RogueCommander
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Posts posted by RogueCommander
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Maybe rock-paper-scissors is too simplistic. Skill is huge. Yuge!!! DeMSU is certainly not auto-win (based on my readings here). In fact, I don't know that I've personally seen it yet in our meta (D/FW area based)
Don't get me wrong, I never said that Armada was like that or that I believed it was going this way. I was only replying against the notion that a rock-paper-scissors system makes healthy game.
This weekend was an epic one for me due to my wife giving me a pass. I played 9 games across Friday-Sun and faced a variety of fleets and opponents. Consistently, the same thing kept coming up; that things will turn very Rocks-Paper-Scissors. For example, the game that spurred this thread was a twin Interdictor w VSD vs my Cracken list. I got crushed. Again and again this played out, lists can definitely be competitive, but chances are you're going to run into something that you just aren't set up to handle.
The guys running these were doing well by building them slippery. Basically Engine Techs and or Madine, and Nav Commands.How is everyone finding the Liberty? The 2 shields on the side are really starting to bother me.. too many things in the game are fast enough to put consistent fire down onto side hulls.
But I think the match-ups are going to start getting like AllWingsStandingBy commenting. Sometimes you're going to get really advantageous games and others will be an uphill battle the whole way.
Yea, unfortunately I think this will be true. X-Wing has very much devolved into something similar. With so many options in X-Wings now, lists can be pretty divergent and there's a pretty influential Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of dynamic, where some games are largely determined when lists are revealed.
Armada has always had a something like this (e.g. back in Wave 2: No Fighters > Dogfighters > Bombers > No Fighters). This will become a greater factor in Armada with things like the Interdictor, which nerfs MC30s/Demolishers hard but has a much more minimal impact in a game against Triple Victory Super Carriers.
The MC30 is my favorite ship, but I'm sad I can no longer run it past Wave 4, because there is always the chance that I might play against an Interdictor kitted out to keep a ship's speed at 0. You can't afford to waste 90 points on a ship that might not get to roll any dice in a certain match-up...
My take away, so far, is that this is healthy. I think tournaments are going to be more competitive as a result. Demo lists are going to struggle with Interdictors, but will be fine against others.... And so on.
I might spend time trying to build an all-comers, but I think this will just get more and more difficult, and be ultimately pointless. For now I'm going to focus on a couple of basic list designs and just try to get really proficient with them.
From my point of view, a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame is the opposite of being healthy for a tournament. Ultimately, the winner should not be determined by the luck of the draw (having good match-ups or not) or the list he brought, but by the skills he have playing the game. Bad match-up will happen, but you should always be able to at least handle it with skills. There is nothing worst in a game than having lost before it even began; that's the opposite of a balanced game.
I agree with your concept here, in that if it ever becomes a completely Rock-Paper-Scissor list situation then that would be bad for the game. But honestly, I'm not that worried about it. It's fine for there to be checks/counters to different fleet elements. But you can always still win. I beat a six ship Rieekan Swarm with a 5 ship DeMSU at regionals. That list should have hard countered me, right? But I was, quite frankly, the better admiral and so I won. (The fellow I played was super awesome at being a people though, which is by far the more important skill.) That's one quick example, but I'm sure we've all won games where we looked across the table at the onset and said "Well...<Insert favorite four letter word here>". Just as I'm sure we've all looked across the table at a list, snickered to ourselves, and then found ourselves humbled 2 hours later. There is such a high skill cap in this game, and I think sometimes that gets lost when we sit here and theory-craft on the forums, because when we do we have to assume equal skill on both sides of the table. In practice though, even when you have two players who are relatively equal in skill, one might be having an off day, or one might catch a spark of real inspiration and pull a miracle out of his aft.
I do believe that Armada is currently balanced and that your victory is more based on your skills than on the fleet you bring.
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So, for example, today after a string of defeats across the weekend, I had probably the best game in my year of playing. It was a variant of Mothma's Angels ©.
It was a blue vs blue, white-knuckle affair. After the game, we were both exhausted, and we just talked. My opponent was the more experienced player and I asked several questions, including what he thought the hard counters were. Demolisher in general and Clonisher in particular came up.
So, in the future, I'll encourage my opponents in friendlies to throw those at me, because I want to figure out how to beat them. If they don't run those, that's ok, because that'll give me a chance to play my lists strengths more effectively.
Maybe I'm being myopic, but if I focus on a few different builds and try to become proficient with them, I'm not going to get overly excited about what I bring to the table, whether I go first or second, or any number of other considerations. I had a blast with this last list today and I want to get really good with it. And, if I manage to beat a 'superior' list, all the better.
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Hmm. I suppose the way I was thinking about it was that if a) I know what my list is 'best' at, I can maximize its strengths and take advantage of mismatches and b) in friendlies, I'd want to practice, practice, practice against lists that I'm not strong against and figure out a way to either tweek my list, or just figure out how to make it work when I'm at a disadvantage.
So that, off the bat, steers me away from one trick ponies where lists are say, Admiral dependent. Rieekan and Dodonna come to mind as Rebel commanders who do okay whether they die or not.
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This is the only miniatures game I've played, so maybe that's my inexperience.
I guess, I take some comfort in the fact that while I may get tromped in a match, it's likely that my opponent might get tromped in the next. I'm speaking in terms of a tourney.
ImpStarDeuces reacted to this -
Also, re: the Liberty.
Bombers can chew it to pieces.
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How is everyone finding the Liberty? The 2 shields on the side are really starting to bother me.. too many things in the game are fast enough to put consistent fire down onto side hulls.
The guys running these were doing well by building them slippery. Basically Engine Techs and or Madine, and Nav Commands.
But I think the match-ups are going to start getting like AllWingsStandingBy commenting. Sometimes you're going to get really advantageous games and others will be an uphill battle the whole way.
Yea, unfortunately I think this will be true. X-Wing has very much devolved into something similar. With so many options in X-Wings now, lists can be pretty divergent and there's a pretty influential Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of dynamic, where some games are largely determined when lists are revealed.
Armada has always had a something like this (e.g. back in Wave 2: No Fighters > Dogfighters > Bombers > No Fighters). This will become a greater factor in Armada with things like the Interdictor, which nerfs MC30s/Demolishers hard but has a much more minimal impact in a game against Triple Victory Super Carriers.
The MC30 is my favorite ship, but I'm sad I can no longer run it past Wave 4, because there is always the chance that I might play against an Interdictor kitted out to keep a ship's speed at 0. You can't afford to waste 90 points on a ship that might not get to roll any dice in a certain match-up...
This weekend was an epic one for me due to my wife giving me a pass. I played 9 games across Friday-Sun and faced a variety of fleets and opponents. Consistently, the same thing kept coming up; that things will turn very Rocks-Paper-Scissors. For example, the game that spurred this thread was a twin Interdictor w VSD vs my Cracken list. I got crushed. Again and again this played out, lists can definitely be competitive, but chances are you're going to run into something that you just aren't set up to handle.
My take away, so far, is that this is healthy. I think tournaments are going to be more competitive as a result. Demo lists are going to struggle with Interdictors, but will be fine against others.... And so on.
I might spend time trying to build an all-comers, but I think this will just get more and more difficult, and be ultimately pointless. For now I'm going to focus on a couple of basic list designs and just try to get really proficient with them.
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I ran this variant today, and I love it. I'm not used to quite this much fighter coordination, but once I get the hang of it,...
I drew, and then lost a match with it, but it was scary even in inexperienced hands.
Good design! Thank you : )
Dodonna's Trap
Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 389/400
Commander: General Dodonna
Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields
Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Yavaris ( 5 points)
- Flight Commander ( 3 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 77 total ship cost
Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
- Salvation ( 7 points)
- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)
- Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 83 total ship cost
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Quantum Storm ( 1 points)
- Leia Organa ( 3 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 35 total ship cost
[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- General Dodonna ( 20 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Toryn Farr ( 7 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- Bomber Command Center ( 8 points)
= 60 total ship cost
1 X-Wing Squadrons ( 13 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
1 Nym ( 21 points)
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)
3 B-Wing Squadrons ( 42 points)
2015-16 © Armada Warlords
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Lol, yes Konstantine does nothing. Well, I guess I don't have to worry about him anymoresnip
I play Ozzel. Konstantine did/does nothing.
Apart from the staight up hard counter i don't care for double Indic lists. If you want to spend 220 ish points for a split of 4 red dice front battery be my guest.
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yeah. also two dictors dont have that much fire power.
At medium range they have enough when you are slowed to speed 1 for a couple of rounds.
Snipafist and coastcityo reacted to this -
Just couldn't push enough damage. Fair enough, I didn't focus fire as well as I should've, but when I did my mc30 burst damage was neutered 3x and combined with the heavy engineering, what I did do didn't matter.Huh. So what happened to you in the 2interdictor konstantine game?
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So after months of theory crafting, I've now gotten to play against Interdictors 3 times now. I'm rebel only, so I e tried out Liberty, GR75s, Cracken and Madine in various lists.
Caveats, with the following disclaimer: It's early days, this is just a first impression. New tactics will emerge.
The Liberty is more than just a souped up Neb but, like the Neb, it's a bit quirky.
Gonzatis and GR75s.... Ok, cool, but not too crazy. Slicers can be annoying.
1 Interdictor... Ok, not too bad.
1 Interdictor with Konstantine... Can be gross.
2 Interdictors with Konstantine.... I'm worried it's almost game breaking. Between Projection Experts, Scramblers, Engineering 5, AND all the speed shenanigans... It's a lot.
Sorry I don't have a detailed series of AARs.
Other thoughts?
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Sato. . . If I make top 7 or 8th place for Vassal I will run a Nebulon Sato Fleet!
They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!
I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.
I will challenge you and prove differently!The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.
It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!
With Madine, I'm thinking about giving them Engine Techs and getting aggressive.... Probably a bad idea, but it'll shock my opponent for a sec to have Salvation in his face right away.
Then it'll die.
Oh.
Salvation, Sato, Spinal, CF....
Red, red, black, black, black at long range.
Oh my....
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Flipping your squads to 4 XWings and 1 Rogue will also let you put Spinal Armaments on Salvation. Salvation likes to snipe and that evade comes in handy for that. If you keep TRC, try to get Walex on there.
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They really do. People want to go fast with Nebs but you cant, they need to react!
I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.
I will challenge you and prove differently!The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.
It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!
With Madine, I'm thinking about giving them Engine Techs and getting aggressive.... Probably a bad idea, but it'll shock my opponent for a sec to have Salvation in his face right away.
Then it'll die.
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I disagree as well. They are tricky, fragile and unforgiving , but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed.
I will challenge you and prove differently!The Neb is probably the one ship that most needs a general buff. The design team fumbled that one. Sorry, but that's the sad truth.
It just goes to show that Rebels have to be more skilled than those simple point and shoot Imp triangles. Mwahahaha!
Lyraeus and TheEasternKing reacted to this -
I laughed because it's kind of an obvious point.
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You combine different things until you find what works for you
Lol, thanks.
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Thanks!
We got into a discussion of what is physically 'logical', but strictly speaking, the game doesn't really consistently follow physics : )
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Couldn't find an answer in search.
Are tractor beams affected by ships or obstacles? I was slowed down through a ship and an asteroid.
Secondly, do obstructions double up? If I was also being shot at through 2 obstructions, does that mean two dice have to be dropped, or is it always just one?
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With Wave 3 and 4, I was planning on 2 Liberties, 2-3 Gr75s, maybe one Gonzati for the cards. Being rebel only, I feel that lets me buy a little more. I see what you're saying though. Unless you regularly play friendlies over 400 points, there's not much incentive to over purchase.
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For me, I get restless and rarely focus on one list for very long. This results in rarely tabling (due to lack of consistent practice), but I like experimenting and variety, so there is that.
A negative result of this though, is that after almost a year of play, I don't know that I've settled on a specific 'play style, or even that I know what it is'. I try to simply play the fleet I've put together, regardless of whether or not it fits any personal style.
My thoughts are that this may finally have to change with Waves 3-5. There are so many options now, that if I have any interest in competitive play, I'm going to have to settle down and start really looking for that fleet that reflects my thinking and skill.
So, my question is this - how did you find your playstyle and lists that complement it? I talked to some of the San Antonio guys at Regional and I think one of them had been playing the same basic fleet for months with small tweaks here and there. How do you deal with striking that balance between expertise with a list and not getting bored running the same basic fleet over and over?
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At a game just last night we were discussing something similar, though with maybe a different take-away. I think we may see more specialist, rather than utility, lists. With the variety of combos available with Waves 3-5, I think people will obviously experiment more, but that fleets will be less and less flexible, in the sense that it is increasingly difficult to create a fleet that is a 'take all comers' type.Through wave two, you could reasonably predict combos you might face in your local meta. Now, I don't think it's going to be so easy. If points stay at 400, I think solid generalist fleets will become difficult to put together.
As far as too many options/not remembering stuff, I think it's just a matter of time and exposure. I love all the possibilities and options.
Also, if we're talking face to face friendly matches, I'm struggling to understand why a single match would take 3 hours, unless a lot of time is spent chatting and it's all very relaxed. 2 hours, sure, but 3 seems very slow play to me.
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I like this list a lot, It looks fun to play. The only things I would likely do is swap one X Wing for a HWK. I'd also pick Admo over Foresight and see if there's points for Lando somewhere.
I'd also swap AG for Most Wanted and out Mothma on the CR90.
Mothma's Angels
in Star Wars: Armada Fleet Builds
Posted · Edited by RogueCommander
So, after the weekend, here are my current tweeks:
Dodonna's Trap v2
Faction: Rebel Alliance Points: 388/400
Commander: General Dodonna
Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions
Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points) - Yavaris ( 5 points) - Flight Commander ( 3 points) - Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points) - Spinal Armament ( 9 points) = 77 total ship cost
Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points) - Salvation ( 7 points) - Raymus Antilles ( 7 points) - Fighter Coordination Team ( 3 points) - Spinal Armament ( 9 points) = 83 total ship cost
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points) - Quantum Storm ( 1 points) - Leia Organa ( 3 points) - Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points) - Bomber Command Center ( 8 points) = 35 total ship cost
[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points) - General Dodonna ( 20 points) - Bright Hope ( 2 points) - Toryn Farr ( 7 points) - Boosted Comms ( 4 points) - Bomber Command Center ( 8 points) = 59 total ship cost
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1 Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
1 Nym ( 21 points)
1 X-Wing Squadron ( 13 points)
3 B-Wing Squadrons ( 42 points)
Fleet created with Armada Warlords