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  1. Maybe they were referring to decks built around the card United. If you had 5 non SLH peeps with different/no faction alignments you gave each of them +4F and negated move actions targeting them. There were definitely decks built around it during its legality.
  2. "True Rainbow" didn't exist largely because of how dishonor was structured. Having dishonor meta effectively printed solely on in clan peeps coupled with blood money issues, it hugely incentivized mono clan builds. That's before you even get into the F:G differential mechanics(clan discount). when personalities could overcome these issues, they were run quite often and in every military deck that could field them. Attributing "true rainbow" standards from games that never included honor mechanics isn't a fair comparison.
  3. They could always go the 40KQ route and have each stronghold come with signature cards like house guards and such. If you keep the number small enough that it wouldn't effectively pre-build your deck, but are the jumping off points that help facilitate a synergy for mono clan decks. You get a scaling bonus for staying in clan, but at the expense of using the larger multiclan "best of" card pool.
  4. It's not about being GOOD good, like a D&D alignment. It's about what's culturally accepted as good. Rokugsn is a theocracy. The emperor is and always has been the religious and spiritual leader of an empire that worships Tengoku. He's effectively the magic super pope to rokugan. That's why when the emperor decrees someone a fortune, they Actually become one. They don't have to be nice or kind to be "good". You can do despicable things so long as you adhere to the faith. By openly accepting and worshipping jigoku, you're doing the one thing that you can't do.
  5. If the Spider Need to keep the shadowlands taint to be unapologetically evil, that would mean the taint and by extension jigoku is the actual evil in that situation. With tengoku being the diametric opposite of jigoku in the setting, Tengoku Would in fact, be considered good. There are even several items that were gifted to The clans by iweko I who has tengoku's divine blessing that have the descriptor "heavenly", and numerous titles bestowed to emperors with similar line. With the emperor/ess being the voice of The celestial heavens in the mortal realm, all the laws and edicts(or the rules as you put it) they create by rokugani perspective would be "good". So the assertion that the rules aren't good or evil don't work. Either the taint isn't necessary to be evil, in which case arguing that the spider need to keep it for the good of the setting doesn't hold merit, or it is necessary in which case your description of what you want in the spider is a direct contradiction. If it was unintentional, that's fine but it still makes your assessment wrong. If it was intentional, the have your cake(be unapologetically evil) and eat it too(allowed to participate in society) argument is actually valid.
  6. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that "the setting Needs the spider need to do"?
  7. Personally, I blame diamond/lotus for a lot of this. When the ccg rolled out super specific clan themes in an era where more and more prizes were becoming a "pick a character to get exp'ed or do this" type prizes, it pushed elements of certain clans to the forefront that while flavorful weren't really designed to be the primary story identity of the clan. This persisted so often for so long, that's it's almost become ingrained in our way of thinking that each clan needs some unique superpower or elite unit/focus that no one else has to justify inclusion. Pulling away from that, and focusing on the philosophical differences and viewpoints on interclan conflicts opens FFG up for more wiggle room and gettin down with the samurai drama vibe. Spider being born during/after this period unfortunately leaves them with no fall back plan. They can't just go back to what they were before, because they didn't exist. And the power they do have, largely flies in the face of what the setting was established as. I hope FFG can come up with a way to reconcile that, but I also don't wish that the way it's done, is to just let them keep said problematic superpower either.
  8. They have done that though. They pulled the rug out from togashi in order for the dragon to fit better within the overall story. They have been a bit directionless, but are still a functional member of rokugsn and the setting in general.
  9. Huitzil37, do you have ANY factual evidence to support the idea that all the Spider changes have been for the better of the setting? i can certainly point to where pro spider players have expressed the point I bring up.
  10. while I appreciate you telling me what I think, I'll speak for myself thank you. Our disagreement is that I(and am clearly not alone) don't see the changes that involved the spider as being beneficial to the empire or the setting. Then be the antagonists. There's 0 issue with that. Being the antagonist AND a protagonist, which is what AEG turned the spider into is an issue. I don't see how I can possibly make that any clearer than I already have. Yes and now that we don't NEED the spider to be able to do all those things, why keep something around in the same form when you yourself admit nobody liked it? And how does spider "work" and accomplish what it needs to when there are no present "needs" due to fresh start. How is the spider's predicament not baggage?
  11. Pragmatic is not the word I would use for a hugely xenophobic caste based state where spilt tea can result in a centuries long blood feuds. The meat shield argument doesn't hold weight either. Instilling an enemy at your gates to avoid having an enemy at your gates makes 0 sense.
  12. Making the empire look more pragmatic at the spider issue IS a huge change to the setting. That's what you're not getting.
  13. Everyone who thinks Order must be maintained over Chaos, and that respecting the Spider in a courtly honorable fashion maintains Order and thus does a better job of protecting what Rokugan believes in (which is Order) than allowing the rules of the system to break because you really, really, reallllly dislike someone the rules say you should treat with courtesy. Stop looking at this as "giving things to the Spider" or "doing things for the Spider" as if it is unfair to give them things or do things for them. That's nonsense. It's nonfunctional. That model has completely died, we are not in a mode where every prize given to one side is a prize not given to everyone else -- if you keep seeing it that way you are wrong. The only things I am interested in giving to the Spider are things that allow the Spider to serve the entire setting better. The entire setting is served better if the Spider can be the Vegeta of Rokugan, and if people have to play nice with them at court because that is what maintains Order (and if the Spider must play nice at court with people they would rather be murdering because that is what maintains Order). It allows much more interesting personal and Clan-scale conflict. Spider are carrying a lot of weight because they are antagonists and antagonists are really, really important to the functioning of a story. Forcing the courtly clans to interact with them, sipping tea through clenched teeth is not something that benefits the Spider at the expense of the courtly clans, it is something that benefits the courtly clans by involving them in the conflict and giving them more opportunities to show off their personal and clan identities by placing them in situations where they are tested. In-character, Spider at court is bad for all of the other clans. Out of character, Spider at court is much better for all of them. Right now, we want to find otu the best out-of-character state, and then come up with the proper justification to arrive there. This isn't about prizes, it's about coherent worldbuilding. That isn't a counterargument. I am saying, the world where X is true is much better at doing what the game wants to do, than the world where X is not true. The game is being relaunched. Let's launch it as a world where X is true, and make whatever other decisions are necessary to make X true. "It's about coherent worldbuilding" is not a coherent counterargument. I want to build a coherent world. I want to build a coherent world that accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish. If your model of the world cannot accommodate this goal, then let's make another coherent model that can. It's a counter-argument to the notion that my position is motivated by concerns over prizes and whatnot, however. Also, I'm not looking at this as a reset. And yes, the Spider always have been villains, not anti-heroes or some poor misunderstood "minority". You should look at it as a reset, because this is the one chance you got to make a clean reset. L5R was not doing well, and the fact that people liked it doesn't mean they loved everything about it. The purpose of a reboot or reset is to take the parts people liked, that made them care, and build around them, emphasize them, allow them to do the most work and remove everything that undermined them or prevented people from connecting to them. Reboots (at their best) turn stories people loved in spite of the story's best efforts, into stories people just love. L5R really, really needs that treatment. Rebooting the game, especially one that advertises player story involvement, isn't something you can do and just return to business as usual. But when the game gets taken to a new company and launched into a new form incompatible with the previous, that is the perfect time to reboot it. That opportunity won't come up again; if FFG's relaunch continued from the same story, and they realize "wow this has a lot of problems preventing us from doing what we need to be doing," then they are boned. You're right it is a chance for a fresh start. Which is exactly why these threads have been coming up. Trying to come up with a way for the Spider to not be pariahs. The crux of the issue is that (some)pro spider players want to change the way everything else works to stay the same, while the anti spider side of the argument doesn't feel that changing that much of the setting just for the sake of spider being able to keep the taint/be bad guys is healthy for the game.
  14. You mean where Babidi casts a magic spell on vegeta to turn his evil on? There's a difference between being coerced into doing bad things, and just doing bad things. The spider didn't have one oops moment multiple story arcs into their redemption. They have consistently done them throughout the entirety of their existence. Vegeta was a huge jerkwad, but he never actually followed through on all his jibber jabber. The timing of when those evil deeds happen matters.
  15. The problem with trying to use vegeta, or even piccolo as an example is that once they went to team Z warriors, they stopped being bad guys. They weren't killing random townsfolk, blowing up cities, or trying to conquer the world anymore. Spider still murder people, wield forbidden magics, unleashed a flipping biological weapon on the lion and as of pre Onyx are literally trying to bring hell on earth and take over the "world". The analogy just doesn't fit no matter how hard you try and slap the dark anti-hero bumper sticker on them. The Spider are still villains.
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