Jump to content

Moto Subodei

Members
  • Content Count

    287
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Moto Subodei

  1. I get the point I just disagree with the position. If you are feeling irrelevant in an RPG because someone rolls more dice than you, then there is something going wrong with the RPG you are playing in. Whether it be how you are playing the character or how the GM is running the game. The problem you are outlining is not at all unique to shugenja. Infact, the problem doesn't even extend to all elements of shugenja. There are other characters you can build to be as damaging. You even have to specifically build the shug in the first place to be bonkers good. IE. shove all your exp into one ring. If someone isn't min-maxing a shug, then they are going to feel weak.
  2. "(Also, I can't tell if you're using the general or specific "you". I really wish "one" as a generalized reference was still in common use in English, as in "At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what one likes".)" There is quite a funny irony here. In that you (Yes the specific you!) have lamented the fact that the generalisation of "you" is now commonplace in everyday English in place of the traditional "one", and then go on to use the modern "Generalization" over the traditional "Generalisation"! Funny that. If I need tips on grammar I will send you a pm. As an Irishman, you are lucky I am using "you" at all as oppossed to "ye"! - To pick up ont he Scorpion thing. Nobody trusts the scorpion, but it is dishonorable behaviour to presume distrust of another samurai, it isn't really that confusing. And about the shugenja not being powerful...have you ever read anything at all outside corebooks? there is around twenty years of history out there on the internet for free with a massive amount of how powerful shugenja are. You have been using the core books this entire thread as a crutch to back up arguments through omission, and selectively ignoring twenty plus years of material that is available for free online.
  3. Exactly this! Just becasue you CAN min max and be all about numero uno, doesn't mean it is the most fun! This is what RPG's are about! Fun with friends and co-operation, not worrying about who is most op!
  4. This exact situation is already written into the lore Spells are also prohibited from duels. "The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game." So it isn't about balance? But it is about balance? How is the second part different to an issue about balance? What am I missing? Despite being written into the lore, some of the complaints about Shugenja seem to be based on it being missed or ignore in some games -- I've seen several people post examples of Shugenja using specific spells to dominate social interactions and supplant Courtiers, for instance. You can't really blame the setting when this issue occurs. It is the GM's role to know that if a shug does this, it is super frowned upon. There are those social ramifications you were talking about, you can't blame the setting/lore when the GM doesn't know this, and lets people away with it for free. If the concern is certain spells can have a huge effect, yep it is true. And it comes down to balance again. Again, why should a non shug courtier expect to lay the social smackdown on a shug courtier? The shug has the elements on his side and IS going to win. But everyone in court should now know he is a scumbag for using the kami to influence the course of a political discussion. That is the consequence. There is a reason why scorpion air shugs focus on casting spells discretely! This is the main thematic motivation for that. With regards to hogging the game. I think it is people playing the characters that do that, rather than the "class" they play. I have had friends who have ruined games with things apart from Shugenja, infact the guys who usually play shugs never really went about dominating the game. The most abusive things I saw were crab and shiba bushi, but my friend playing that is a power gamer, and decided to Hog combat. Can you build a shug to hog the game? Absolutely. However you can also hog the game with other things. I don't think you can really bring the "legal" / mechanical fairness into it, given that the mechanics are a reflection of the theme. And when thematically shugs are bastions of power, mechanically, I think it would be inconsistent to not reflect that. It really comes down to your outlook. If you look at someone in your party who is "more powerful" than you with envy, then you are probably someone who should just play the powerful stuff, because that is how you measure your enjoyment of the game. If you are someone who's primary motivation is to immerse yourself into the lore and theme of it, then you don't mind having really powerful guys around you as it makes the adventure feel more epic! At the end of the day, it is kind of down to what you like. I just personally prefer that theme trumps mechanical balance.
  5. This exact situation is already written into the lore Spells are also prohibited from duels. "The issue isn't one of strict balance -- it's one of whether a certain type of character routinely outshines every and any other type of character, in almost any situation that might come up in the game." So it isn't about balance? But it is about balance? How is the second part different to an issue about balance? What am I missing?
  6. This is the point a lot of people have been making. And it is true. They are very powerful, and spells are very powerful. The problem I have with it is this. Why does everything need to be around the same power level? There is an assumption that this is how it should be, and I think it is a thought process/mentality that comes from things like video games and card games. RPG's are very much separate from these and shouldn't necessarily follow the same rules of balance. To me it would make absolutely no sense at all, if Shugenja were on the same power level of bushi. They can control the elements, alter reality etc. They are not wizards per se but they can call on favours from the spirits that make up the world of Rokugan. How can, and why should, a bushi be at the same power level as a character that can do that? I understand there are people who get different things out of RPG's. And I have all different kinds of gamer in my group. We pretty much have always acknowledged that shugs are really powerful. All it meant is that you have to find ways around them. It's hard to face a fire/earth shug in combat, so you just need to find a way around him. Alter his scrolls, poison him, call him out in a duel, there are hundreds of ways around it! I've also never played in a party that had more than 2 shugs (and 2 was a rarity), people usually play what they like in an rpg rather than what's OP (although we all know THAT guy who power games! ). So yeah. Imo, it comes down to your expectation. If your expectation is that all "classes" should be on par then I understand the position. I just think that is an assumption some people have, and a view they have on the game, which they are perfectly entitled to. I however don't agree with that assumption! Nonetheless, nice post!
  7. They are also charging 80$ for a single medium-sized character model, and it is something FFG can't exactly pull off with the L5R RPG. Indeed. I wasn't at all saying FFG should behave in anyway like them. The point was to demonstrate how companies are turning to EBook platform.
  8. I do like the idea of E-books myself. One big change I've seen on the gaming market with this is GamesWorkshop, who now provided the codex for the fantasy setting (age of sigmar now) for free online, instead of charging 30 or so dollars for it in the shops. While I don't suggest l5r rpg be given for free, I think it does show that with the E-book thing it could be pretty cheap. There is also the issue of Piracy. What services like Netflix and Spotify have shown is that if you provide users with a platform to pay for music online, you can make a business out of that. If the legitimate business does not have an online presence, then the pirated copies become the dominant online norm. This also harks to the general Ebooks debate. Personally I like to have a physical RPG book rather than on my tablet or laptop. If Ebooks became the dominant thing, and pushed the viability of physical RPG books out of the market, I would most definitely miss them.
  9. Still needs to be make moolas though! If people are not willing to make it profitable, then the product will just disappear rather than the price coming down to suit those who can't/won't meet a profitable price! I find with a lot of things in gaming, because they are sometimes so hard to make profitable, I personally go the extra mile for it. For example, I will ask my local store to get something in even though I have to wait around for him longer and pay more for it than I would on the internet. I only do this because I want a local gaming shop. If everyone got their product online instead of in the shop they'd go out of business. I'm the same with things like rpg's and card games. Because they are so niche, I think they need extra support from their customers. It is in my interest that they stick around as a product.
  10. I always look at how many hours I get out of the book as a guideline as to whether it is a worthy investment. I've gotten thousands of hours playing l5r RPG's. If I could work out how much it cost me per hour after investing in a book it would work out at a couple of cent per hour. I am not sure what other hobby would work out as that cost effective. Also, 50 Dollars! Have to pay 60 Euro for 4th ed core book here!
  11. Also Pretty late to the party. My vote would be Yes, however, it should not be the ONLY way for storyline to be affected. That said, the storlyine prizes for world finals and euros should be the "biggest" decisions imo.
  12. I agree. Shugenja aren't OP, everything else is just weak by comparison (an issue that only truly appeared with 4th Ed.) You should totally chuck that out the window! The (original) Agasha drew the majority of their strength from the power and fury of the mountains and volcanoes in the Dragon lands (namely from Wrath of the Kami), so Fire and Earth make sense for their strengths (why they didn't get a double aff/def I'll always wonder). But "affinity" is supposed to be a bloodline thing, and they chose Fire for the Agasha, so having Tamori Shaitung just up and decide one day, "Ya know what? Ima be Earth now," has never, ever, made any sense. Is it though? I was always under the impression that affinities came from the focus of the school they were taught in up until their gempukku rather than any natural elemental alignment. For Example, if a Bayushi joined the Soshi school, who had no blood tie at all to the the Soshi family, he would still have an affinity to air, because that is the main element he was taught to communicate with. The same goes for clan hostages who join schools in other clans, and gaining +Reflex bonus from bushi schools, you get the reflex from training. I thought the only bloodline bonus was the family name one. School bonuses are down to the training. As for the Tamori. It makes a lot of sense for them to be earth considering the area they live in. Lots of earth kami hang out in areas of lots of mountains, so are much easier to communicate with and summon. It's one of the areas that I won't disagree that the rules and the lore contradict each other. From a setting perspective, it's inherited. From a mechanics perspective, you learn it. Is it mentioned in the lore? Not being obtuse, genuinely curious as I don't have access to the books right now
  13. "I argue vehemently about how much better shugenja are than other schools in L5R 4e." I stopped here! I absolutely hate reading "omg its op nerf pls" walls of text!
  14. You should totally chuck that out the window! The (original) Agasha drew the majority of their strength from the power and fury of the mountains and volcanoes in the Dragon lands (namely from Wrath of the Kami), so Fire and Earth make sense for their strengths (why they didn't get a double aff/def I'll always wonder). But "affinity" is supposed to be a bloodline thing, and they chose Fire for the Agasha, so having Tamori Shaitung just up and decide one day, "Ya know what? Ima be Earth now," has never, ever, made any sense. Is it though? I was always under the impression that affinities came from the focus of the school they were taught in up until their gempukku rather than any natural elemental alignment. For Example, if a Bayushi joined the Soshi school, who had no blood tie at all to the the Soshi family, he would still have an affinity to air, because that is the main element he was taught to communicate with. The same goes for clan hostages who join schools in other clans, and gaining +Reflex bonus from bushi schools, you get the reflex from training. I thought the only bloodline bonus was the family name one. School bonuses are down to the training. As for the Tamori. It makes a lot of sense for them to be earth considering the area they live in. Lots of earth kami hang out in areas of lots of mountains, so are much easier to communicate with and summon.
  15. I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths. Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both? Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh! The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense. I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable? The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to. But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste. I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game. I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system. Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story. Have I gotten your intentions correct? Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards! You are pretty spot on. As for why and how I got there, it really stems from how I play the game. I play in almost exclusively two different settings. The first is in Heroes of Rokugan, which if you are not aware is a huge living campaign. What this means is that I am not sitting down to play with my friends, necessarily, but with 5-6 random strangers with all of us trying to make sure our clans interest cones out on top during pre made modules. This means that the rules need to stand up to bring squeezed for all they are worth in a competitive environment. It was here that I learned the destructive pet that a combat minded shugenja can bring to bear, and I felt like a chump for playing a Bushi to focus on combat. My other play outlet is a parlor larp (no touching) where we get really involved with court and cultural shenanigans. It was here that I learned that an air shugenja can laugh circles around crane and scorpion courtiers. These are very different settings than me and a couple of my buddies playing regularly around my kitchen table. But I really need those rules we are given to hold up top those types of players who will squeeze it for all the practical power they can for their characters, social norms of the setting be damned. Nothing FORCES that Phoenix fire shugenja to try abd keep his honor up, and he may be unusual/unpopular with his clan at a 1.2 personal honor, but the setting says he is do rare that the clan wouldn't put him down as an embarrassment either. Given your experiences with shugs, i can understand your position. I think I have probably been quite lucky with my group of rp'ers. We definitely have power gamers but I think we generally had most of our stuff done without dice that I never felt there was a huge amount of abuse. The most abusive thing I did see was Hida bushi. 1v1 they just murder pretty much anything! (think it was first ed)
  16. I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths. Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both? Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh! The point would be to get rid of the spell list entirely, outside of commune, summon, and sense. I frankly don't see the need for the big laundry list of powers. Its too versatile when every other powerin the game is highly specific. A Bushi or courtier or monk gets a single effect no matter how they plan on building their character, why do shugenja get to be so more heavily customizable? The more I go over my own opinion in my head and read this thread, the more I think I'd be most happy if Bushi and curious got more things to play with. For Bushi I would need about 30 extra kata that were better balanced with not - awful requirements to buy them. And courtier would need an inclusion of. ... something to really bite on to. But my argument has always been that the mechanics should show the world. And right now the mechanics say that I can freshest entire armies with a handful of fire or earth shugenja. Therefore the fiction needs to match. And don't tell me "blah blah honor blah blah social expectations. " not everyone is honorable, and it works only take s handful of dishonorable shugenja to get together and lay allot of these setting assumptions (like Bushi are who you should have fighting your battles) to waste. I think in the example you give, that the fiction needs to mirror the mechanics of shugenja isn't the right way round. I have always viewed it, from 1st ed to 4th ed, that Shugenja were always very powerful in the storyline, this led to them being more powerful (in some ways) in the mechanics of the RPG as it needed to rpesent an accurate depiction. Not trying to nitpick, but I think it is important to acknowledge the sequence of events in order to understand the intended direction of the game. I see what you are getting at about making things more mechanically robust. I would argue however, that spells as they are in the book, are about the only mechanically static representation of shugenja's powers. Without them, you just have them as they are now, except to use a spell, you'd go the sense, commune, summon route, have a conversation with the kami to get them to do something for you. Sounds much more laborious, and much much more open to subjectivity than the current system. Also, the point you touched on here. about wanting bushi to be as versatile as shugs. You seem to be of the mind that they should be "equal" in power level. Is wanting this equality, from anything in particular? Is it you personally have found bushi underpowered in comparison? I think the presumption that they should be equal is a very personal view, which is fair if you feel that way, but I do not think the intention was ever there, for shugenja and Bushi to be on par with regards to power level, neither in terms of mechanics OR story. Have I gotten your intentions correct? Correct me if I have picked up what you are saying backwards!
  17. I always thought the reason shugs didn't have rank techs was because they get a pick of spells according to their alignment. They essentially have school ranks (much more powerful ones) which are more versatile and can be tailored to develop a large variety of unique paths. Are you proposing ditching spells, and instead of having rank techniques? Or having both? Not sure how you can get more mystical than speaking to spirits to cast spells tbh!
  18. I really like the concept of court battles, and like the matrix you put there . One question though. Do you feel there is a risk of losing the actual social interaction by tying it in so rigorously to a mechanical framework? I think with battle this stuff makes sense, because it is a mass brawl and melee, but mass battles always felt less personal to me than skirmishes.
  19. I misunderstood what he was saying at the time. Haha! Goddam youuuu! This is how rumours start!!
  20. This post right here. Imo, sums up the problem of this thread. This part in particular. "but honestly, I worry that we'd just see more than a few posts attacking the starting principles instead of treating them as the "givens" of the discussion in that particular thread." I agree with you Kinzen. This thread became pointless about 10 pages in, at least.
  21. See... You haven't presented any contradictions by quoting any of this. Tev already addressed it, but it really needs repeating, since SO MUCH of this discussion has revolved around how you've "already pointed out/quoted/said what needs to be said" (paraphrasing your position). •Great Clans, pg 51: And? Nothing about this quote is contradicted by mechanics or lore at all. Nothing. •TGC, pg 116: Yes, this is how the Kitsu function. As shugenja, they are priests of the kami. As Kitsu specifically, they are priests of the Lion Ancestors. Again, no contradictions at all. •TGC, pg 182: Just like with the Asahina above, quoting history fluff doesn't actually present any problems between lore, mechanics, or both. What are you getting at here? •TGC, pg 183: So they are more learned than anyone else, which absolutely plays through in the presented lore and mechanics. Where's the issue? I wanted to articulate this when it was said, but I felt like it would take me too long to try and explain. You summed up what I wanted to say pretty well.
  22. Why do you feel the need to be so rude? Have you thought for a moment that Tev might not be a native English speaker? Even if he is, I still understand what he is saying and the point he is trying to get across, so why does it matter? Just because people disagree with you, does not make them wrong. You are behaving like there is a wrong or a right in this discussion, or that it is an argument to be won. It isn't. You cannot "win" the argument. You need to accept other people have a different opinion to you and move on. It is very immature to stoop down to personal insults because somebody on the internet is disagreeing with you.
  23. That's very much beside the point at hand, however, so I'm not going to debate it one bit. The point is to provide examples of the books telling us that shugenja are involved in "all matters spiritual", and that the role of shugenja in Rokugan is "a tradition of magic and religion". People not get jokes in this internet age? Besides the higher glory "priest" would be the one who gets heard the most (not counting sneaky courtiers), not counting someone who convinced an official that another path might be the better option. BUT I suppose the shugenja in question could just argue against the choice? Nah man, internet forums are where you massage your own ego and prove everyone else wrong!
  24. I can't officially confirm it. But I believe the answer is yes. They own it all. The only thing I am not sure about is, whether or not they own burning sands now or not too. It is so heavily linked with l5r, I am not sure if they do or not.
  25. Have taken up the AGOT 2nd ed lcg too, and there are definitely things I think that could work. It really does capture the warring clans theme. One area where it would fall down imo, is that it doesn't project the mass battle feel that you would expect from L5R. I have been playing warhammer conquest too. And again that system also has similarities to l5r. The planet system is something that could really work in L5R. I think a mix between the two somehow could work for l5r. I would however, like to see a new system put in place to do the IP justice, rather than a patchwork pattern of other existing games.
×
×
  • Create New...