Jump to content

TheItsyBitsySpider

Members
  • Content Count

    368
  • Joined

  • Last visited


Reputation Activity

  1. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from HirumaShigure in Kaito Kosori bowed at home area   
    Nothing on her card states that she ignores the participation clause in skill checks either, it doesn't address the rule of participation at all in any "direct" manner, being home is a requirement to activate her ability which gives a flat statement of "it contributes its skill to your side".This matters because the logic required to get to overruling the Participation clause is important to note, because I think it is related to how to resolve her when she is bowed. You cannot have a rule that works only some of the time after all and the Jade rule should function consistently.

    This is important, because the statement in the card text is flat out. It is not written as, "it contributes as long as it meets other conditions in the RR", otherwise it would contribute but not be counted due to the skill check rules. Its end result of "it contributes its skill to you side" is a seemingly closed statement in the case of this card. If you meet its requirements you get to contribute it's skill to your side.

    These requirements on the card are:

    1. It is an air conflict
    2. You have a character participating
    3. Kaito is in the home area

    When these conditions are met, her ability is active and states that "It contributes its skill to your side". THIS is where all the contradictions need to be addressed and resolved with regards to the Jade rule. There is one thing to note, based on her card text and the requirements given for her ability it is possible to be in a situation where you have a bowed Kaito whose ability is actively telling the game state that she is contributing her skill to your side. Being unbowed is not a requirement to have her ability  become active, if it was NONE of this would be a problem.
     Lets say she is unbowed. Why do we say she can override the participation rule. She doesn't specify she can, infact she doesn't say she is participating at all. All she says is that if she is home and meets the other requirements she contributes.

    So now we logically try to apply her active effect to the game state. The RRG comes up, saying that "participating characters contribute to conflicts", in response we then acknowledge that, because she tells us she is contributing and the rule book is showing her not meeting the condition that a contradiction now exists. This is a direct contradiction, the card says "yes, she is contributing" and the rule reference says "No, because she is not participating".

    The Jade rule comes into play at this time. It looks at the game state and see Kaito's ability contradicting the Rules Reference and sides with the card effect over the RRG requirements. The Jade rule lets Kaito contribute despite her not participating as her ability overrules the requirement to be participating. Now that the contradiction is resolved logically the game continues.
    So her ability, state and location are important to help us understand where a contradiction is coming from and logically work out what overrides what due to the Jade Rule. We end up with something like:

    "Her ability is actively telling the board state she contributes, and she is home which should exclude her normally from contributing due to only participating characters being able to contribute skill, therefor she will overrule the participation clause in the skill check rules due to the Jade Rule specifying that card abilities override Rules Reference Rules."

    So now we have a framework of what is happening here. Now lets make her bowed, all the other conditions the same, all requirements met, everything else the same. We are left with a bowed Kaito telling the game state that she is contributing to your side due to her ability.

    Unlike the unbowed scenerio, where the only contradicting RRG rule is that participating characters contribute, this time we have that one and a new one, bowed characters do not contribute to conflicts.
    So we logically try to apply her active effect to the game state. The RRG comes up, saying that "participating characters contribute to conflicts" and then saying that "Bowed characters do not contribute".

    So first we can resolve the first contradiction the same way we did above. Her location and her ability tell the table what she is doing and the Jade rule is allowing her to overrule rules that would prevent it. We end up with the same conclusion.  

    "Her ability is actively telling the board state she contributes, and she is home which should exclude normally her from contributing due to only participating characters being able to contribute skill, therefor she will overrule the participation clause in the skill check rules due to the Jade Rule specifying that card abilities override Rules Reference Rules."

    Ok NOW the bowed contradiction.  We acknowledge that right now we have a bowed character who's ability is telling us she is contributing and the rule book is showing her not meeting the condition to contribute, her being bowed. The card says "yes, she is contributing" and the rule reference says "No, because she is bowed," showing us that a contradiction now exists. This is a direct contradiction, the card says "yes, she is contributing" and the rule reference says "No, because she is bowed".

    Now, if rules are consistent in this game, the The Jade rule comes into play at this time. It looks at the game state and sees Kaito's ability contradicting the Rules Reference and sides with the card effect over the RRG requirements.The Jade rule lets Kaito contribute despite her bowed state as her ability overrules the rules stating that bowed characters do not contribute. Now that the contradiction is resolved logically the game continues.
    So again her ability, state, and location are important to help us understand where a contradiction is coming from and logically work out what overrides what due to the Jade Rule. We end up with something like:
    "Her ability is actively telling the board state she contributes, and she is bowed which should exclude her normally from contributing due to only ready characters being able to contribute skill, therefor she will overrule the readied clause in the skill check rules and the Bowed characters rules due to the Jade Rule specifying that card abilities override Rules Reference Rules."

    The Reason why the answer by the developer is a problem is that both of these are contradictions that occur, with rules that the card itself does not directly reference, rather infir due to the state and location of the card in relation to its abilities being active. Both can be analyzed and worked out the same way using the same Jade Rule, yet in his response the developer states that it overrides one specific contradiction stated in the book and not others, but that isn't mentioned on the card, nor something that the Jade rule would seemingly differentiate against.

    If this is to be errata to Kaito, them adding a "must be unbowed" requirement to activate her ability,  then this problem goes away. But without that then the logic for why only applying the Jade Rule at one situation where the card contradicts the rules, but not at another isn't actually resolved. You have a rule being inconsistently applied.

    THIS is what I am talking to them about.
  2. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from tangentmechanic in The Greatest Story in Gaming, Legend of the Five Rings   
    I don't think FFG could ever do a lot of what we hear in this video, mainly the internet makes everything to solved and because the original L5R was all about these weird extra factions, these convoluted win conditions, and really allowing people to force a narrative into the game with funky new concepts and card interactions. Ideas like "building the walls of Otosan Uchi", winning through enlightenment, leading the shadowlands and so on... not only are they absent but people actively argue against them ever showing up again.

    So many people seem to care too much about "keeping the game good and balanced" that those new ideas and willingness to fully go with the flow will probably never see play.

    Heck, mention the idea of new factions and people complain to the stars that its unmanageable and terrible, but it was at the heart of the original game. At the clan war there were at least 11 factions which added so much to the world of the game.

    Bring up how cool it would be to see an enlightenment victory and people complain that it simply eats up design and wouldn't be fairly balanced.
    Bring up factions like Mantis, Shadowlands, or any other faction and people whine that it should only be the 7 clans, that the game "cant support them", that they "don't fit the flavor" as if that was ever how l5r cared to function. Again, the Day of thunder had 11+ factions and there was an ending for each one.  
    This stubbornness and need to "play it safe" could very well become a stranglehold on design, especially if they listen to the screaming fanbases. Already the most interesting design idea, the Keeper and Seeker only cards, have only been around for a little over a week and people are raging against them, singular cards out of the 120 coming out for the game. I'm not vouching for them to flood the game with jank and weird, non intuitive stuff, but I feel like when they do... I just hope the reception isn't ruined by the whiners to the point that they lose the excitement to innovate, because L5R is rooted in that concept of dynamic innovation at its heart.   

    Stories like Hoturi's egging, the birth of the Shadow Dragon, the dealings over the Tao of F u-Leng, and other famous stories of players actually making a difference are so great because of the weird designs that were embraced. I hope we get to see more things of that nature going forward.
  3. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Yoritomo Maneda in The first Mantis Clan personalities!   
    We did, oh hell we did... but considering the Mantis were our bros with Aranai, Saving the Hantei Sword, AND drinking the shourido coolaid... we can share it with them. They DID put up the best fight, what with their champion dying laughing as he fights a Kaiju sized Spider demon in the middle of a dark magic tsunami as the world literally ended around him and sank into an OCEAN OF LITERAL SCREAMING SKULLS like a dream metal album cover for the ages. Like hell man... that was an ending for the ages
    The other clans died like chumps or even worse, fled to the colonies... Mantis went out like champs. Let them feel like their deaths meant something.
  4. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to BlindSamurai13 in 'New' Official Map   
    To add, from The Book of Water for the 4E RPG, p. 109-10
    This was very interesting the first time I read this. 
  5. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from LordBlunt in Disciples of the Void - New Clan Pack   
    If only the Phoenix had a card that let them swing for one ring only to claim it and then swap it for another...

    If only the Phoenix had a card that allowed you to let your opponent win the earth ring only to steal it from them...

    Oh, wait.

    They do.

    Phoenix has ALL the options for this kind of card. Sure his ability will be limited early game, but late game he becomes a nightmare for the opponent to deal with.

    Most opponents I play shy away from earth when fighting phoenix due to the chance of me turning on Solemn Scholar by winning a defense. Tadaka only synergizes with that perspective.

     
  6. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Tabris2k in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  7. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Vlad3theImpaler in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  8. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Shiba Gunichi in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  9. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from HirumaShigure in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  10. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Notorious I.D.E. in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  11. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Tonbo Karasu in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  12. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Tonbo Karasu in Disciples of the Void - New Clan Pack   
    If only the Phoenix had a card that let them swing for one ring only to claim it and then swap it for another...

    If only the Phoenix had a card that allowed you to let your opponent win the earth ring only to steal it from them...

    Oh, wait.

    They do.

    Phoenix has ALL the options for this kind of card. Sure his ability will be limited early game, but late game he becomes a nightmare for the opponent to deal with.

    Most opponents I play shy away from earth when fighting phoenix due to the chance of me turning on Solemn Scholar by winning a defense. Tadaka only synergizes with that perspective.

     
  13. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Tetsuhiko in 'New' Official Map   
    Woah wait, are these straight rivers or curved rivers?

     
  14. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to Vlad3theImpaler in Who Killed Doji Satsume?   
    Colonel Mustard, in the billiards room, with the candlestick.
  15. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Matrim in Court Games vs Above Question   
    I see that now. I always assumed that the opponent was the target but reading over the rulings again.

    I've been playing that wrong for a while lol.
  16. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from LordBlunt in Kaito Kosori bowed at home area   
    Bolded is the big mistake. There is one word specified by the RRG that is unable to be overruled by a card ability, "Cannot", all other are met by the Jade Rule.

    When you have a card that can have an active ability while it is bowed telling you that it contributes, and a rule book rule telling you she cant the Jade Rule, literally the FIRST rule in the rule reference, tells you that when a contradiction occurs the cards ability always trumps the rule reference. I mean, its literally the first thing you read in that document.

    She says that if you meet conditions X,Y, and Z she contribute. Being unbowed is not a listed restriction for that ability, as a result a bowed Kaito can have an ability literally telling you she is contributing while she is bowed. The rules then contradict that because "bowed characters cannot contribute" and so you use the literal words of the Jade Rule.
     
     
  17. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from LordBlunt in Kaito Kosori bowed at home area   
    She DOES contradict the rules. A bowed Katori tells us that if the condition is met she contributes her skill to the conflict.
     
     
    The language on her ability is active whether she is bowed or not, as long as you meet that ability she says she can contribute.

    Now, the Jade rule tells us that contradictions between the rule book and a card always end in the favor of the card.

    When skill totals are calculated the rules state that "ready participating charecters" contribute.
    Under Skill: Pg. 15

     

    Her card text DOES say she contributes, but nothing else, especially nothing regarding participating or ready. So when the game calculates who is contributing these two requirements, Ready and participating, both look at a bowed Katori and say "no, you are not participating" and "no, you are not ready".

    The Jade rule says that when a card contradicts the rule book that the card overrules the rule book.

    So Katori's ability states that she CAN contribute, so the contradition of "I can contribute but I am not participating" is ruled in favor of the card thanks to the Jade rule and she can contribute.

    In the SAME way, the contradiction of "I can contribute but I am bowed" SHOULD also be ruled in favor of the card thanks to the Jade Rule and she can contribute.

    The reason this answer is a **** up is that its saying that the contradiction of "need to participate" is a valid contradiction for the Jade rule, but NOT the contradiction of "must be ready" which denies her ability to contribut bowed despite her ability.

    This means that there are contradictions the Jade rule now does NOT work under, and they are undefined, Tyler just decided that one was a valid contradiction while the other wasn't. I'm fine with errata, if they make Kaito have a "must not be bowed" condition or they further errata the RRG to help define what the Jade rule actually works with but as of now this makes the Jade rule no longer truly active, as what counts as a contradiction between card ability and rulebook is not defined and by this ruling is certainly not what the definition of "Contradiction" actually is.  

    So I emailed them asking them to lay out the reasoning both for their logic and in the rules. I hope they respond in a timely manner.

     
  18. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to Ishi Tonu in Cutting Fans and Swords   
    I only play curved swords and fans.  I cut all the straight ones though.
  19. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from Mandalore525 in Disciples of the Void - New Clan Pack   
    And rumors from the 4 chan, that predicted this pack and stronghold, also said that Mantis was next deluxe, shadowlands the one after.

    Now the question I have is that if Delux are supposed to be ever green, and the cycles rotate in however many years, what do these do?
     
  20. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from sndwurks in Wildcats and Dragon Teeth - Dragon Fiction   
    To be fair, the Progressive vs Traditionalist conflict WASNT a bad idea, AEG just did absolutely nothing with the concept. The idea of two heirs, especially like Seiken and Shiabatsu who truly cared for each other, becoming embroidered into an empire sized ideological struggle could have been really cool, lots of ways to make that premise interesting.
    If the new game when that route for the cause of the clan war it could be a fun concept.

    But really the big take away is that Toturi is going to get a brat tagging along, poor guy.
  21. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to Manchu in The Bright Flame of the World's Glory   
    Please, there is no need to slander Ikoma. Let's just take a look at the previous "administration":
    Arasou, Akodo daimyo and Lion Champion Tsuko, Matsu daimyo, betrothed to Arasou Ujiaki, Ikoma daimyo ambassador  All three favor aggressive expansion of Lion influence. We can generate all kinds of theories out of the air about someone or some group manipulating them to be aggressive. But there is a far simpler explanation: the Lion Clan is inherently aggressive. The Lion maintain the largest standing army in Rokugan. The thing about an army is, it wants to do its job. It wants to fight wars. There is nothing to wonder about when it comes to Lion aggression; it's like wondering about Scorpion deception. Who manipulated Shoju and Kachiko into being so sneaky and underhanded? Nobody, it's in their nature. Lion has its nature, too. At the beginning of the new continuity, the most powerful leaders of the Lion Clan all happened to be the usual aggressive Lions.
    Toturi is the odd man out. By slaying Arasou in battle, Hotaru threw the Lion leadership out of alignment. Matsu views Toturi as weak and indecisive. Ujiaki thinks he's more Phoenix than Lion. As everyone knows, Toturi is not a typical Lion. Some, however, would say that he is an extraordinary Lion.
    For those who suspect Ujiaki hired Kujira and his ronin band - the real issue there was to put Doji Kuwanan at Tsuko's mercy. Whoever was behind it assumed Tsuko would kill Kuwanan. I doubt this was a matter of further decaying Crane/Lion relations because they are already at the breaking point and Tsuko, of all people, required no persuasion on that matter. Rather, it makes more sense that the point was to get rid of Kuwanan.
    Why? Because Kuwanan believes his father was murdered and won't rest until he finds out who did it. So if Ujiaki was behind hiring the ronin then then the implication would be that he had something to do with Doji Satsume's death. While Ujiaki could have wanted to make room for a Lion to become Emerald Champion, this doesn't seem supported by Service And Sacrifice, where the plan for a Lion to become Emerald Champion seems to occur to him for the first time.
  22. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to Tabris2k in Player types explained   
    Sorry, I can’t. 
    You see, I went to my LGS today and had a game with this guy in a wheelchair... let’s just say that I may have made some accusations about “pretending a disability to be able to cheat” and “hiding cards in that cheating-artifact that you call a wheelchair” that raised more than one concern about my mental stability. The fact that the guy didn’t “start miraculously walking, you’ll all see” when I tossed him off from his wheelchair didn’t exactly help my case. 
    Long story short, I now have a restraining order, I’m banned from my LGS, and I have been forbidden for playing cards anymore. 
  23. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to Tabris2k in Player types explained   
    Well, your post made me go and read the whole 30-pages-thread about Pierson cheating (a.k.a. Drawgate, a.k.a. This is from him), which incidentally took me to another page with the whole story about that blind OL5R player that was also a cheater (I only knew he existed, but not the whole deal).
    So, yeah, great... now I’m extremely paranoid about anybody I play with...
  24. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider reacted to shosuko in More Card Spoilers   
    The capital of Rokugan is Otosan Uchi.  Otosan Uchi has an inner city called the Ekohikei.  This inner city is surrounded by a magic wall called the Miwaku Kabe, and within these walls are the 4 inner districts Chisei, Karada, Hito, and Kanjo along with the actual Imperial Palace.
    These all got a card in the Imperial cycle so I think they're done with it.  There aren't enough inner districts for each clan to receive their own card for them.
  25. Like
    TheItsyBitsySpider got a reaction from llamaman88 in Wildcats and Dragon Teeth - Dragon Fiction   
    To be fair, the Progressive vs Traditionalist conflict WASNT a bad idea, AEG just did absolutely nothing with the concept. The idea of two heirs, especially like Seiken and Shiabatsu who truly cared for each other, becoming embroidered into an empire sized ideological struggle could have been really cool, lots of ways to make that premise interesting.
    If the new game when that route for the cause of the clan war it could be a fun concept.

    But really the big take away is that Toturi is going to get a brat tagging along, poor guy.
×
×
  • Create New...