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player2017979

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  1. Hahaha.. these posts are all pretty old, but a lot of what was said at the time was about the evolution of gaming to include more women. While you are right, gaming is a very first world hobby, the point of the conversation was talking about the inclusion of more women in our stories and cultural expression to be more inclusive. This filters through societies, so saying "hey can we have more female characters in our games" is like saying that it's time we moved on from old school boys clubs in society and recognize that men and women should be equally represented doing similar things in our culture. Anyway, FF responded in their expansion to include more than one overtly female character, so I guess they thought it wouldn't hurt to mix it up a bit (and no the girls that I play with really don't care what the sex of the character they are playing is, just that they get a choice that reflects more than including one "token" girl).
  2. Yeah you are right Xcoco, it is possible to be sexist against men on some issues, not many, and not really in this context... As I said earlier, sexism is much more about power inequity than anything else. The Conan PC game sounds even more hilarious than the board game! I wonder if the designers were ...compensating for something?
  3. Ok, I think that this might be part of where we're getting a lot of the push back about this idea of sexism. I know I'm probably going to come across condescending (and like a smart ***?) but that is not my intention so please try and read past that idea... So, this idea that something can be sexist against a man in this context doesn't really work as an equivalence argument and this is because of the power dynamic involved in this hobby. So as far as I understand it, until the power dynamic is addressed (ie men and women are routinely represented equally.. which fortunately is starting to happen more an more...), sexism isn't really something that can happen to men because of our inherent position of empowered representation (ie we are massively, in numbers and characterisation, and sometimes hilariously, over represented and women tend to generally be more objectified and less represented... think the recent Conan Kickstarter... women don't need clothes in battle!). Yes, there are great examples where this is not the case and that is awesome, but unfortunately whilst things are improving, female representation remains significantly less than male representation. So I guess with that in mind, it also works the other way... it is way easier for something to be sexist for a woman simply because of the level of imbalance to begin with. It's still a fun game, FFG aren't evil, it just would've been nice to have more female characters to choose from to help remove the idea that this hobby is just a boys club.
  4. ...O...K...??? I'm not sure why you're so pissed about people disagreeing with you? As I said before and will keep saying, someone came on and said they thought it was a bit sexist to only have one girl to choose from and I agreed... What I didn't understand, and still don't, is why people are so aggravated by the suggestion that someone else might think that it seems sexist to only have one seemingly female character?
  5. ...R..i..ght... ...How old are you??? I'm not sure I really understand what you think you're managing to achieve by repeatedly making these strange attempts at insulting people to support your argument... Is it some sort of "so there" come back or just a way to derail an argument into a weird slagging match?
  6. As I said earlier in my own "survey", anecdotes unfortunately don't really constitute informative data Hedgehobbit (it's great your kids play games though! Parenting win)... There's nothing dishonest about questioning the motives of why someone would argue against something... No-one has actually said what their motivations are for being so opposed to the idea, everyone has just said that "it's all about the game or theme and that it shouldn't matter if there aren't any women to choose from, because it doesn't matter to them". So I just made the only logical conclusion I could for it, hoping that people would see that there really isn't a good reason for being so against the idea, other than to simply wanting to argue about it. I've seen plenty of explanations for how they don't agree but none indicating why they think it is so necessary to make sure people don't say it's sexist. I guess I would've expected more people to be able to see the point that was being made and go "oh yeah, I guess I can understand why someone would think that" and discuss it from there... but instead it became a vigorously contested issue with people seemingly being offended by the idea that some of us thought it was a bit sexist and that it would've been better with more female characters. In addition to what Mazz0 has already said, whilst your experience of the world might lead you to think this is true for you, this statement in itself really doesn't do anything but reaffirm that point of view. It's fine if you have fun and don't talk about the depth of the politics reflected in a game, it doesn't mean that the politics aren't there. Personally, we have fun and talk about the hilarity of what we do see in our games and often it's satire based in the inherent politics, so we have fun differently. I'm not saying the game in itself isn't fun or that I won't play if the plastic doesn't reflect my rights... I simply agreed with the idea that there is a power inequity shown in this game's design (if you're not shallow and you do stop and think about it). It's an observation of the game and one of the ways I see that it could be improved.
  7. Haha... yeah, we're poor precious little SJW snowflake unicorn flowers, ready to get angry and have tantrums n leave when people don't see things our way! As a group we actually laugh at the hilarious stupidity of most things really, but it doesn't stop me from occasionally attempting to help others see when something doesn't seem right and could be changed… It's totally true that the rules say "players"!... I guess I didn't look closely enough when first reading them and got mixed up with pretty much every other FFG game who's rules talk as though males are the only people in the board game world... my bad... It's great to see that some things are changing for the better... On a side note, I have to say I do find it strange that you are so aggressively anti social about this discussion though. Surely you can see the world from other peoples perspectives without it making you angry and abusive... As for the definition of sexism, yeah that is what was being discussed and most people did talk about not thinking this game needed to do more about it by changing the game to have more female characters, and some of us did say that it would be better if it did...??? Sexism, again like racism, isn't just about direct abusive discrimination, it can also be about indirect prejudice through lack of representation. But anyway obviously no-one is going to change your mind, you made it quite aggressively clear that you have an intolerant stance on the idea that this game could be seen as a bit sexist. I was just hoping that people could understand why someone might think it is a bit sexist to include just one female and that things aren't always just about maintaining the status quo. Sometimes it's fine to acknowledge when something could've been done differently to be more inclusive. Maybe if you tried a little more empathy these sorts of ideas wouldn't be so aggravating...
  8. Might be a good idea to read back through some of the posts to understand what was actually being said... The discussion wasn't really about men playing RPG's and struggling because they had no choice but to be a girl (that's not really something that happens that often)... It twisted a turned a lot, but I think the idea was more about thinking that it was about time that female characters, and by extension female players, were equally represented at the table. Most people in the thread didn't really seem to like the idea of having more female representation but a small few of us agreed that it would be better.
  9. That's some pretty strange logic you've got going there... Sexism (like racism etc) is about power inequity... but anyway... Your survey's interesting but I guess just as biased as mine. Personally my gaming group consists of mostly couples (plus a few single males here and there). We're a pretty "lefty" crew so I guess that messes with the data even further, and we unanimously agree that it has sexist overtones but most of us think it constitutes more of an unconscious sexism (so that's around 10 gamers in the other direction, but again it's biased data). Sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to have a discussion on the topic to help people understand that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to see this as sexist, but also I guess to highlight one of the hurdles women have to getting into this hobby. I'm not trolling, I guess I'm just a bit sick of letting people get away with thinking its fine to discount it when someone says something might be sexist... But things are changing, so maybe we should move on in a more positive direction...
  10. Haha... Whilst that's hilariously off topic and pretty nonsensical... I have played a fair few hours of Fallout in my time, 3 and 4 to be exact (still haven't made it to Vegas). So even from an experienced Fallout players perspective it seems like a bit of poor form. And I guess if you were to look at it from someone else's perspective that hadn't played then they must be completely baffled at why there is just one girl...
  11. From what I can tell, everyone at least agrees that we need to have more female representation in games in general (which is awesome, I was worried for a bit there)... but just not in this particular game because it would somehow mess with peoples intricate understanding of the lore and offend their sensibilities... So does that mean that you're all basically saying that it's your own fault if you find it frustrating that there is only one female character, because you should know the Fallout lore when you play this game, because the only people it's designed for are super Fallout nerds and all other perspectives are irrelevant? ...Ooo... K..........?!?
  12. I guess I just don't get this strange need to so vigorously rally against the idea that the game might be seen as sexist. No-one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, more pointing out that they were bored of the oversight. Someone stated an opinion that they thought this particular game (or piece of "art") had a problem in it's expression and that was seen to them, and others, as sexist. You might not see it that way, but surely you should be able to understand that other people could easily think that. No-one is saying the designers are evil or deliberately anti feminist knuckle draggers. Someone's just gone, "Ah hey, I'm a bit over the cliche token "chick" thing. Don't you think that, in this day and age, it would've been really nice to have had a few more women in this game, cause women, like all people, like that sort of thing... you know, being equally considered as part of the community"...
  13. ??? I'm pretty sure that's where this whole post started, with someone's girlfriend and their freinds being frustrated by the lack of choice... ..but oh well, I guess one or two people can't possibly be right in the face of a herd of boys saying there's nothing wrong with only including one token girl! I was kind of hoping that people would read the posts and realise that it's no skin off their nose if they were to add another girl and go "yeah that would've been cool"... My mistake. I guess all I can say at this point is, that this attitude of actively disregarding and arguing against the need for active inclusion of women in games, is a sad reflection of why the board game community at large is perceived so negatively as a bunch of cliche nerdboys. But as I said earlier, I guess that's your prerogative (emphasis on the word prerogative)...
  14. That's an interesting distinction... On one hand you believe that representation could be improved but on the other you think that this game isn't sexist and it doesn't need to be improved because of your knowledge of the lore behind game... I can understand that, you (and others) have a perspective of this particular game that allows you to feel ok about the characterisation because of the extra knowledge you have of the background of this game. So I guess that is what it comes down to (at least I hope it is). It's background knowledge of the lore that prevents people from seeing that there is a problem. Perhaps if you were to all try and look at it from the perspective of someone that didn't know much about the franchise you might gain an understanding as to why some people are saying there is a problem. The original post was from a perspective that didn't have that same knowledge of Fallout lore and without that, it is easily perceived that on the surface, this game comes across as sexist because it would appear that there is only one "token" female in the game. It's not a case of ignoring lore (most people don't know the lore), it's just a case of looking at something from someone else's point of view. If the designers had thought about both lore and equity, it would've been easy to add at least one more female character without messing with the insider knowledge of what the game is and what it means to it's fans. Win win! I always think that empathy and intellect are the keys to understanding...
  15. Hmmm, I guess what I find strange is your level of frustration with the idea that it would've been nice to include some extra females in a game (that could be done without changing lore or being a problem very easily..). As a side note, funnily enough, I think if Coconut Monkey had actually read the Wiki, they would have realised that they just did exactly what the Wiki was discussing. I think what Mazz0 is trying to say is that people seem to be trying to argue against this idea by using a form of logical fallacy (in this case what is known as an informal fallacy). This means that people are using logical arguments about other ideas to affirm a point of view, and though it may be connected in some way, the conclusion is flawed because it isn't valid for what is actually currently being discussed. In this case, you're using what's called statistical interference to argue against the idea that we should attempt to include more females, by saying that people aren't saying it's a problem there or there so therefore you must be wrong. In other words you're saying: If X isn't true for C. And X isn't true for B. Therefore X shouldn't be true for A. By arguing about something else other than what was proposed in the first place, people think that this new argument has convincing merit. It's an old political trick of arguing around a point. What it does is side track the conversation away from the the original point and allow for an easier argument to be had about something else. The statement was that it would have been nice to have more than one female character to choose from in this game and that it seemed a bit sexist that there wasn't. Not, are the other masculine looking characters female if you dig through lore or are there other people talking about this type of thing on other forums for other games... If you don't think it matters to you then I guess that's your prerogative. The negativity comes from not allowing yourself to understand another persons disappointment in wanting to be able to choose from a larger variety of female characters. The game is great fun, but yes it would have been nice for some us if there were more female characters to choose from because as it is, it feels a little sexist having only one seemingly token female.
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