I can see what you're trying to say Slash Macbain but I can imagine it would be frustrating for women to feel unrepresented so often. Games do reflect our culture, which at the moment unfortunately is still a very male dominated one.
I guess the thing with this discussion is, that the original post wasn't only about the frustration of women wanting to play as women... I think the real issue was more to do with female representation in the gaming world being fairly limited and how much better it would be if games had more female characters.
Simply put, females are underrepresented in gaming and it would be nice to see that change to encourage and support the growth in their representation both in the game and at the table.  

Wow... No wonder women struggle to get involved in this hobby... Looking back through the posts  there are more than twice as many people giving excuses as to why it's ok to have only one represented female (or at least suggesting it's your own fault for seeing it that way... which is just weird..?!?) as there are people saying that it would've been better to have more females.
Fnoffen is right, we do live in a patriarchal society and that is the point, these characters are seen by the majority of players as male and it seems they were designed without much thought for thier implied gender.
It's a little sad to see really (and kinda face slappingly boring), that no matter how simply it's been explained, people seem more interested in coming up with excuses for why everything is "ok" as it is rather than talking about the issue of females in this game and games in general (I'm hoping it's just a case of TLDR).
So here's the question (and maybe it needs to be a new thread but...) do you think that women are equally represented in gaming (players at the table), and if not why not and what can we or should we do about it?

Ok, I think that this might be part of where we're getting a lot of the push back about this idea of sexism. I know I'm probably going to come across condescending (and like a smart ***?) but that is not my intention so please try and read past that idea...
So, this idea that something can be sexist against a man in this context doesn't really work as an equivalence argument and this is because of the power dynamic involved in this hobby. So as far as I understand it, until the power dynamic is addressed (ie men and women are routinely represented equally.. which fortunately is starting to happen more an more...), sexism isn't really something that can happen to men because of our inherent position of empowered representation (ie we are massively, in numbers and characterisation, and sometimes hilariously, over represented and women tend to generally be more objectified and less represented... think the recent Conan Kickstarter... women don't need clothes in battle!).
Yes, there are great examples where this is not the case and that is awesome, but unfortunately whilst things are improving, female representation remains significantly less than male representation. So I guess with that in mind, it also works the other way... it is way easier for something to be sexist for a woman simply because of the level of imbalance to begin with.
It's still a fun game, FFG aren't evil, it just would've been nice to have more female characters to choose from to help remove the idea that this hobby is just a boys club.  

I for one would actually NOT expect any women that take offence by the low count of visibly female characters to air their oppinions here. It would, to me, seem more likely that those women would stay away from any forum for such a game for precisely the reasons that have been made abundantly clear in the 5 pages of posts in this subject. (Which, btw, makes this the thread with most responses of all threads in the forum of this game.)

Were you ever actually engaging with this thread?  You just keep repeating this line about not having any women complaining as though it means something, despite this point having been addressed several times.

As I said earlier in my own "survey", anecdotes unfortunately don't really constitute informative data Hedgehobbit (it's great your kids play games though! Parenting win)... 
There's nothing dishonest about questioning the motives of why someone would argue against something... No-one has actually said what their motivations are for being so opposed to the idea, everyone has just said that "it's all about the game or theme and that it shouldn't matter if there aren't any women to choose from, because it doesn't matter to them". So I just made the only logical conclusion I could for it, hoping that people would see that there really isn't a good reason for being so against the idea, other than to simply wanting to argue about it. I've seen plenty of explanations for how they don't agree but none indicating why they think it is so necessary to make sure people don't say it's sexist. 
I guess I would've expected more people to be able to see the point that was being made and go "oh yeah, I guess I can understand why someone would think that" and discuss it from there... but instead it became a vigorously contested issue with people seemingly being offended by the idea that some of us thought it was a bit sexist and that it would've been better with more female characters. 
In addition to what Mazz0 has already said, whilst your experience of the world might lead you to think this is true for you, this statement in itself really doesn't do anything but reaffirm that point of view. 
It's fine if you have fun and don't talk about the depth of the politics reflected in a game, it doesn't mean that the politics aren't there. Personally, we have fun and talk about the hilarity of what we do see in our games and often it's satire based in the inherent politics, so we have fun differently.
I'm not saying the game in itself isn't fun or that I won't play if the plastic doesn't reflect my rights... I simply agreed with the idea that there is a power inequity shown in this game's design (if you're not shallow and you do stop and think about it).
It's an observation of the game and one of the ways I see that it could be improved. 

I would at this point like to share an Indiana Jones quote:
"We could at least behave like civilized people!"

Well, setting aside the anecdotal nature of the evidence you use to support your claim that the “vast majority of female gamers and women do not care”, as well as the question of whether caring about is the same as agreeing with a point, so what?  An argument isn’t diminished by being unpopular.  
More importantly, the point is bigger than the one specific issue of ‘number of clearly female minis in a game’.  It’s about what that number may be symptomatic and self-reinforcing of: the impression that gaming is designed for males.  It creates stereotypes, makes boys and girls grow up thinking some sorts of hobbies/toys/aesthetics/tastes are for boys and some are for girls, just as happens with professions.

If you really want to see sexism in our hobby, read the Moral Conflict 1940 rulebook. The bit where it states women might like to play as the USA because they will like the support role. Just, wow. It actually went there.

player2017979, and presumably myself, are trolling because people you know disagree with us?  That's not what trolling means.

I guess I just don't get this strange need to so vigorously rally against the idea that the game might be seen as sexist.
No-one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, more pointing out that they were bored of the oversight. Someone stated an opinion that they thought this particular game (or piece of "art") had a problem in it's expression and that was seen to them, and others, as sexist.
You might not see it that way, but surely you should be able to understand that other people could easily think that.
No-one is saying the designers are evil or deliberately anti feminist knuckle draggers. Someone's just gone, "Ah hey, I'm a bit over the cliche token "chick" thing. Don't you think that, in this day and age, it would've been really nice to have had a few more women in this game, cause women, like all people, like that sort of thing... you know, being equally considered as part of the community"...   

??? I'm pretty sure that's where this whole post started, with someone's girlfriend and their freinds being frustrated by the lack of choice...
..but oh well, I guess one or two people can't possibly be right in the face of a herd of boys saying there's nothing wrong with only including one token girl!
I was kind of hoping that people would read the posts and realise that it's no skin off their nose if they were to add another girl and go "yeah that would've been cool"...
My mistake. 
I guess all I can say at this point is, that this attitude of actively disregarding and arguing against the need for active inclusion of women in games, is a sad reflection of why the board game community at large is perceived so negatively as a bunch of cliche nerdboys. But as I said earlier, I guess that's your prerogative (emphasis on the word prerogative)... 

Where to start...
Where was player2017979 whining?  Or is having any sort of critical opinion whining now?
Why suggest playing with other pieces or suggest there was anything wrong with buying it?  Nobody's arguing that "OMG this game is terrible, it shouldn't exist, nobody should buy it, FFG are evil", though everyone on the "we don't want women" side seems to react as though we are.  All we're saying is some more women in the game would be nice.  That's it.  Nothing about changing the lore, nothing about any other games, no whining, just one simple opinion about this game.  What's wrong with that?

I can see what people are trying to say but I guess I'm simply pointing out that they're looking at this from a very male perspective (which is normal, we're men..).
 Not really sure what Slash's point about one women being in a position of power says about this topic exactly but anyway... (is it cause she's a control freak??).
I don't think it's trolling if it's civilised and I do think having this discussion is a good thing. So I guess I just find it a bit strange that people can't see that there is nothing far fetched about the idea that having only one female out of 5 characters in a game is a little sexist.
I know generally speaking that people have already made up their minds on this, but I'll try one last time to give some insight into what kind of obstacles I think women face in this and other male dominated areas.
Say you're a middle aged white male going for a job interview for a high end managerial position at a Fortune 500 firm. You've got all the skills and experience asked for and confidently head off to the interview at the company. When you arrive you sit down in the waiting room with a bunch of other applicants and start looking through a company brochure. After a few pages you start to notice that ALL of the people who work at this company are... lets say for the purposes of this discussion... young black women. You then realise looking around the room that all of the other applicants are also young black women and suddenly get the feeling that maybe this is the culture of this work place and that based on that culture you probably won't be a  good "fit" for the job. You enter the interview room with a panel of the board members you'd be working with and your fears are realised, they too are young, black and female, looking to hire someone to add the same sort of values they have to their company... 
So I guess this what I see many women facing in male dominated fields today, including playing board games.
I know it probably won't change anyone's mind on this but I thought it might be a good way to finish my explanation of this idea and hopefully help others to at least understand the subtlety of bias that occurs in this sort of thing.
"All advocacy is, at its core, an exercise in empathy".
Just a bit of food for thought...
  

Hmmm, I guess what I find strange is your level of frustration with the idea that it would've been nice to include some extra females in a game (that could be done without changing lore or being a problem very easily..).
As a side note, funnily enough, I think if Coconut Monkey had actually read the Wiki, they would have realised that they just did exactly what the Wiki was discussing. 
I think what Mazz0 is trying to say is that people seem to be trying to argue against this idea by using a form of logical fallacy (in this case what is known as an informal fallacy).  This means that people are using logical arguments about other ideas to affirm a point of view, and though it may be connected in some way, the conclusion is flawed because it isn't valid for what is actually currently being discussed. 
In this case, you're using what's called statistical interference to argue against the idea that we should attempt to include more females, by saying that people aren't saying it's a problem there or there so therefore you must be wrong.
In other words you're saying: 
If X isn't true for C. And X isn't true for B. Therefore X shouldn't be true for A. By arguing about something else other than what was proposed in the first place, people think that this new argument has convincing merit. It's an old political trick of arguing around a point. What it does is side track the conversation away from the the original point and allow for an easier argument to be had about something else.
The statement was that it would have been nice to have more than one female character to choose from in this game and that it seemed a bit sexist that there wasn't. Not, are the other masculine looking characters female if you dig through lore or are there other people talking about this type of thing on other forums for other games...
If you don't think it matters to you then I guess that's your prerogative. The negativity comes from not allowing yourself to understand another persons disappointment in wanting to be able to choose from a larger variety of female characters.  
The game is great fun, but yes it would have been nice for some us if there were more female characters to choose from because as it is, it feels a little sexist having only one seemingly token female.
 

Haha, I guess that makes the whole 4 of us who argued for this a bunch of LSJWS's (I'd probably add Unicorn in there somewhere "LSJWSU")...  Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?

Haha, I guess that makes the whole 4 of us who argued for this a bunch of LSJWS's (I'd probably add Unicorn in there somewhere "LSJWSU")...  Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?

I guess the only thing left to say is wow...   I'm obviously talking to a brick wall of oblivion. They're some pretty bizarre and out dated idea's you've got there Slash Macbain. I was previously giving you benefit of the doubt but now I'm guessing you have to be trolling..?!?..
Surely no-one in their right mind thinks like that, it's just backward, ill informed, out dated and weird.
Who wouldn't like gaming? 
 

I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.
While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely this demonstrates a market that remains untapped! 
Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games we play.  

Wow... No wonder women struggle to get involved in this hobby... Looking back through the posts  there are more than twice as many people giving excuses as to why it's ok to have only one represented female (or at least suggesting it's your own fault for seeing it that way... which is just weird..?!?) as there are people saying that it would've been better to have more females.
Fnoffen is right, we do live in a patriarchal society and that is the point, these characters are seen by the majority of players as male and it seems they were designed without much thought for thier implied gender.
It's a little sad to see really (and kinda face slappingly boring), that no matter how simply it's been explained, people seem more interested in coming up with excuses for why everything is "ok" as it is rather than talking about the issue of females in this game and games in general (I'm hoping it's just a case of TLDR).
So here's the question (and maybe it needs to be a new thread but...) do you think that women are equally represented in gaming (players at the table), and if not why not and what can we or should we do about it?

I can see that if you approach this from the perspective of someone that is frustrated by constantly having, what you call the SJW, interfere with the world, that you don't understand why this is a problem.
To me it's not about acronyms that are designed to negate what someone is saying or making cliche references about the word assume. It's just about looking at the gaming industry and talking about the fact that it has a problem with female representation (which I think anyone would be hard pressed to deny).
The characters that you get to choose from in Fallout exemplify the issue.
We live in a bit of a male bubble in gaming. The designers are predominantly male, the executives and reviewers are mostly male and of course the gamers are. So I think what happens is that games get designed in a way that someone thinks is cool, and that happens to naturally reflect a male perspective.
All that is being said here is that it would be nice if designers could think outside of their box (or bubble) and include more female perspectives. If you want to get bogged down in the semantics of insider "Lore" (ie information that is known only by mega fans of the franchise) that's your choice but it is missing the point. The point is, there appears from the outside (without needing to investigate lore) to be 4 male figures and 1 female one to choose from.
As was stated in the first post and as I and others have said, it just would've been nice to see 2 readily identifiable females to choose from in this game, that's it.

Haha... Wow... I find it hilarious the lengths people go to in order to argue against this idea. All that is being said is that it would've been better if the designers made some (pretty minor) changes to design and included more than one obviously female looking character (the Vault Dweller or the Ghoul are the obvious choices here or even add a sixth character??), that's it!! 
It's not going to mess with the theme just because a Ghoul is obviously female (which if you've played Fallout 4 etc can be obvious without looking stupid) or the Vault Dweller is a girl or even if the Brotherhood character didn't have a helmet and looked feminine (that would've looked cool). I find it weird that anyone would have a problem with the idea of having more equality in a game.
By adding more characters that are obviously female the game would still be thematically awesome, play just as well (with the same flaws) and it's appeal to a wider audience would only increase (unless male gamers have a problem with having to be a girl ; P).
All this aside, women are around 50% of the population and that should be reflected in the games we play...
 

Ha ha... Oh no, how about us poor men and our under representation in board games and the board gaming community! How will we ever be encouraged to get to the table!!!  ; P
Joking aside, I know this conversation is probably about to get derailed but I still think it is a valuable one to have... so I guess I'll try to keep going??
All I think the original post was trying to say is that it would have been way easier to encourage the female members of the group to play Fallout over any other game if the design choices where a little more like Eldritch etc and included a choice of obviously female characters...
...and I agree...
I'm not sure what the stats are for the board game community in general but from what I can see, there are far less female members than male ones (just go to any convention or comp) and it would be great to see designers encourage more women to play by making subtle design choices that help more women relate to the hobby. 
So that's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about if someone could decide to use their imagination and picture a woman under a suit of armour belonging to the Brotherhood of Steel or imagine the Ghoul is simply a kind of androgynous looking yet female tomboy (that sounds way creepier than it was supposed to ; P)...
It's not an attack on men or anything weird and sinister like that, it's more of a simple commentary on wanting to encourage more women to play the games we all love by including them in design choices.
I don't really understand why people would want to argue against that??

I can see what you're trying to say Slash Macbain but I can imagine it would be frustrating for women to feel unrepresented so often. Games do reflect our culture, which at the moment unfortunately is still a very male dominated one.
I guess the thing with this discussion is, that the original post wasn't only about the frustration of women wanting to play as women... I think the real issue was more to do with female representation in the gaming world being fairly limited and how much better it would be if games had more female characters.
Simply put, females are underrepresented in gaming and it would be nice to see that change to encourage and support the growth in their representation both in the game and at the table.  

As a dad who's always trying to "nerd-up" my daughter, I'm always happy to see more female characters in a game.  In the case of Fallout, people who dive deep into the source material will know that 2 of the 5 characters (the power armor and the super mutant) are gender-neutral, but the look of the super mutant doesn't help.  Furthermore, the nerd genres where female armor is represented in a realistic way are very small... in my universe, only Fallout and Captain Phasma come to mind.
Unfortunately, even though my own daughter is very much in favor of not accentuating her own femininity needlessly (hooray!), I think even she would see such dull-looking armor in a game and assume that the person inside is male.  Maybe we'll soon get to a tipping point where that changes, thanks to the likes of Gwendoline Christie
Anyway, if I use the too-many-choices FFG Talisman character roster as an example, I imagine that expansion content will feature a much better gender-mix than this base game.  We'll get some good stuff - I have hope!