Ma2D2
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Posts posted by Ma2D2
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Yeah you are right Xcoco, it is possible to be sexist against men on some issues, not many, and not really in this context... As I said earlier, sexism is much more about power inequity than anything else.
The Conan PC game sounds even more hilarious than the board game! I wonder if the designers were ...compensating for something?
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8 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:I will throw away all my Lara Croft things today, how stupid i have been, a male having anything to do with such a Sexist female centric franchise, i should have been demanding more male characters in that for years.
Ok, I think that this might be part of where we're getting a lot of the push back about this idea of sexism. I know I'm probably going to come across condescending (and like a smart ***?) but that is not my intention so please try and read past that idea...
So, this idea that something can be sexist against a man in this context doesn't really work as an equivalence argument and this is because of the power dynamic involved in this hobby. So as far as I understand it, until the power dynamic is addressed (ie men and women are routinely represented equally.. which fortunately is starting to happen more an more...), sexism isn't really something that can happen to men because of our inherent position of empowered representation (ie we are massively, in numbers and characterisation, and sometimes hilariously, over represented and women tend to generally be more objectified and less represented... think the recent Conan Kickstarter... women don't need clothes in battle!
).
Yes, there are great examples where this is not the case and that is awesome, but unfortunately whilst things are improving, female representation remains significantly less than male representation. So I guess with that in mind, it also works the other way... it is way easier for something to be sexist for a woman simply because of the level of imbalance to begin with.
It's still a fun game, FFG aren't evil, it just would've been nice to have more female characters to choose from to help remove the idea that this hobby is just a boys club.
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...O...K...???
I'm not sure why you're so pissed about people disagreeing with you?
As I said before and will keep saying, someone came on and said they thought it was a bit sexist to only have one girl to choose from and I agreed... What I didn't understand, and still don't, is why people are so aggravated by the suggestion that someone else might think that it seems sexist to only have one seemingly female character?
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1 hour ago, crow-flash said:...Only thing shallow here your post.
...R..i..ght...
...How old are you???
I'm not sure I really understand what you think you're managing to achieve by repeatedly making these strange attempts at insulting people to support your argument... Is it some sort of "so there" come back or just a way to derail an argument into a weird slagging match?
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10 hours ago, Hedgehobbit said:I have three daughters and the games they choose to play have nothing to do with the gender representation of the game's characters but everything to do with the gameplay and theme
As I said earlier in my own "survey", anecdotes unfortunately don't really constitute informative data Hedgehobbit (it's great your kids play games though! Parenting win
)...
10 hours ago, Hedgehobbit said:Yet I constantly see, even in this thread, the claim that if anyone is against adding female character to any game they must also be against female gamers.
...This is a dishonest tactic.
There's nothing dishonest about questioning the motives of why someone would argue against something... No-one has actually said what their motivations are for being so opposed to the idea, everyone has just said that "it's all about the game or theme and that it shouldn't matter if there aren't any women to choose from, because it doesn't matter to them". So I just made the only logical conclusion I could for it, hoping that people would see that there really isn't a good reason for being so against the idea, other than to simply wanting to argue about it. I've seen plenty of explanations for how they don't agree but none indicating why they think it is so necessary to make sure people don't say it's sexist.
I guess I would've expected more people to be able to see the point that was being made and go "oh yeah, I guess I can understand why someone would think that" and discuss it from there... but instead it became a vigorously contested issue with people seemingly being offended by the idea that some of us thought it was a bit sexist and that it would've been better with more female characters.
12 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:the Vast majority of female gamers and Women Do Not Care What Gender A Bit Of Plastic Is !!!! .. they are not that shallow, vain and petty ... that just like Male Gamers who play female characters, they are there for the game not the politics
In addition to what Mazz0 has already said, whilst your experience of the world might lead you to think this is true for you, this statement in itself really doesn't do anything but reaffirm that point of view.
It's fine if you have fun and don't talk about the depth of the politics reflected in a game, it doesn't mean that the politics aren't there. Personally, we have fun and talk about the hilarity of what we do see in our games and often it's satire based in the inherent politics, so we have fun differently.
I'm not saying the game in itself isn't fun or that I won't play if the plastic doesn't reflect my rights... I simply agreed with the idea that there is a power inequity shown in this game's design (if you're not shallow and you do stop and think about it
).
It's an observation of the game and one of the ways I see that it could be improved.
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1 hour ago, crow-flash said:Good to see your sick of it. Better get used to people not see things your way. On that's right your group is left thinkers. Bet you guys must get triggered over everything.
Haha... yeah, we're poor precious little SJW snowflake unicorn flowers, ready to get angry and have tantrums n leave when people don't see things our way!
As a group we actually laugh at the hilarious stupidity of most things really, but it doesn't stop me from occasionally attempting to help others see when something doesn't seem right and could be changed…
1 hour ago, crow-flash said:This is a lie as fantasy flight games books says players. Not males...... do I need to post screen shots. Only thing annoying is you.
It's totally true that the rules say "players"!... I guess I didn't look closely enough when first reading them and got mixed up with pretty much every other FFG game who's rules talk as though males are the only people in the board game world... my bad...
It's great to see that some things are changing for the better...
On a side note, I have to say I do find it strange that you are so aggressively anti social about this discussion though. Surely you can see the world from other peoples perspectives without it making you angry and abusive...
1 hour ago, crow-flash said:Way to twist this thread into something no one ever said. No one said dam I don't want girls playing or girl minis. People said it was not sexist.
Ahhh here..... since you seem to have turned sexism into something in this game it's not.
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.As for the definition of sexism, yeah that is what was being discussed and most people did talk about not thinking this game needed to do more about it by changing the game to have more female characters, and some of us did say that it would be better if it did...???
Sexism, again like racism, isn't just about direct abusive discrimination, it can also be about indirect prejudice through lack of representation.
But anyway obviously no-one is going to change your mind, you made it quite aggressively clear that you have an intolerant stance on the idea that this game could be seen as a bit sexist.
I was just hoping that people could understand why someone might think it is a bit sexist to include just one female and that things aren't always just about maintaining the status quo. Sometimes it's fine to acknowledge when something could've been done differently to be more inclusive.
Maybe if you tried a little more empathy these sorts of ideas wouldn't be so aggravating...
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On 2/17/2018 at 9:35 AM, Jeff Kaos said:I'm completely baffled. I can only assume this is a joke because I've been playing P&P RPGs and board games since the mid-80s and even as a 12 year old playing Talisman with my friends none of us wouldn't play as say the Prophetess because she's a female and we were boys. And if a boy in 1984 can play as a female character in a game without it being an issue I have to assume a full grown adult would be able to at least *pretend* to do the same in 2018.
Might be a good idea to read back through some of the posts to understand what was actually being said... The discussion wasn't really about men playing RPG's and struggling because they had no choice but to be a girl (that's not really something that happens that often)...
It twisted a turned a lot, but I think the idea was more about thinking that it was about time that female characters, and by extension female players, were equally represented at the table.
Most people in the thread didn't really seem to like the idea of having more female representation but a small few of us agreed that it would be better.
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52 minutes ago, crow-flash said:By this messed up logic if I buy my daughter a my little pony set and itcomes with 3 girl and one boy it's sexist. .....
That's some pretty strange logic you've got going there... Sexism (like racism etc) is about power inequity... but anyway...
Your survey's interesting but I guess just as biased as mine. Personally my gaming group consists of mostly couples (plus a few single males here and there). We're a pretty "lefty" crew so I guess that messes with the data even further, and we unanimously agree that it has sexist overtones but most of us think it constitutes more of an unconscious sexism (so that's around 10 gamers in the other direction, but again it's biased data).
Sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to have a discussion on the topic to help people understand that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to see this as sexist, but also I guess to highlight one of the hurdles women have to getting into this hobby.
I'm not trolling, I guess I'm just a bit sick of letting people get away with thinking its fine to discount it when someone says something might be sexist...
But things are changing, so maybe we should move on in a more positive direction...
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Haha... Whilst that's hilariously off topic and pretty nonsensical..
. I have played a fair few hours of Fallout in my time, 3 and 4 to be exact (still haven't made it to Vegas
). So even from an experienced Fallout players perspective it seems like a bit of poor form.
And I guess if you were to look at it from someone else's perspective that hadn't played then they must be completely baffled at why there is just one girl...
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From what I can tell, everyone at least agrees that we need to have more female representation in games in general (which is awesome, I was worried for a bit there)... but just not in this particular game because it would somehow mess with peoples intricate understanding of the lore and offend their sensibilities...
So does that mean that you're all basically saying that it's your own fault if you find it frustrating that there is only one female character, because you should know the Fallout lore when you play this game, because the only people it's designed for are super Fallout nerds and all other perspectives are irrelevant?
...Ooo... K......
....?!?
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42 minutes ago, crow-flash said:I don't think anyone is against girls in the game. But to make a thread and call this game sexist is wrong. What I'm not for is forcing games,movies,art books etc to bend to appease people. Once you force that it's no longer art or freedom. This goes all ways.
I guess I just don't get this strange need to so vigorously rally against the idea that the game might be seen as sexist.
No-one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, more pointing out that they were bored of the oversight. Someone stated an opinion that they thought this particular game (or piece of "art") had a problem in it's expression and that was seen to them, and others, as sexist.
You might not see it that way, but surely you should be able to understand that other people could easily think that.
No-one is saying the designers are evil or deliberately anti feminist knuckle draggers. Someone's just gone, "Ah hey, I'm a bit over the cliche token "chick" thing. Don't you think that, in this day and age, it would've been really nice to have had a few more women in this game, cause women, like all people, like that sort of thing... you know, being equally considered as part of the community"...
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23 hours ago, crow-flash said:See the only person who see this as a issue is you. And your not even a female. Like others have said we disagree and will not see it eye to eye.
??? I'm pretty sure that's where this whole post started, with someone's girlfriend and their freinds being frustrated by the lack of choice...
..but oh well, I guess one or two people can't possibly be right in the face of a herd of boys saying there's nothing wrong with only including one token girl!
I was kind of hoping that people would read the posts and realise that it's no skin off their nose if they were to add another girl and go "yeah that would've been cool"...
My mistake.
I guess all I can say at this point is, that this attitude of actively disregarding and arguing against the need for active inclusion of women in games, is a sad reflection of why the board game community at large is perceived so negatively as a bunch of cliche nerdboys. But as I said earlier, I guess that's your prerogative (emphasis on the word prerogative)...
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8 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:In the end, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I agree that women can be represented more (as can a slew of minorities as well). I disagree that the Fallout game is sexist.
That's an interesting distinction... On one hand you believe that representation could be improved but on the other you think that this game isn't sexist and it doesn't need to be improved because of your knowledge of the lore behind game...
I can understand that, you (and others) have a perspective of this particular game that allows you to feel ok about the characterisation because of the extra knowledge you have of the background of this game.
So I guess that is what it comes down to (at least I hope it is). It's background knowledge of the lore that prevents people from seeing that there is a problem.
Perhaps if you were to all try and look at it from the perspective of someone that didn't know much about the franchise you might gain an understanding as to why some people are saying there is a problem. The original post was from a perspective that didn't have that same knowledge of Fallout lore and without that, it is easily perceived that on the surface, this game comes across as sexist because it would appear that there is only one "token" female in the game.
It's not a case of ignoring lore (most people don't know the lore), it's just a case of looking at something from someone else's point of view.
If the designers had thought about both lore and equity, it would've been easy to add at least one more female character without messing with the insider knowledge of what the game is and what it means to it's fans.
Win win!
I always think that empathy and intellect are the keys to understanding...
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7 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:I can't believe this s*** show is still going on. I tried to find a similar thread over on the Star Wars Legion forum, you know, cause all the stormtroopers and rebels look like dudes, but found nothing. Also hit Runebound but also came up empty handed. What gives? If we are on the path to re-writing established game lore for more female figs and proclaim games sexist, why stop here? And while you are at it, why not stop over at the PHG forums and commend them for including many female characters in their new IPs? Show some positivity there.
Hmmm, I guess what I find strange is your level of frustration with the idea that it would've been nice to include some extra females in a game (that could be done without changing lore or being a problem very easily..).
As a side note, funnily enough, I think if Coconut Monkey had actually read the Wiki, they would have realised that they just did exactly what the Wiki was discussing.
I think what Mazz0 is trying to say is that people seem to be trying to argue against this idea by using a form of logical fallacy (in this case what is known as an informal fallacy). This means that people are using logical arguments about other ideas to affirm a point of view, and though it may be connected in some way, the conclusion is flawed because it isn't valid for what is actually currently being discussed.
In this case, you're using what's called statistical interference to argue against the idea that we should attempt to include more females, by saying that people aren't saying it's a problem there or there so therefore you must be wrong.
In other words you're saying:
- If X isn't true for C.
- And X isn't true for B.
- Therefore X shouldn't be true for A.
By arguing about something else other than what was proposed in the first place, people think that this new argument has convincing merit. It's an old political trick of arguing around a point. What it does is side track the conversation away from the the original point and allow for an easier argument to be had about something else.
The statement was that it would have been nice to have more than one female character to choose from in this game and that it seemed a bit sexist that there wasn't. Not, are the other masculine looking characters female if you dig through lore or are there other people talking about this type of thing on other forums for other games...
If you don't think it matters to you then I guess that's your prerogative. The negativity comes from not allowing yourself to understand another persons disappointment in wanting to be able to choose from a larger variety of female characters.
The game is great fun, but yes it would have been nice for some us if there were more female characters to choose from because as it is, it feels a little sexist having only one seemingly token female.
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3 hours ago, mazz0 said:Jesus H. ****, I cant believe these people who are arguing against the very simple concept that more women (who were sensible, sensibly dressed characters, not eye candy) in games would be a good thing. But then I’m just some libtard SJW snowflake...
Haha, I guess that makes the whole 4 of us who argued for this a bunch of LSJWS's (I'd probably add Unicorn in there somewhere "LSJWSU")... Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?
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4 hours ago, Vetnor said:Yes I’d say you’ve totally missed the point.
Hahaha, I guess the fact that the majority of posts in this thread suggest there is nothing wrong here, kinda makes my point for me... Pity really...
Trolls keep on troll'n.
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I slap my face and drag my hand in a downward direction... Point missed...
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16 hours ago, crow-flash said:This is pointless... There are no barriers in board games to keep anyone from playing...
I can see what people are trying to say but I guess I'm simply pointing out that they're looking at this from a very male perspective (which is normal, we're men..).
Not really sure what Slash's point about one women being in a position of power says about this topic exactly but anyway... (is it cause she's a control freak??).
I don't think it's trolling if it's civilised and I do think having this discussion is a good thing. So I guess I just find it a bit strange that people can't see that there is nothing far fetched about the idea that having only one female out of 5 characters in a game is a little sexist.
I know generally speaking that people have already made up their minds on this, but I'll try one last time to give some insight into what kind of obstacles I think women face in this and other male dominated areas.
Say you're a middle aged white male going for a job interview for a high end managerial position at a Fortune 500 firm. You've got all the skills and experience asked for and confidently head off to the interview at the company. When you arrive you sit down in the waiting room with a bunch of other applicants and start looking through a company brochure. After a few pages you start to notice that ALL of the people who work at this company are... lets say for the purposes of this discussion... young black women. You then realise looking around the room that all of the other applicants are also young black women and suddenly get the feeling that maybe this is the culture of this work place and that based on that culture you probably won't be a good "fit" for the job. You enter the interview room with a panel of the board members you'd be working with and your fears are realised, they too are young, black and female, looking to hire someone to add the same sort of values they have to their company...
So I guess this what I see many women facing in male dominated fields today, including playing board games.
I know it probably won't change anyone's mind on this but I thought it might be a good way to finish my explanation of this idea and hopefully help others to at least understand the subtlety of bias that occurs in this sort of thing.
"All advocacy is, at its core, an exercise in empathy".
Just a bit of food for thought...
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I guess the only thing left to say is wow...
I'm obviously talking to a brick wall of oblivion. They're some pretty bizarre and out dated idea's you've got there Slash Macbain. I was previously giving you benefit of the doubt but now I'm guessing you have to be trolling..?!?..
Surely no-one in their right mind thinks like that, it's just backward, ill informed, out dated and weird.
Who wouldn't like gaming?
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On 2/3/2018 at 5:58 PM, jcmonson said:I don't think women are equally represented in gaming. I don't think we should be trying to get equal representation though.
I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.
While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely this demonstrates a market that remains untapped!
Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games we play.
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Wow... No wonder women struggle to get involved in this hobby... Looking back through the posts there are more than twice as many people giving excuses as to why it's ok to have only one represented female (or at least suggesting it's your own fault for seeing it that way... which is just weird..?!?) as there are people saying that it would've been better to have more females.
Fnoffen is right, we do live in a patriarchal society and that is the point, these characters are seen by the majority of players as male and it seems they were designed without much thought for thier implied gender.
It's a little sad to see really (and kinda face slappingly boring), that no matter how simply it's been explained, people seem more interested in coming up with excuses for why everything is "ok" as it is rather than talking about the issue of females in this game and games in general (I'm hoping it's just a case of TLDR).
So here's the question (and maybe it needs to be a new thread but...) do you think that women are equally represented in gaming (players at the table), and if not why not and what can we or should we do about it?
mazz0 and EnsignTuna reacted to this -
6 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:I think this whole thing is stupid. It is all based around assumptions... ...The first 3 letters of that word are what we look like when we assume. ...As it stands, the game really has what, 2 confirmed male characters in the Vault Dweller and the Ghoul? 1 confirmed female and 2 which can go either way. That seems pretty balanced to me.
I can see that if you approach this from the perspective of someone that is frustrated by constantly having, what you call the SJW, interfere with the world, that you don't understand why this is a problem.
To me it's not about acronyms that are designed to negate what someone is saying or making cliche references about the word assume. It's just about looking at the gaming industry and talking about the fact that it has a problem with female representation (which I think anyone would be hard pressed to deny).
The characters that you get to choose from in Fallout exemplify the issue.
We live in a bit of a male bubble in gaming. The designers are predominantly male, the executives and reviewers are mostly male and of course the gamers are. So I think what happens is that games get designed in a way that someone thinks is cool, and that happens to naturally reflect a male perspective.
All that is being said here is that it would be nice if designers could think outside of their box (or bubble) and include more female perspectives. If you want to get bogged down in the semantics of insider "Lore" (ie information that is known only by mega fans of the franchise) that's your choice but it is missing the point. The point is, there appears from the outside (without needing to investigate lore) to be 4 male figures and 1 female one to choose from.
As was stated in the first post and as I and others have said, it just would've been nice to see 2 readily identifiable females to choose from in this game, that's it.
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1 hour ago, Slash Macbain said:Yes let not worry whether games are actually good or not, whether they play well or are thematic ... as long as there are equal number of male and female playing pieces!
Haha... Wow... I find it hilarious the lengths people go to in order to argue against this idea. All that is being said is that it would've been better if the designers made some (pretty minor) changes to design and included more than one obviously female looking character (the Vault Dweller or the Ghoul are the obvious choices here or even add a sixth character??), that's it!!
It's not going to mess with the theme just because a Ghoul is obviously female (which if you've played Fallout 4 etc can be obvious without looking stupid) or the Vault Dweller is a girl or even if the Brotherhood character didn't have a helmet and looked feminine (that would've looked cool). I find it weird that anyone would have a problem with the idea of having more equality in a game.
By adding more characters that are obviously female the game would still be thematically awesome, play just as well (with the same flaws) and it's appeal to a wider audience would only increase (unless male gamers have a problem with having to be a girl ; P).
All this aside, women are around 50% of the population and that should be reflected in the games we play...
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Ha ha... Oh no, how about us poor men and our under representation in board games and the board gaming community! How will we ever be encouraged to get to the table!!! ; P
Joking aside, I know this conversation is probably about to get derailed but I still think it is a valuable one to have... so I guess I'll try to keep going??
All I think the original post was trying to say is that it would have been way easier to encourage the female members of the group to play Fallout over any other game if the design choices where a little more like Eldritch etc and included a choice of obviously female characters...
...and I agree...
I'm not sure what the stats are for the board game community in general but from what I can see, there are far less female members than male ones (just go to any convention or comp) and it would be great to see designers encourage more women to play by making subtle design choices that help more women relate to the hobby.
So that's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about if someone could decide to use their imagination and picture a woman under a suit of armour belonging to the Brotherhood of Steel or imagine the Ghoul is simply a kind of androgynous looking yet female tomboy (that sounds way creepier than it was supposed to ; P)...
It's not an attack on men or anything weird and sinister like that, it's more of a simple commentary on wanting to encourage more women to play the games we all love by including them in design choices.
I don't really understand why people would want to argue against that??
).
)...
). So even from an experienced Fallout players perspective it seems like a bit of poor form.
I'm obviously talking to a brick wall of oblivion. They're some pretty bizarre and out dated idea's you've got there Slash Macbain. I was previously giving you benefit of the doubt but now I'm guessing you have to be trolling..?!?..
Sexism.....Sexism never changes......
in Fallout
Posted
Hahaha.. these posts are all pretty old, but a lot of what was said at the time was about the evolution of gaming to include more women.
While you are right, gaming is a very first world hobby, the point of the conversation was talking about the inclusion of more women in our stories and cultural expression to be more inclusive. This filters through societies, so saying "hey can we have more female characters in our games" is like saying that it's time we moved on from old school boys clubs in society and recognize that men and women should be equally represented doing similar things in our culture.
Anyway, FF responded in their expansion to include more than one overtly female character, so I guess they thought it wouldn't hurt to mix it up a bit (and no the girls that I play with really don't care what the sex of the character they are playing is, just that they get a choice that reflects more than including one "token" girl).