Obscene
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Posts posted by Obscene
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The dice facings can be found in these forums are on page 2 or 3.
The armor not happening until after the reveal does change some things as well, but not terribly given that most units can add a *hit* modifier to their dials with out doing an extremely slow attack opening up that bonus for the most important benefactor, the rune golem. It should how ever be taken into consideration on a case by case basis.
@TalltonyB Do rerolls happen to be all of the dice in a grouping or can you selectively reroll one out of a group?
I'll do a write up later on how the Ardus upgrade affects a unit of reanimates.TallTonyB and Budgernaut reacted to this -
So, I made a pretty big spreadsheet and plugged in just about every unit value. Did just about every calculation imaginable, average dmg, max dmg, point per model, point per wound, point per effective wounds, etc. Found out some really cool things and correlations. I've never straight up tried to analyze a game quantitatively before so my formulas, observations, and even my base knowledge of the game could all be wrong but I wanted to go through the mental exercise.
Dice:Red Die: Are the most damage oriented die, while their damage on averages isn't insanely higher their ability to *yahtzee* big rolls is. One of the most extreme examples is in a max formation squad of rune golems, if you flank and choose a red bonus die, your maximum output increase by 5 damage while your average only increases by 1.25 compared to choosing a blue die. Hits scale really well threat.
Blue Die: Give surge and accuracy, especially surge, and if you have surge abilities on items or on your unit that you want to trigger this is what you want.
White Die: Are the love child of combing blue and red, expect to get a damage and something to go along with it. Not quite as good as blue die for triggering surge.
Rerolls: Because of the variability in red die, the double blanks, I'm going to put these guys as pretty strong because it was naturally increase your average damage roll just because you won't get stuck with the 2 in 8 blank as often. If rerolls allow you selectively reroll one die in a group, instead of just all of them, they will be very strong.
Formations: The primary reason I started doing this was because I wanted to know how much value their was to running multiple small units compared to large formations. Early data suggests that units are better in smaller groups as far as damage per point spent goes. However units in small formations can lose their threat bonus very quickly which greatly reduces their damage by half, and with the variability of red die having a reroll seems pretty necessary. One thing that scales quite well is effective hp(Armor x HP) per point, some unit. Looking at hit averages across the board 3 armor is a good value, while being able to boost to two on a rank and file is really valuable. Another thing to suggest MSU is not the definitive way to build armies(even though perhaps some units will function pretty well at it.) is upgrades. Upgrades from the few that we have seen are extremely strong. Tempered steel(as seen in the reanimate box) is one of the most cost effective sources of damage in the game. If your threat is 2 you are pay 1.5 points for a point of damage, and if it is 3 you are paying 1 point per a point. To put this into perspective the best deals in units tends be 5 points, and the average 8-11 points. Another strong example is a max rank unit of Daqan Spearmen go from one of the least cost effective units for damage per a point spent, to once you equip them with a front line rune golem to one of the most. So units are definitely priced at certain tiers where more upgrades become unlocked.
Daqan Units:
Kari: The single most effective source of damage in the game if I calculated it correctly. The cavaet is that her damage is better on a target that she is not engaged with, while being engaged with something else. *_*. It will be interesting to see what type of upgrades she can get to increase her surge fr equency/amount.
Rune Golem: This bad boy over here tends to be above average in almost all of his stats for point spent at small unit sizes and large unit sizes. His Yahtzee roll is the highest in the game(except for front line spearmen who tie.)while his average is pretty damn good. Can also achieve the highest block of effective health in the game by a large margin in melee and close to it when not in melee. In groups of one or two are extremely effective flankers, if a bit unwieldy, however a main battle line of 6 could be absolutely devastating. Their effective HP is also greater than most in practicality because of the thresh hold function in armor. Small units can't touch em and it would take a unit with an extremely large threat bonus to begin even scratching them. They are slow and cumbersome, so don't allow their above average stats to actually distract you from that difficulty in the field of battle. The scariest thing about running 6 of them is they are extremely vulnerable to carrion lancers and Ardus if they are blighted.
Oathsworn Calvary: At their smallest formation they are one of the most cost effective sources of damage with high mobility and the ability to armor up any given turn. However, they are pretty frail to reanimate archers and I would use the armor ability any time they are subject to being attacked from reanimate archers, potentially even when in combat or having them go for the archers first. Even though groups of 2 trays are extremely cost effective on averages(volatility of red die) and because of their frailty I would run them in their second formation. Their cost effectiveness vanishes in the third formation, I can only assume this is some hidden cost associated with an upgrade or that rerolls are that strong. If I would run them in the 2 by 3 formation, I would rather just spend more points and get them to the awesome 3 threat. I have not really mentioned the prospect of flanking yet, but if you do their damage goes up considerably. One extremely interesting thing about them is their ability to generate inspiration tokens isn't far fetched so I could see some scenario of being able to use an upgrade card turn after turn, especially if you can flank and get a blue die.
Spearmen: Great effective wounds at range because of the +armor on march. The white skill will probably always be useful, and the ability to generate a guaranteed hit off their dial is extremely strong, especially with how easy it is to get their threat to 3. Really good generalist rank and file, I'd probably run them in their 3 by 2 formation in groups of 2(especially once their command squad comes out), but their max formation with front line rune golem is absolutely terrifying damage wise and doesn't reduce the groups toughness in the long run, and can help keep their damage relevant even when he is the only model still left in the squad, which is quite the accomplishment for rank and file.
Waiqar:Ardus: This guy has a lot of hidden power and it will be interesting to see how he develops. He is inherently less cost effective than Kari, but if a carrion lancer is near him, and his targeted is blighted, he will kill whatever he needs to.(Especially if mortal strike damage can be increased by threat.) Don't let him touch your rune golems, you will be upset. Try and set a unit of oathsworn calvary up to intercept him, because I doubt the enemy player is going to walk him into your spearmen.
Carrion Lancer: Is kind of similar to the Spearmen in how tactically flexible it is. Has several movement options, one of them at speed 3 makes it interestingly enough good at blocking charge lanes.(Thanks Kris!) It's ability to blight something and then move is very strong. It will be interesting to see what other cards play off blight tokens, as of right now being able to bypass armor on average once per a turn is pretty strong and with some *yahtzee*rolls or rerolls you can do a lot better than that. He will eat your rune golems for breakfast and his 3 health and 3 armor make him extremely durable. His damage output while cost effective against non high armor targets is a bit less then stellar until he gets to higher formation levels. I expect his access to the morale modifier on his melee attack to make up for this.
Reanimate Archers: Are really good, high damage out put in their smallest formation for their cost. The variability of the red die leaves me wanting rerolls though, so I'd probably take them in their max formation for 3 threat which does boost their damage considerably. Allowing them to take out a trays worth of armored horse men per a turn. The tempered steel upgrade turns them into absolute damage monsters even if you never refresh the upgrade. This is especially devastating with the accuracy modifier on the dial, almost assuring you get to *snipe* an opponents command model. Hell I'd run 2 units of max formation if I could screen them well enough.
Reanimates: Excellent wounds per cost, damage gets less effective as the unit gains in size as they don't have an in built hit icon to take advantage of their threat bonus that can reach up to 4. They are a tarpit from hell though. Their morale modifier I am sure will come in handy with their poor damage scaling. All I can say is, if your going to try and kill this unit, kill it quickly. Or ignore for as long as possibe, it's just not an effective way to earn victory points. I'm sorry if your opponent makes this their bounty unit in their objective mission. In their max formation, each one is worth approximately 1.33 points. Putting Ardus in side them might be worth it in a max formation unit, 3 die a ton of wounds and threat 4? Okay. Gives them some real teeth at that point. Real slow, real cumbersome, but just so efficient for a tar pit.
One again, all of these units effectiveness could change tremendously once we see the upgrade cards. The few that I have ran the numbers on have proven to be extremely effective at boosting a units power level. So all of this is just a first blush assessment with no table time.
PS: One thing I forgot to mention is how powerful a *hit* effect on a dial is. A unit with one of these on their dial tend to be very cost efficient damage wise as their size goes up because of its interaction with threat value. -
When they are marching in to engage the reanimate archers they have effectively twice as much health because of their armor increase on blue. It doesn't have to be a literal +1 health for guys to thematically represent trained infantry versus reanimated skeletons. If design was strictly limited to +1 health armor or dice to express increased ferocity of the warrior in question; that would be quite boring.
Compare their wheel to reanimates, one displays that of a slow moving horde of bones, the other is a force of soldiers trained to execute many maneuvers with precision. I consider it a plus that this was simulated beyond just quantitative values. If you look at a lot of units, you can tell they tried very hard to make these units behave in a way that is extremely thematically pleasing. -
3 hours ago, Taki said:Thinking about it, I'm not sure I like that heavily armored infantry has the same armor value as the archers. I wonder if there are cards that make their armor count for more than the tissue that it currently counts as
For cost and because of their ability to raise their armor by 1 while marching, The Daqan Spearmen has the most effective hp, against shooting in the game for their price outside of reanimates. With a difference of about a 1/5th of a point on model basis. Noticeably faster and with their modifier on their red attack one of the more effective units for damage.
This is with out cards. With Front line rune golem they blow a lot of things out of the way, except the two smallest squads of oathsworn calvary and and the two smallest rune golem squads when double bue is active. They tie with the 2 by 1 rune golem formation for effective HP and crush the calvary, while being some what fast and a really universal command wheel and modifier wheel.
I think Kari will be able to attach to them in the future, probably give them an extra white die, which increase their output(IF it does) to the highest by measures, and a white die will also increase the chances of getting inspiration up more frequently which would you to repeatedly use some upgrade cards for some crazyness.
Daqan Spearmen are looking good in my book! -
5 hours ago, Budgernaut said:Just to be clear, the purpose behind my response above was not for the purpose of arguing over whether this game is expensive or not. Rather, I'm disappointed in posts like the one below that are attacking other posters for not being logical. I'm demonstrating that we don't have to be knowledgeable about other miniatures games we have absolutely no interest in to participate in this conversation and to have an opinion on relative cost of the game. We can still use numbers to justify our positions even if we're clueless about other games. I just don't like seeing concealed jabs like this in our community.
It's not a jab. When they released the price point for the package, I thought wow that seems a bit high. Instead of complaining about it, I went and looked up equivalent models quality compared their price, compared the amount of dollar required to actually be invested enough in the game at a reasonably competitive level and with those numbers it was apparent that the prices were reasonable. To be fair, I also have a spread sheet with all the units stats comparing their average damage per point, health per point, and all their available actions and the speeds that they can make them. So, ya know, numbers.
Budgernaut reacted to this -
1 hour ago, costi said:And objectively more expensive than others, like By Fire and Sword, which is also a very good rank-and-file game, albeit not fantasy.
BTW. "still not as expensive as others" does not mean it isn't expensive.
You have to talk about it in a relativistic sense. Miniature games tend to be expensive. This is comparatively on the cheap end for such a hobby. I do believe that is a fair statement. Now if you are a typical non mini gamer and you see the prices, I can understand the shock. Price per model and game scale is relatively low to just about any other major company outside of Mantic. However, Mantic models look like **** and I would rather play with cards or discs then play with them.
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1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:
I think you'll find the contention here is that the outrage is *not*, in fact, legitimate, or at least not justified.
It's really not.
This game is objectively cheaper than many others it is in direct competition with.Absolutely, but from what I've realized people don't want to go with the hard math available, they want to go with their gut emotional response.
Now you could make the argument the miniature games are too expensive of a hobby,(because they are certainly an expensive hobby and the first luxury to go when income subsides.), but Runewars is definitely among the lowest priced of them and brings along the AAA quality they we have come to love and respect from FFG. -
2 minutes ago, Oloh said:Very good point. The heroes could, perhaps, be sold in a two pack, with 2 different sculpted "heroic" bases, one for single infantry...like Kari and Ardus...and one for the cavalry versions.
I think that is exactly how they will be sold. Probably 30 dollars, a mounted and a on foot form.
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No that is definitely the skill symbol but at the end of the first line looks like rune symbol.
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I had wrote Moment of Inspiration and Exhaust on my pad.
Some of the others I have is:
The Reanimate banner increases something by 1. Perhaps charging
The Waiqar Drummer is 4 armor 1 hit 3 or 5 points and does something with panic effects.
The Daqan banner is 1 armor 1 hit maybe 2 points for steadfast fear
The Daqan Hornsman is 1 armor 1 hit and does something with a rune color for 1, maybe a heal? -
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Vorakesh is a hero and does not need a squad to be ran on his calvary base, of that I am almost certain.
For him to be ran in squad would be a upgrade card similar to Ardus.
I do agree we will be seeing calvary command sooner or later for Daqan. -
Thanks! I am so eager for this. Conquest really spoiled me with the dials and no other game has really come close to scratching the itch that it did and I think this is the one.
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11 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:Ardus also tends to do alot more up front damage due to rolling two white dice, which can be pretty brutal. If you want to hack down one unit fast, Ardus is a bit better, if you want to be able to whittle away at ranged units even while locking up another unit, Kari rocks at that.
Are you limited to one of each type upgrade per a unit or can you have multiple of the same types?
Also: How are wounds assigned if for instance you have a front line rune golem in your spearmen squad and a character upgrade with a higher then normal armor value but less than the front line rune golem. Lets say the golem has 4 armor and the champion 3 armor and the unit receives 3 damage, could you assign it to the golem for it to bounce off or does it have to go to the champion model that it could hurt? -
Surges are found on every die.
hit-surge on Red
Surge/Hit-Surge/Surge-Surge on bluehit-surge/hit-surge/surge-surge/surge-morale on white
I believe off the probability calculator shes around a 92 percent chance to hit a surge every single time, this doesn't factor in that two of the surges are doubles.
If you flank her with you can add an extra blue to really get it going. I think her dial has a surge icon present as well. She's pretty brutal up front, but I think
Ardus probably gets the craziest by stealing surge abilities from his team.
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Well her melee surge is 5 range which is really long she could flanking reanimates and popping off the archers.
Reanimates look to be a decent tarpit, it seems like off how the rune system works that as long as the tray isn't annihilated you are pretty likely to get back two a turn. I also fully expect the necromancer to boost that ability, combine it with terrifying heraldry and I bet you get a unit that can just grind out whatever is engaged with it, till it panics. Also double red gives them a decent amount of punch with the ability to go an impressive 4 by 4 at 1.33 point per a model! I also expect they will get something like front line rune golem for the daqan spearmen. -
19 minutes ago, Kubernes said:I honestly prefer two 3 tray units for the flexibility. No reroll but two potential attacks instead of one. Not counting upgrades and the like.
I do think that having two two tray units would also be valid, the pits fall in it of course are that the red die have 2 blanks, so the re-roll is pretty important on any given red die unit. The biggest deal I think will come down to the equipment available as almost all of them have been pretty impact full.
Also, I think Kari will absolutely butcher small units of reanimate archers, her melee attack surge ability is no freaking joke. -
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Points per model.
An example is Oathsworn Calvary starts out at 20 points for 2 trays of 2 models each. This ends up equaling 5 points per a model.
Kind of important for combat and knowing what can trade with what favorably. With that chart I know when my oathsworn charge into some reanimates, I want to kill at least 5 points worth of reanimates. I.E. Greater than a trays worth. Or that when I'm fighting a carrion lancer, an acceptable loss is 3 calvary per a lancer. Now this isn't always true because a unit doesn't have to make it's point back, it just has to "earn" it, however I used oathsworn for this example because the unit is pretty killy and that should be something it does. However, I wouldn't expect a unit of reanimates to kill it's worth of points. -
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Multiple Small Units.
It usually finds its strength for several reasons:
Tons of Targets forces overkill,(this is highlighted even more so in this game because bigger units don't get more attacks.)
Being able to block charge lanes effectively and take charges on small units and deliver counter punches/flanks more effectively
Being able to take more special weapons/command options
This game has built in several options to combat MSU tactics but not sure if it invalidates it. -
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Oathsworn: Formation 1: 5 ppm Formation 2: 4.25 ppm Formation 3: 5.5 ppm Formation 4: 4.89 ppm
Rune Golem: Formation 1: 17 ppm Formation 2: 14 ppm Formation 3: 12.5 ppm Formation 4: 12.3 ppm
Spearmen: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 1.875 ppm Formation 3: 1.67 Formation 4: 1.63 ppmCarrion Lancer: Formation 1: 15 ppm Formation 2: 13.5 ppm Formation 3: 11.5 ppm Formation 4: 11.3 ppm
Reanimate Archers: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 2 ppm Formation 3: 1.875 ppm
Reanimates: Formation 1: 2 ppm Formation 2: 1.625 ppm Formation 3: 1.458 ppm Formation 4: 1.388 ppm Formation 5: 1.333 ppm
Oathsworn not getting cheaper is pretty interesting. Probably has to do with they are pretty hardcore damage/toughness wise. -
I do believe, off of some very hard eye straining, that the two command packs even share the non faction specific upgrades.
Expansions announced
in Runewars Miniatures Game
Posted
To go along with the excellent post above me.
Armor/Health and any combination of it can be represented by the ability to shrug off non grievous wounds. a 1 health 1 armor skeleton and a 1 health 1 armor spear men possess many different combat abilities that was summarized fairly well. This goes along with archers as well, who while might being carrying way less armor, are much more adept at dodging a blow. These values, like in any other game, are not absolute representations of a units strengths and weakness in realistic portrayal because it's only two values. It would take a dozen of stat lines to present a realistic portrayal of their combat capabilities in the most accurate sense. It should be assumed that in a relative sense, that an undead archer, footman, and a trained soldier have about the same general defensive abilities as a whole, when you account for all of their strengths and weaknesses.