zero9300
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Posts posted by zero9300
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Doesn't just looking at list composition take player skill out of the equation? Does a competitive tournament setting really play to the flexibility of a jack-of-all-trades ship?
For a long time in WH40k the Space Marine was the average, jack-of-all trades infantry unit but you didn't see tournament lists using tons of them. Tournament winning lists were very specialized rock-paper-scissors affairs that tried to make sure your rock crushed scissors and tried to mitigate the effect of paper.
A big distinction that I am not sure many players understand about the mathwing you see in MJ's thread is that answering whether a ship is a good value or not doesn't answer how exactly a ship is best played. Ships are far from one-dimensional. However, whatever kind of list you are building, you need to make sure that what you are bringing is giving you enough utility for its points. Plenty of matches have some phase - a turn or two or the entire length - where ships end up slugging it out, or "jousting," and so is a good place to start looking when there aren't any other tricks to start valuing a ship by. For example, the x-wing has no repositioning ability out of the box, so it has some need to be efficient in a situation where they are firing and also taking damage (which they currently fail to do). Without some improvement in its capability that makes the x-wing a good deal, it effectively needs some sort of discount [or else it will continue to decline in use].
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I don't think a -2 astromech would leave the ship overpriced terribly, but it would really deter other choices for astromechs. How many pilots would take R2 astros for a point when they can replace it with a -2 point astro?
You get what you see with a-wings: reluctant to take proton rockets, which can be a good value, simply because the opportunity cost is getting your ship discount it needs to justify placing on the table.
Sure, but the idea would be to offset it with a disadvantage for certain play styles - unlike Chardaan, which is just a flat 'here's a discount if you don't plan to use missiles', this would be an outright penalty.
In the proposed case, getting double-stressed whenever you do a red maneuver.
For a player planning on a joust, or using the X-Wings as pure flankers, that's no real disadvantage at all. But it doesn't completely negate the 1-point R2 for players that plan on using the X-Wings with more aggressive maneuvers that might need to shed stress faster - if you are taking a pilot with a Talent and bringing along Push the Limit or something where you are going to be interested in better ways to shed stress...and specifically NOT piling it up...then the R2 makes a lot more sense than the R1 droid, even at a delta of 3 points difference in cost.
Ask yourself, "is it worth taking a PTL x-wing with R2 astromech?" Whatever people may say, from their anecdotes, math, tournament statistics, most evidence says "no," mostly because almost all other options to spend those points on are more worthwhile by whatever measure you might use.
Now, proposing a discounted option that is virtually necessary to make the ship worth using, that does nothing to make your PTL+R2 x-wing worth using, is only adding another option OTHER THAN your PTL+R2 setup that would be more worthwhile.
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I don't think a -2 astromech would leave the ship overpriced terribly, but it would really deter other choices for astromechs. How many pilots would take R2 astros for a point when they can replace it with a -2 point astro?
You get what you see with a-wings: reluctant to take proton rockets, which can be a good value, simply because the opportunity cost is getting your ship discount it needs to justify placing on the table.
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Lists with fun gimmicks or tricks that might not really hack it in a tournament setting.
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B-wings will still have a place. If naked, the ships are virtually interchangeable, then upgraded versions will see distinctions (x has astro and b-wing has crew, cannon, or system to distinguish)
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Rookies are much easier to waste than almost any other ship in the rebel lineup, and with 3 base attack, it certainly is a nice thing to silence early.
It's a Swiss army knife: it's not the fastest, hardest hitting, most customizable, or sexiest but for 21 points a rookie Xwing is a great value that often doesn't get targeted first. Wedge and Wes are great fun, too.Competitive play.
No fixes needed IMO.
VorackTheGrim and IG88E reacted to this -
Starvipers are kinda like interceptors. Scyks are like big spendy tie fighters. A lot of the other ships are pretty similar to their rebel/imperial counterparts with some upgrade/card text differences. A big change is y-wings with BTL-A4s will pump out damage. Treat it like a b-wing and you'll be fine, though.
The real beast of S&V that is unlike anything else in-game is the ig-2000s. They have a forward facing arc, but with the right upgrades, can catch you by surprise if you aren't aware of its capabilities. Look up game replays with that ship, as you will probably see a couple in a tourney setting.
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I've seen 2 variants of the Bin Pirate swarm, including the Feedback Array, on Vassal
The list has some problems:
- The Z is no TIE fighter in terms of it's stats. It is surprisingly easy to kill 2 Zs in one turn, whereas you can usually only get 1 TIE. This is unfavorable for a swarm in general, but particularly bad for the Feedback Array swarm, which really wants all of it's pieces in play when it closes to the crucial R1 distance.
- The Z is also no TIE fighter in terms of it's dial. You're bringing 8+ clumsy ships with limited hard turn options, no post-dial re-positioning, mediocre green options and arguably the worst of the available K-turns. Bumping will be an issue, and terrain will be a headache.
- No Howlrunner. You won't be able to convert any fraction of your blanks into crits, keep your focus for defense or shoot any dice at PS 8. You also don't have a nice piece of 3-4 agility bait sitting at the rear of your formation, tempting your opponent to take high variance shots instead of R1-R2 shots against your generics.
Zs are great, efficient fillers, but I don't think they can carry a list on their own.
I have been using tie and z-95s a lot lately and I really don't think the differences are very pronounced when thinking about their pragmatic use. I never felt like it would have changed the outcome of a match if I had used the opposite faction's option. I don't have much to say about feedback array except I am no advocate of it.
-Z-95s and ties have the same mean and mode shots to destroy, mean is always within a few percent as you shift the attacker's strength into high damage or low damage. Significantly as well, the ties have a higher chance of dying in a single shot. That is, period. The distribution is simply more spread on ties. I heard someone mention in my local group "well I have seen more z-95s die in one shot than I have tie fighters" however, in a strict, hard way, any attack that would one shot a z-95 would also one shot a tie, regardless of the result of the added agility die. If indeed there are more z-95s being one-shot then ties, it is not a result of the stats alone.
-The dial differences are not game changing. I sometimes wish ties could 1 forwards or bank sometimes. I sometimes wish z-95s could 1 hard. The greens are all the same except a 3 forwards swapped for a 1 forwards. I sometimes wish I could barrel roll with z-95s. I sometimes wish I could take target locks with ties.
-Serissu can give the opposite side of that coin, and the z-95s can personally take and hold onto TLs to bolster their own attacks--especially at opportune moments where a howlrunner might not have lasted. Ties are chained to howlrunner to get better attacks. Z-95s are chained to serissu to get better defense.
My point being, on the field, when you think about how you use them, they really do perform remarkably similarly, and most often are left alone while taking shots and inching their way closer to range 1 on choice targets. In a list comprised of only 1 or the other, I might pick ties because I like barrel rolling. However, in a list with any other ships choices, the faction is the one that dictates the choice.
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I always thought it said 28.
It did... Not sure why people thought it was 29, maybe they are trying to make it to be Wes/Wedge comparison? No idea.
The image in OP's post shows 29. FFG changed it.
Bipolar Potter reacted to this -
So Cobra is 28. 3 things: 1 FFG listens 2 Generic gets closer to 20 points 3 Zero has to redo all his math
"FFG listens" implies that they saw a couple of threads on the forum and thought "Hey, those anonymous strangers are right! We should skip all the design and playtesting we did and make everything cheaper." Does that seem like the most reasonable hypothesis?
EDIT: Especially given that we know for sure there was an error in the Hound's Tooth image?
I think if anything useful from these forums could be found by FFG, it is only the opinions and attitudes of a handful of players.
Did I really say "useful"?
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The turret is a primary weapon, so range 1 Miranda could pull together a 4 dice primary. With good timing and maybe even some arc dodging, that could be really powerful.
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Might be some use with munitions failsafe: pop off a missile/torpedo and follow up with a primary attack if it doesn't hit. Would be doubly good with stresspedoes giving stress.
Hmm: Miranda + Gunner + Flechette Torpedoes + Munitions Failsafe. Attack with the torpedoes, reducing their Attack by 1 using her pilot ability. So you trade a target lock to get +1 shield and give (most) targets a stress token, then follow that up with a primary turret attack.
I don't know. It's clever, but it costs 8 points, only works against enemies in your firing arc (meaning you're at the mercy of the K-wing's still-unspoiled dial) and still leaves you with pretty substandard offensive output.
You also need to be holding onto a TL. Failsafe would also use up the mod slot that advanced slam uses, which may turn out to be killer. You also fall into a pitfall if your flechette torpedo ends up hitting (it is a 2-dice attack when reduced, followed by a 2-dice primary...), you can't keep using your gimmick. Just seems way too elaborate for small gains.
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Per-turn damage mitigation/regeneration has a stronger effect the longer the ship can naturally stay alive; It has a non-linear relationship. C3-p0 on that ship, compared to a falcon, would not be adding the same amount of time to the ship's lifespan. Damage output is also a concern. C3-p0 on a falcon is defending a 3-attack dice turret. On this thing, it would be defending a 2-attack turret unless you spend more points on the munitions. If the munitions on it are powerful enough, it could be worth it.
Gunner, however, doesn't sound like a great value in any case. It is 5 points for a poor "consolation prize" of a 2-dice attack, but will more often be triggered with a 2-dice attack than a 3...
LaserBrain reacted to this -
PS will never not matter. Each wave's meta saw something bidding for PS or playing with it, though in the past that was done to shoot first--to remove enemy ships before they have a chance to shoot. A lot of little bidding used to be going on down at generic PS levels, bidding to fire before other generics at PS 1-2. Since positioning got really powerful, efficient PS 9+ started to matter more and more.
e: I still do it on ties and z-95s a lot, whether or not it is always wise. 1 point per ship for +2 PS seems worth it. Recently, I played a match where bidding my scum z-95s let me to zap a R3-A2 BTL-A4 y-wing first round of shooting in range 2. It feels strong, even if any unique pilot won't be phased.
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I have been using plenty of scum z-95s and y-wings and have been doing pretty well. Mostly flying miniswarms rather than a pure swarm (4 z-95s or 2 z-95s and 1-2 y-wings alongside some other ship). 5 ships in scum is pretty swarmy if they include a y-wing or two, especially with BTL y-wings being kinda like two ships (or ship and a half) taped together.
All too often I find the MVP of a match ends up being a z-95 or y-wing who got in the right place at the right time.
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I think the article was updated-Cobra looks to be 28 points today.
Did not realize that. Edited my previous post accordingly.
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@Zero9300
I have no idea what you just said, but thanks for your support.
At this point, mostly useless nonsense.
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I know it is super early to be doing this...
But I put some mathwing into Mr. Cobra to look at how well he is faring. I know I have been kinda doom-and-gloom in this thread, but I want to be a bit more optimistic than that.
On its face, everyone feels the ability is pretty good. Extra range 3 defense dice? Great! Extra range 1 attack dice? Killer! But what, if anything, can we begin to infer of his value?
First thing, his PS1 adjusted cost is 20.36 points (this is only based on his PS, EPT slot, and his printed cost--this does not necessarily imply anything about the cheapo generic cost).
Next, calculating his Expected Damage Output, he comes out to a nice 1.96 normalized. This was pretty quick and easy, just using an existing function and adding +1 dice only in the case of range 1 attacks.
Then, calculating his Expected Durability. Also easy, though slightly less quick. Had to create a new HitCritPDF array that includes adding another +1 dice for range 3 cases. Chug the array through a mean rounds to destroy function and his normalized durability is about 1.22 (a tad above an x-wing, remember that 1 shield for a hull puts the ship's durability a tad below without cobra's text).
Throwing together EDO and EDur, his JV is 19.43. Against his PS1 cost, this gives him a 95.55% joust efficiency. This is not bad out of the box for a PS 9, but he also has an EPT slot we haven't used yet. There are going to be plenty of options out there, but the first ones that comes to my mind is predator or PTL (we don't know what his dial looks like--PTL could be prohibitive if there aren't enough greens). Both of these upgrades are 3 points added to his base cost (so 31 now), adjusting for PS1, he scores a 22.55 adjusted cost. Both of these upgrades will also adjust his EDO. Free rerolls are strong.
His EDO, JV, and joust efficiency for predator and PTL are then below:
EPT choice EDO JV Jeff 1-reroll predator: 2.499 | 22.23 | 98.61% 2-reroll predator: 2.741 | 23.40 | 103.79% PTL (always-rerolls): 2.834 | 23.84 | 105.73%There are certainly more things you could do with talonbane, and numbers never tell the whole story. But if nothing else, he looks pretty good value for a PS bid jouster who becomes very punishing within range 1.
e: edited for the updated point cost--he is 28 not 29 now
Punning Pundit reacted to this -
Tie swarm was heavily dominant in wave 1. X-wings held on competitively almost completely due to tricks like Biggs forcing a swarm to shoot him range 3 obstructed while his teammates got range 2 shots in. That and PS usually meant if any ties were out of position(such as a range band too close) they got punished hard.I don't think the X-wing is over costed relative to the TIE fighter, one X-wing versus 2 TIE fighters is still a pretty even match.
The X-wing was on some accounts was considered overpowered during wave 1 when it was the only 3 attack dice ship. The X-wings durability only becomes a massive concern when 3 and 4 dice attacks become prevalent.
Unfortunately as more ships appeared that had 3 dice the relative efficiency of the X-wing dropped (not helped by the X and the B being so similar in price).
That being said Scum don't currently have a ship that fits the B-wing mold, well they do in the Starviper, but the cost difference is sufficient to not supersede the Kihraxz entirely. Y-wings are slightly more expensive and Scyk's of similar cost (mangler) fall more into the glass cannon interceptor mold. That being said I still think it would be more functional at 20 points, because 3 plus a 40 point Starviper would be a reasonable list. For example just try fitting Scyk's with Autoblaster (21) into a list compared with mangos at 20.
Wave 2 came around to give rebels HSF lists where 2 rookies were the best filler to put alongside Han at the time. Interceptors kinda dragged wave 1 rebel lists through the dirt, who already struggled with swarms, who still were quite good.
Wave 3 gave us the b-wing, whose generics replaced rookies whenever a point could be spared.
Wave 4 gave us z-95s, which offered a cheaper alternative with a lot more efficiency... Need I go on?
X-wings were never overpowered, especially not generics. They pretty much were included as filler when no other rebel option was better and are now virtually obsolete. Y-wings with btl-a4 do a fairly good job at filling a quasai b-wing mold for scum for only 1 point more. It would be nice for scum to have a jouster with plain 3 primary attack, but emulating x-wings, without a cost reduction, would be a step backwards given how much better their z-95s and y-wings already are.
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I think he is talking about numbers of ships, not numbers of salvaged astromechsWell, it would be weird for one ship to have access to the same amount of droids as 3, wholly seperate releases. 4 if you count the x wing blister, 5 if you count the transport.
Why would you expect 20-some options for one ship?
Bipolar Potter reacted to this -
I'm really curious to see the effect and its cost. They could be really powerful.
Not to ruin the dream of putting down a line of these things to mark your territory, but if they don't do damage on their own, you may need another ship to exploit the enemy's ioned ships.
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I think C is a bit better than D if you insist on not using B.
FCS is a good choice. Compared to advanced sensors, you just need to give yourself more room while planning. Keep distance, hammer things from afar, repeatedly hit the same target. It takes a couple turns to get going, but you will be putting the hurt on and getting a better chance of lining up a TL+focus shot than adv sensors.
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Glitterstim looks really neat. I could see a couple of strong attackers taking a TL and shooting up stims in an opening volley. Single use for 2 points makes it a little hard to love, though.
What I don't understand: The desire to "fix" the X-Wing
in X-Wing
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I wonder if that is an experiment Paul Heaver would be willing to be subjected to.