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Jabberwocki

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  1. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from GroggyGolem in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Yes, I agree that that is implied by Sam's answer. Any immunity to the force a creature may have should also be applied to the Social Check Upgrade.
    For many (maybe most) GM's this includes Hutts and Toydarians.
  2. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from GroggyGolem in FFG Developer Answered Questions   
    This reply from Sam  was previously posted on: Question regarding Influence basic power.
    The question is regarding the "Social Check Upgrade" of the Influence force power. That is, the upgrade that allows you to add your force dice to the social skills: Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation.
    This question was: besides adding Success and Advantages to the roll, do I also have to spend pips on Range, Magnitude and Duration upgrades when using this power?
  3. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from GroggyGolem in FFG Developer Answered Questions   
    This was a follow up question to clarify how to use the Influence "Social Check" Control Upgrade in general, and to confirm its usage in 2 specific cases.
  4. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Richardbuxton in FFG Developer Answered Questions   
    This was a follow up question to clarify how to use the Influence "Social Check" Control Upgrade in general, and to confirm its usage in 2 specific cases.
  5. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Richardbuxton in FFG Developer Answered Questions   
    This reply from Sam  was previously posted on: Question regarding Influence basic power.
    The question is regarding the "Social Check Upgrade" of the Influence force power. That is, the upgrade that allows you to add your force dice to the social skills: Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation.
    This question was: besides adding Success and Advantages to the roll, do I also have to spend pips on Range, Magnitude and Duration upgrades when using this power?
  6. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Blah, but ok. The Almighty Sam has spoken. We can play at the same table again. 
  7. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Tramp Graphics in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    OK, so we're both right. I can live with that. That should also mean that others who are immune to mind affecting powers also are immune to the Social checks upgrade. 
  8. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well?
    I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading.
    But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place:
    At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up. The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power!
    And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions.
    This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right?
    Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics).
    How about you, AK?
    Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have.
    However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply.
    I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works.
    If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer... 
  9. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well?
    I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading.
    But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place:
    At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up. The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power!
    And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions.
    This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right?
    Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics).
    How about you, AK?
    Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have.
    However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply.
    I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works.
    If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer... 
  10. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Are you going to answer my question from earlier`? To quote myself:
     
  11. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Ahrimon in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    And I'm pretty sure almost everyone reads the RAW, RAI, and RAF the same way you and I do.  Those that believe any use of influence is affecting someone else spear to be in the minority.  A very vocal and stubborn minority, but a minority none the less.
  12. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    And that is where you are mistaken. 
    YOU cannot at your table. 
    But I can at my table. 
  13. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    I think we have to agree to disagree.
    At my table, the social upgrade enhances the user and doesn't affect the target directly (meaning a droid could be influenced indirectly thru the words and actions of the force user that is being influenced by the force) just as the description implies.
    Your table, all aspects of force use for that power (including the social control upgrade) directly affects the target not the force user. 
  14. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Ahrimon in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Unless of course you are upgrading your own ability with the force and not attempting to use the other part of the power to manipulate the minds of others.  But that's pretty obvious.
  15. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    You always get pips when rolling a force die. The PC then chooses whether to use them or not. A light-side user may still choose to use the dark-side if they feel compelled to. 
    So the target didn't resist the force, instead the user chose not to use it, despite feeling the seductive embrace of the dark-side. 
  16. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...? 
    But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule.
    As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!
  17. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from GroggyGolem in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...? 
    But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule.
    As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!
  18. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Ahrimon in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...? 
    But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule.
    As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!
  19. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    "You will use bold font for emphasis and debate people in this thread. "
    So did I give you a command a couple posts ago? Or was it a prediction?
     
  20. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Randy G in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Personally I think Palpatine only used his natural ability to do all this. The book "Darth Plagueis", tells the story.
    A force user can mask his ability (although I have not found such a power in the Star Wars RPG) however, you cannot use the force and mask it at the same time. Usage of the force really lights up to a Jedi (and even less trained force sensitives). A particular strong usage would look like fireworks to them, no matter what kinds of dampening effects are in place.
    Nevertheless, if you want to influence "thousands within the same auditorium" using the force, the only way to do this in the Star Wars RPG is to use the Influence Social Upgrade power. The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade (which is more effective because of the mind control aspect) cannot be used on such a large number of people because you would need to roll over 300 pips to effect 1000 people!
    The Social Upgrade, is not limited in this way because it is an enhancement to the natural Skills like Charm and Negotiation, which can be used to influence 1000's people.
    However, everything I have read tells me that if Palpatine had used the force to enhance his social abilities this would have been noticed, and his force abilities exposed before he had the chance to gain control.
  21. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to GroggyGolem in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Just gonna thow this out there and be done commenting.
     
    Of the social checks in the game, none of them get someone to do what you want 100% of the time when you succeed.
    A successful charm roll just means you get on someone's good side. Could that benefit you with things they are willing to reveal in conversation? Sure. Does it make them instantly fall under your spell and do everything you ask? No, it's not mind control.
    How about Deception? A successful roll means that the target believes the lie, it does not mean they act upon that lie.
    Coercion? It's very likely someone will do what you want with coercion but it's also possible that they don't, as people react differently to threats of violence. Some flee in terror or shut down mentally.
     
    I'd say the closest thing we have to mind control in the game is the emotion/belief upgrade to influence.
     
    Target a Stormtrooper, succeed the opposed check and roll dark side pips. The Stormtrooper now believes his allies murdered his parents in a dark alleyway on Coruscant when he was 8 years old and he feels an intense rage like never before. He's very likely to start shooting them now, as to him, it's the perfect moment to seek vengeance.
  22. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Silim in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Actually it is in the game! Sentinel Shadow career/spec, talent: Shroud. You can use force powers during the scene in which you use Shroud with impunity and NOBODY will be able to tell that its coming from you. Hell they won't even know that you're force sensitive at all with that ability active.
     
    ...In the campaign I'm planning, the Emperor for that game has this talent. So it'll be fun making her show up during the campaign multiple times, them getting a convenient Destiny Point (without knowing from what) and interacting on friendly terms with a mortal enemy. Which is basically what old Palps did during the prequel era.
  23. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    Tramps, you have misunderstood the mechanics!
    The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade does not boost the opposed Discipline check.
    To succeed using this aspect of the power you have to succeed at the opposed Discipline check and roll at least one pip in order to activate the power.
    On the other hand, the Social Upgrade allows you to add Successes and Advantages to the result if the Social Skill check, in the same way that the Enhance powers work. This means the Social Upgrade can work, even if you roll no pips, and do not use the force at all!
    The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade requires that both work, the basic Discipline check must succeed, and you must use the force.
    This is a  fundamentally difference in mechanics shows that the difference is much more than just the skill involved. It also gives the usage of the 2 aspects of Influence a complete different "feeling". The player is aware of using the force to directly influence his target when using the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade.
    When using the Social Check Upgrade, the player has the distinct feeling that he is indirectly influencing his opponent(s), because he is using the force to give his natural ability a boost, which may or may not be necessary to succeed.
  24. Like
    Jabberwocki got a reaction from Ahrimon in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    You should never hang your understanding of RAW on just one phrase or sentence. The entire description of the Upgrade makes it clear that "believe something untrue", is not the only way this power works when altering thoughts.
    Besides, "making people believe things that are untrue" is also what you do when you use Deception. So, why include this aspect in the upgrade (the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade) when this is done with a Social Upgrade check using Deception? By your understanding of RAW the Alter Thoughts aspect of the power is redundant, and the upgrade should just be about altering emotions!
    However, as we have already established by multiple arguments: there is a clear different between the upgrades: the Alter Thoughts aspect of the Upgrade is what everyone knows as the Jedi Mind Trick, and the Social Upgrade is just an enhancement to the regular social checks, which we are also all familiar with.
    Unfortunately, despite that fact that everybody is convinced of this, you are still afraid that we are violating RAW because of the phrase "... believe something untrue".
    Well, @Stan Fresh to the rescue with an observation that may finally help you to overcome this last obstacle...!!
    'nough said! 
  25. Like
    Jabberwocki reacted to Stan Fresh in Question regarding Influence basic power   
    No, you shouldn't. Rolling really well on an Athletics check doesn't let you jump straight to the moon either. Getting a great result on a social check doesn't let you violate basic human behavior,  either.

    Not withouttthe Force.
     
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