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Jabberwocki

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Everything posted by Jabberwocki

  1. This was a follow up question to clarify how to use the Influence "Social Check" Control Upgrade in general, and to confirm its usage in 2 specific cases.
  2. This reply from Sam was previously posted on: Question regarding Influence basic power. The question is regarding the "Social Check Upgrade" of the Influence force power. That is, the upgrade that allows you to add your force dice to the social skills: Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation. This question was: besides adding Success and Advantages to the roll, do I also have to spend pips on Range, Magnitude and Duration upgrades when using this power?
  3. He, he Yup, can't say that I can absolutely make "sense" of it, but I am OK with following a clear ruling.
  4. Yes, I agree that that is implied by Sam's answer. Any immunity to the force a creature may have should also be applied to the Social Check Upgrade. For many (maybe most) GM's this includes Hutts and Toydarians.
  5. And, I also asked a follow up question, with 2 examples that have been relevant to our table: So, general speaking, you can use the Social Check Upgrade to, for example, influence "the troops" or Charm an audience and, it will normally also work over a comm link.
  6. And, that the restrictions do not apply, is what I have been saying, from the get go. So, I finally put this question to FFG, and here is the exchange: So, @AK_Aramis is correct, droids are not affected by a force enhanced social check. But, the aspects of the Influence power like Range, Duration and Magnitude, do not apply to the Upgrade.
  7. That line, to me, makes it mind affecting either way - — if youre directly modding the mind of a specific target, you get to directly set their emotional state, do stress, etc — if you're hitting groups, you're still affecting THEIR minds, but spreading the same energy out over a wider area; this is represented by augmenting the skill check. It's not focused inward - it's explicitly acting on the group. It's making them all more susceptible to your arguments, not making your arguments better. "sway large crowds" is something you can do with a normal Charm or Leadership check, so there is no need to think that this aspect of the power is mind altering. "not making your arguments better" ... ?! But the description of the Upgrade specifically specifies that the power improves your arguments, see page 295 of F&D:
  8. I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well? I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading. But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place: At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up. The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power! And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions. This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right? Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics). How about you, AK? Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have. However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply. I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works. If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer...
  9. I have heard that "grey" force using is going to be an important theme for episode 8. So, we will see... Note the wording. It's not "changes the base power" - it's an upgrade of the base. And because of the rules for Nemesis and PC targets, it's always an opposed roll when they're present. Note the wording also says: "add new effects to Force powers". The social upgrade is such a "new effect". It is part of Influence because it is also about influencing people. However, it works "indirectly", by enhancing your natural abilities. It is similar (if not identical, considering the wording used) to the powers that improve Piloting and other skills granted by Enhance. Such a power, for example, does not work by manipulating the vehicle you are piloting with the force, instead the force is used to make you a better pilot by improving your reflexes, etc. It is likely that young Anakin used the same kind of force power to fly his Podracer, even before he knew that he was using the force to do it. Anyway, if you want to say that droids are immune to even this kind of use of the force, then that's OK with me. I am just saying, there is good reason under RAW that this is not necessarily the case.
  10. You now, Tramps, you can repeat this as much as you like, it is not going to make it correct. As @Ahrimon says: And that would appear to be a minority of one! In this thread we have presented good arguments and countered every objection you have had, now I have to agree with @Randy G: And I am glad (sorry to say) that I am not at your table, because your interpretation of the rules, in this case, is really worse than incorrect, it is a fun killer! By muddying the Influence upgrades you are robbing your players of using "the jedi mind trick" as we know it from the movies. And, you are forcing characters that want to be "grey force users" to choose between becoming a jedi, or not using Influence at all! It is really quite sad...
  11. And that is where you are mistaken. YOU cannot at your table. But I can at my table. Oops, failed Discipline check on that attempted mind trick... LOL
  12. You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...? But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule. As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!
  13. One thing he does, which is not in the game, is hide his force abilities. I would be interested in doing this but none of the powers available so far appear to do this. There are many situations where you do not want other force users to know you have force powers, or detect your presence. So such a power would be very useful.
  14. Personally I think Palpatine only used his natural ability to do all this. The book "Darth Plagueis", tells the story. A force user can mask his ability (although I have not found such a power in the Star Wars RPG) however, you cannot use the force and mask it at the same time. Usage of the force really lights up to a Jedi (and even less trained force sensitives). A particular strong usage would look like fireworks to them, no matter what kinds of dampening effects are in place. Nevertheless, if you want to influence "thousands within the same auditorium" using the force, the only way to do this in the Star Wars RPG is to use the Influence Social Upgrade power. The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade (which is more effective because of the mind control aspect) cannot be used on such a large number of people because you would need to roll over 300 pips to effect 1000 people! The Social Upgrade, is not limited in this way because it is an enhancement to the natural Skills like Charm and Negotiation, which can be used to influence 1000's people. However, everything I have read tells me that if Palpatine had used the force to enhance his social abilities this would have been noticed, and his force abilities exposed before he had the chance to gain control.
  15. Tramps, you have misunderstood the mechanics! The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade does not boost the opposed Discipline check. To succeed using this aspect of the power you have to succeed at the opposed Discipline check and roll at least one pip in order to activate the power. On the other hand, the Social Upgrade allows you to add Successes and Advantages to the result if the Social Skill check, in the same way that the Enhance powers work. This means the Social Upgrade can work, even if you roll no pips, and do not use the force at all! The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade requires that both work, the basic Discipline check must succeed, and you must use the force. This is a fundamentally difference in mechanics shows that the difference is much more than just the skill involved. It also gives the usage of the 2 aspects of Influence a complete different "feeling". The player is aware of using the force to directly influence his target when using the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade. When using the Social Check Upgrade, the player has the distinct feeling that he is indirectly influencing his opponent(s), because he is using the force to give his natural ability a boost, which may or may not be necessary to succeed.
  16. You should never hang your understanding of RAW on just one phrase or sentence. The entire description of the Upgrade makes it clear that "believe something untrue", is not the only way this power works when altering thoughts. Besides, "making people believe things that are untrue" is also what you do when you use Deception. So, why include this aspect in the upgrade (the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade) when this is done with a Social Upgrade check using Deception? By your understanding of RAW the Alter Thoughts aspect of the power is redundant, and the upgrade should just be about altering emotions! However, as we have already established by multiple arguments: there is a clear different between the upgrades: the Alter Thoughts aspect of the Upgrade is what everyone knows as the Jedi Mind Trick, and the Social Upgrade is just an enhancement to the regular social checks, which we are also all familiar with. Unfortunately, despite that fact that everybody is convinced of this, you are still afraid that we are violating RAW because of the phrase "... believe something untrue". Well, @Stan Fresh to the rescue with an observation that may finally help you to overcome this last obstacle...!! 'nough said!
  17. She rewrites his thought processes. The scene could not be any more explicit on that if Kylo popped into frame, Lego style, holding up a cue card that says "this is a mind trick". Exactly! That is why the trooper (and others that are affected by the mind trick) repeats what is said to him! This shows she has taken control of his thought processes. Check it out for yourself: Hands up who believes Rey is using Charm here ... Honestly @Tramp Graphics, I don't think anyone in the Star Wars universe is agreeing with you.
  18. I'm glad you quoted the wiki, saves me doing it. Notice how close the wiki description is to the Mind Trick Upgrade on page 295 of FaD: This is the only aspect of Influence that is described as influencing the thoughts of the opponent, exactly like the definition from the wiki! In other words, this upgrade is "the mind trick".
  19. This is what we have here. She convinces the storm trooper to release her and drop his weapon, with obviously no hope for remuneration. So, in this case, it's like a the hypnotic "Charm" of a snake charmer or vampire. No, not buying it! appeal: "to make a serious, urgent, or heartfelt request". request: "an act of asking politely or formally for something." When Rey says: "You will remove these restraints...", she is not asking, she is commanding. So why don't you suggest that Rey is using Leadership, which is a Skill that is all about commanding? Or else I can just save us both a lot of time by telling you that the Skill being used is Discipline. In this scene, we have a battle of wills between Rey and the stormtrooper. And this is always handled in Star Wars RPG as an opposed Discipline check. And this is one more good reason why we know that the Mind Trick Upgrade is being used, not the Social Check Upgrade.
  20. Perhaps we can actually agree on something here! "a mind trick" = a mind affecting power "the mind trick" = what Obi Wan did when he said "these are not the droids you are looking for" Although usage of "a mind trick" in this way (which would include Misdirect powers, and others) is not canon, as you may read here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick , section: Behind the scenes. Nevertheless, this warning about mind affecting powers still does not mean that all powers in Influence must affect the mind directly. The Social Check Upgrades are first and foremost Social Skill checks. And that remains so, even after being enhanced by the force. And the description of the Upgrade tells use that! And, with regard to "the mind trick": I agree with @Edgehawk's simple definition: it is like a Suggestion spell in D&D. This definition is also implied by the Wookieepedia authors who write: "When using the mind trick, the practitioner generally adopted a suggestive tone of voice and used a distinctive gesture". If you disagreed with my definition of mind trick, is it too much for me to assume that you nevertheless agree with the writers of Wookieepedia?! Because, if you do agree with the definition of mind trick in Wookieepedia, then you will find the rest of my argument quite compelling... Wookieepedia page: Mind trick gives (among others), 2 examples of the usage of the mind trick which we have discussed before: "Obi-Wan Kenobi used the Jedi mind trick on his last trip to Mos Eisley" "Qui-Gon Jinn used a mind trick to convince Boss Nass to give him a bongo for transport to Theed" So Qui-Gon's usage is considered the same Mind Trick power, even though he used the "command" style, and Obi-Wan used the "believe something untrue" style! This shows clearly that every normal Star Wars fan believes that all usages of this power is one and the same Mind Trick. The FFG developers know this as well, and therefore I am absolutely certain that they never intended to divide the Mind Trick into 2 powers when they created the Influence Force power! Now look me in the eyes while I wave my hand before you and say, in a suggestive tone: "The Influence Social Upgrade is not the Mind Trick you think it is!" I said it would be compelling...
  21. It appears to me that if this is the case then only you are able to determine which of the 2 Influence Upgrades is being used! For the rest of us, how you know this is a mystery: Qui Gon fails in an attempt to tell something that is untrue, why is this not a failed Upgraded Deception check? Luke and Bib are involved in a Combination, so which upgrade do I use? Luke used Coercion or Negotiation, against Jabba but if he used Deception (which is also a social skill), then I must use the other upgrade...? Rey says: "you will remove these restraints", is Social Check upgrade, but if Rey said: "you want to remove these restraints" then suddenly this would require the other upgrade because now she is saying something untrue...!? You are creating confusion and placing an unnecessary burden on us players of the Star Wars RPG. To counteract what I see as misinformation, I want to go back to a definition of the Mind Trick that we actually all agreed upon before you started to muddy the waters: How we identify the "Jedi" Mind Trick: The use of the Mind Trick can be identified by the fact that the user makes a statement that the target is intended to adopt, without any argument or discussion, from either side! The tone of voice makes it clear that the user is not asking, he/she is imposing his/her will on the target. By this definition, ALL the examples above are one and the same Mind Trick, and players who want to do this kind of thing now just need to know which FaD power to use. Let me make this clear: ignore what Tramp Graphics is saying and use this one, from page 295 of the FaD rules: Later in the text it reads "to force the target ... to believe something that is untrue", and gives the example: "These are not the droids you are looking for". Tramp Graphics has gotten hung up on this example, and believes that the power is only about changing emotions and getting people to believe something that is not true. This is not the case. That is only an example. The power is about "altering thoughts and emotions", and doing it by imposing your will on the target. As stated in the first sentence of the Upgrade above. And this is exactly what the Mind Trick does according to our previous understanding of the power (as defined above). On the other hand, the other Upgrade is definitely not the Mind Trick, from page 295, FaD: This is not the Mind Trick because it is everything that the Mind Trick is not: Social checks involve arguments and discussion, which the the Mind Trick does not. Social checks rely on Charisma to achieve results, while a Mind Trick does not. Social checks do not directly alter thoughts, which the Mind Trick does. Social checks are only a battle of wills in the case of Coercion, but the Mind Trick is always a battle of wills. We now have a clear distinction between the 2 powers, and no more confusion about how, and when to use them: If you want to use the classic Mind Trick which we all know (and love): purchase and use the first Control Upgrade (the "Mind Trick Upgrade") listed above. If you want to be more subtle (not overtly a Jedi) and are otherwise good at the social skills: purchase and use the second Control Upgrade (aka the "Social Check Upgrade") listed above. So the Mind Trick Upgrade is powerful, and you don' need to get into any discussion when using it, but people who know about the force may recognise its usage when they see it. The Social Check Upgrade, on the other hand, is much more subtle, but it is not so quick and efficient. However, only a powerful force user can recognise its usage because (s)he senses the use of the force. To others you just look very persuasive!
  22. Yes, this is a good example. She actually fails on the first attempt against the Stormtrooper. But when he gets closer, and is standing next to her, she actually succeeds. When I saw that I thought: hey, these guys have been reading the FaD Influence rules! LOL! Although I'll admit that her first attempt probably failed for more reasons then just "out of range". It was just funny how the exact same thing could happen in a game.
  23. That's a command, He is telling Jabba to do something for him. That's a Social Check. He's not trying to make Jabbe believe something untrue. He's not trying to change Jabbas' emotional state. He's saying do something. In the video example above they say: "You will take us to the holocron." The identical sentence structure used by Luke in the quote above! So, according to you: Mace Windu, Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker are just doing a Social Check here ... !? Sorry, but you are really going to ridiculous lengths here to "prove" your points. These are ALL Jedi Mind Trick attempts. Every Star Wars fan has always known this! There is really not the remotest chance that the author, or anyone else involved in the production, considered these sentences to be some kind of negotiation!!? That's the one thing, the other thing is: the fact that the attempt fails actually tells us nothing! Because, in game (Star Wars RPG) and in the "real life" (films and other canon) both the Mind Trick Upgrade, and the Social Check Upgrade can fail against anyone, even a stormtrooper! Especially, of course, if you are facing an opponent with much higher Discipline (or Cool, or whatever opposing Skill is relevant). So the failure does not prove immunity, or anything else. It is just a useless line of argument.
  24. Yup, absolutely agree! OK, got it: the reason why you cannot include the Force Dice when asked to make a Skill check during Talent activation is because you would then be using a Force Power (not making a Skill check), which is not allowed. I can understand this, but counting Actions by way of explanation does not work , because a Skill Check is ALSO an action, and this is allowed during the Talent activation. So saying that the Skill Check does not count as an Action in the case, but the Force Power (with a Skill Check) does count as an Action just does not make sense. Because elsewhere, both are considered to be one Action. Anyway, I am just being nit picky... I understand the basic rule
  25. This makes sense to me, but what you are saying is: do not apply the Range/Magnitude/Duration restrictions that apply to the other parts of the power. Instead, handle it more like a normal Skill check. I agree that this upgrade would otherwise be not very effective. I accept the dev ruling, which I am sure they apply for "balance" reasons, but the explanation about 2 actions does not make sense, because using the Influence Social Upgrade already requires doing 2 actions at once. If you read the rules, page 294 of F&D: So you are doing 2 checks at once: the Skill Check is an action, and the Influence Power check is an action because every use of a force power is an action (unless otherwise stated). So if the devs can make an exception in this case, they could also make an exception when using a Talent, and you roll a Skill check with a Force check while using a talent. In which case you would actually be doing 3 actions at once. However! they have ruled against this, and they really do not have to give a reason, or make it sound logical: it is just the rule, so OK! But, if they do give a reason for a rule, then they really need to get it right, or it just causes more confusion, for example the rule may be: If explicitly allowed 2 actions may be performed together. But, you are never allowed to add a 3rd action! So if you are using a Talent, which is an action, and you are allowed or required to roll a Skill check, which is also an action (so you have 2 actions), then you are not allowed to also add a force power check, which would result in 3 actions being performed at once.
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