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Jabberwocki

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  1. This was a follow up question to clarify how to use the Influence "Social Check" Control Upgrade in general, and to confirm its usage in 2 specific cases.
  2. This reply from Sam was previously posted on: Question regarding Influence basic power. The question is regarding the "Social Check Upgrade" of the Influence force power. That is, the upgrade that allows you to add your force dice to the social skills: Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation. This question was: besides adding Success and Advantages to the roll, do I also have to spend pips on Range, Magnitude and Duration upgrades when using this power?
  3. He, he Yup, can't say that I can absolutely make "sense" of it, but I am OK with following a clear ruling.
  4. Yes, I agree that that is implied by Sam's answer. Any immunity to the force a creature may have should also be applied to the Social Check Upgrade. For many (maybe most) GM's this includes Hutts and Toydarians.
  5. And, I also asked a follow up question, with 2 examples that have been relevant to our table: So, general speaking, you can use the Social Check Upgrade to, for example, influence "the troops" or Charm an audience and, it will normally also work over a comm link.
  6. And, that the restrictions do not apply, is what I have been saying, from the get go. So, I finally put this question to FFG, and here is the exchange: So, @AK_Aramis is correct, droids are not affected by a force enhanced social check. But, the aspects of the Influence power like Range, Duration and Magnitude, do not apply to the Upgrade.
  7. That line, to me, makes it mind affecting either way - — if youre directly modding the mind of a specific target, you get to directly set their emotional state, do stress, etc — if you're hitting groups, you're still affecting THEIR minds, but spreading the same energy out over a wider area; this is represented by augmenting the skill check. It's not focused inward - it's explicitly acting on the group. It's making them all more susceptible to your arguments, not making your arguments better. "sway large crowds" is something you can do with a normal Charm or Leadership check, so there is no need to think that this aspect of the power is mind altering. "not making your arguments better" ... ?! But the description of the Upgrade specifically specifies that the power improves your arguments, see page 295 of F&D:
  8. I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well? I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading. But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place: At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up. The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power! And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions. This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right? Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics). How about you, AK? Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have. However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply. I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works. If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer...
  9. I have heard that "grey" force using is going to be an important theme for episode 8. So, we will see... Note the wording. It's not "changes the base power" - it's an upgrade of the base. And because of the rules for Nemesis and PC targets, it's always an opposed roll when they're present. Note the wording also says: "add new effects to Force powers". The social upgrade is such a "new effect". It is part of Influence because it is also about influencing people. However, it works "indirectly", by enhancing your natural abilities. It is similar (if not identical, considering the wording used) to the powers that improve Piloting and other skills granted by Enhance. Such a power, for example, does not work by manipulating the vehicle you are piloting with the force, instead the force is used to make you a better pilot by improving your reflexes, etc. It is likely that young Anakin used the same kind of force power to fly his Podracer, even before he knew that he was using the force to do it. Anyway, if you want to say that droids are immune to even this kind of use of the force, then that's OK with me. I am just saying, there is good reason under RAW that this is not necessarily the case.
  10. You now, Tramps, you can repeat this as much as you like, it is not going to make it correct. As @Ahrimon says: And that would appear to be a minority of one! In this thread we have presented good arguments and countered every objection you have had, now I have to agree with @Randy G: And I am glad (sorry to say) that I am not at your table, because your interpretation of the rules, in this case, is really worse than incorrect, it is a fun killer! By muddying the Influence upgrades you are robbing your players of using "the jedi mind trick" as we know it from the movies. And, you are forcing characters that want to be "grey force users" to choose between becoming a jedi, or not using Influence at all! It is really quite sad...
  11. And that is where you are mistaken. YOU cannot at your table. But I can at my table. Oops, failed Discipline check on that attempted mind trick... LOL
  12. You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...? But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule. As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!
  13. One thing he does, which is not in the game, is hide his force abilities. I would be interested in doing this but none of the powers available so far appear to do this. There are many situations where you do not want other force users to know you have force powers, or detect your presence. So such a power would be very useful.
  14. Personally I think Palpatine only used his natural ability to do all this. The book "Darth Plagueis", tells the story. A force user can mask his ability (although I have not found such a power in the Star Wars RPG) however, you cannot use the force and mask it at the same time. Usage of the force really lights up to a Jedi (and even less trained force sensitives). A particular strong usage would look like fireworks to them, no matter what kinds of dampening effects are in place. Nevertheless, if you want to influence "thousands within the same auditorium" using the force, the only way to do this in the Star Wars RPG is to use the Influence Social Upgrade power. The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade (which is more effective because of the mind control aspect) cannot be used on such a large number of people because you would need to roll over 300 pips to effect 1000 people! The Social Upgrade, is not limited in this way because it is an enhancement to the natural Skills like Charm and Negotiation, which can be used to influence 1000's people. However, everything I have read tells me that if Palpatine had used the force to enhance his social abilities this would have been noticed, and his force abilities exposed before he had the chance to gain control.
  15. Tramps, you have misunderstood the mechanics! The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade does not boost the opposed Discipline check. To succeed using this aspect of the power you have to succeed at the opposed Discipline check and roll at least one pip in order to activate the power. On the other hand, the Social Upgrade allows you to add Successes and Advantages to the result if the Social Skill check, in the same way that the Enhance powers work. This means the Social Upgrade can work, even if you roll no pips, and do not use the force at all! The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade requires that both work, the basic Discipline check must succeed, and you must use the force. This is a fundamentally difference in mechanics shows that the difference is much more than just the skill involved. It also gives the usage of the 2 aspects of Influence a complete different "feeling". The player is aware of using the force to directly influence his target when using the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade. When using the Social Check Upgrade, the player has the distinct feeling that he is indirectly influencing his opponent(s), because he is using the force to give his natural ability a boost, which may or may not be necessary to succeed.
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