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Everything posted by Sekac

  1. Why B1s don't have guns attached probably has more to do with their need to function when not in combat as well. They are the most versatile CIS droid, able to interface with a universe largely designed for creatures with at least 2 hands. Sometimes those hands need to be holding a blaster, sometimes they don't. B2s are designed for combat, as opposed as designed with combat capability in mind. Is there a risk of stolen weapons if they're not attached? Of course. But the materiel cost of stolen weapons is a teeny tiny fraction of the cost for a sustained war effort. And integrating the droid and weapons has drawbacks too. It's more expensive because the design is more complicated and you have to design it all. With B1s, you can just give them whatever guns you can get ahold of. I imagine the designs of their larger combat vehicles/droids are based on the same sort of logic. If the goal is purely front line combat, then it definitely makes more sense to have it AI piloted. However, it wasn't just droids in the Separatist army. Having vehicles like the AAT allows non-droids (like Lok Durd) to participate in the war effort. The last thing you want is for a bunch of volunteer soldiers to show up to help out and tell them to go home because all your blasters are bolted onto your droids and all your tanks are inaccessible. Things with a specific purpose can be tailored to that role. But some things' role is to be "general purpose." B1s aren't as good at fighting as B2s, but I bet they can type more words per minute.
  2. That tracks. It didn't do the best job of stopping the Falcon from escaping Hoth. Too much time wasted moving and deploying.
  3. That may be true generally, I don’t know the statistics. We're just talking about the top 8 finishers of a single tournament.
  4. I don't necessarily think so. In every game system, there are lists that seem to appear out of nowhere. Sometimes they arrive following a meta change, and it's the first instance of an innovation. Sometimes they arrive because the player running that list plays nothing else and has tons of experience with it. But because of it's perceived suboptimal nature, nobody has experience playing against it. And sometimes people just get lucky with matchups etc and random stuff appears as a one off. In X-wing, for instance, a friend of mine is known internationally for never really deviating from the style of list he liked no matter what the meta was doing. He made the top cut at Worlds and many other tournaments taking lists that anyone there would tell you are suboptimal. A list is just a list. It only becomes optimal when it's used well. With obviously powerful lists, it's easier to use them well so people gravitate to them. Though difficult, a well piloted "under powered" list can still perform very well.
  5. They could come out with a comms upgrade for vehicles that could do that.
  6. Not trying to pile on, this tangent just interested me. I really don’t think they do have the capability to open doors and such on their own, but I don't think they're designed to be on their own, or part of a main attack where operating in unfamiliar environments are a must. I don’t recall seeing a single one at the Battle of Naboo, fighting the Gungans (though I'm not going to rewatch it just to be sure). We mostly see them in security roles. Either as bodyguards, or quickly available when a situation (usually ignited lightsabers) arises. They're designed for use in friendly territory but are never operating on their own. If there's no functional need for a robot to have a feature, save costs by excluding it. B1s and B2s are designed to act as soldiers, so they need to be able to interact and communicate. BXs are are designed for infiltration so they need to have higher intelligence and agility. Droidekas are about intimidation and quick, overwhelming force. You can capture that with a simpler, specific design. Guns, targeting systems, shields, armor, and only basic command-oriented intelligence.
  7. I think droidekas as vehicles make sense. They aren't programmed with the same robust AI programming that B1s have. They're devoid of personality, specifically programmed for rapid response/destroy protocols. This allows them to march into potentially overwhelming fire and put down fire of their own. No risk of robo-panic and retreat. They've also got enough mass, and are implacable enough that I can see squads fleeing out of their way to avoid being rolled over or stepped on. They're such weirdly sized transformer bots that it almost feels like a separate unit type should have been created for them. Something between a vehicle and a trooper. But vehicle works for me.
  8. No, I didn't miss the point. I didn't miss it any of the times you made it. If you've already decided (for perfectly legitimate reasons) not to use droidekas, and nobody is seriously disputing they're overcosted, then what do you hope to accomplish by continuing to point out they're overpriced and prefer other things? We can't change that, we can only try to figure out how best to use them in spite of their inefficiency. The tactics we're tossing around (the legal ones anyway) will still have value down the road if FFG does adjust their cost. On the other hand, comments that boil down to "I don't like them, they're too expensive" won't hold any value at all if their cost changes. You've made that point, so have others, and y'all are absolutely right. You can't get righter by repeating it. You can't further the discussion by repeating it. So what is the goal at this point? You can try to contribute/gain some useable tactical insight, or grouch about their cost more, your choice.
  9. Then do that. Sounds like an unbeatable strategy.
  10. Essentially "in melee" is synonymous with "in base contact" and means you cannot use ranged attacks. "Engaged" is a specifically trooper vs. trooper scenario where you must withdraw to leave base contact, may not be shot at while engaged, and happens to also be "in melee". I had the same confusion when getting excited about AI: shoot/move for 3 suppression. Not possible, as it turns out. So either reverse/shoot=2 suppression, or move thru/do something else for 1 suppression.
  11. Ooh good point, so triple supression is off the table. At any rate, the issue for the Jedi is the same: assuming a 1 activation kill on droidekas is risky, impossible with a dodge (for the most part). If you succeed, you kill a squad half your points and are in no-man's-land. If you fail, the squad can must walk through the Jedi, supressing him, leaving him exposed, and can still shoot/supress something else. It's just not an ideal use for a Jedi. Much better to use him to finish off even slightly wounded squads of droidekas because then it's nearly a sure thing. But that only becomes inefficient too. You're shooting through shields to wound something so a jedi who bypasses shields can finish it.
  12. That's the kind of tactic I don't employ often, but it's great as a combination with "cycling out" squads. Say you have one squad in the midfield that is getting beat up. Shields down and wounds piling up. That's a good time to recklessly expose a fresh unit. The opponent has to choose to keep focus on the wounded unit in heavy cover, or get more bang for their buck switching fire to the one standing lugnuts-in-the-wind. If they choose to try to eliminate an activatation, your spearthrust can hit harder. Situational, but could work.
  13. You're not wrong on your math, but the conclusion is: since 100 points per activation is the best exchange we have access to outside of core, this list, therefore, provides the most amount of activations we can currently field--10 (though I run it at 9, with 5 B1s with upgrades). That'll change once we get more units, but the way you phrased it implies the list has fewer activations than other CIS lists when it, in fact, has the most. That definitely is a risk, but since this list has more activations than most CIS lists, it can sandbag a little better. B1s and your chosen leader are unlikely to do too much on turn 1, so you'll usually have 6 activations you can do before you start moving droidekas. So wait as long as possible and then wheel into position with less fear of reprisal. Mathematically, it's not terribly likely. It assumes the lightsaber is going to hit with at least 6 hits every time they attack. White dice with S->B would block 2 and those 2 would be pierced away for 6 wounds, killing the unit. If the lightsaber wielder is consistently rolling perfect or near perfect (depending on the character) and I never roll above average, then they can count on killing a squad a turn. So it's basically a coin toss. The trick is if they fail, they don't put you in the usual position of "what does my squad do now?" Usually, after getting bloodied but not killed, you've got to decide whether you want to withdraw or keep the saber locked and make him waste another activation finishing the squad. Since Droidekas are vehicles, charging them is an all-or-nothing ploy. If the Jedi/sith doesn't kill them, the last one shoots point blank, and then walks through, planting 3 supression tokens and leaving him exposed. It's why I'll often shoot/dodge when under AI protocols. A lightsaber wielder won't kill them, even with assumed perfect rolls, and otherwise they just become so inefficient to kill with shooting. Getting them into heavy cover isn't hard, and if you dodge, that means a healthy unit can take around 10 hits before there's any drop off of firepower (4 shields, 2 cover, 1 dodge, 1/3 saves, 2 ablative wounds). Then if you think of regeration/dodge as +2 HP per turn, and heavy cover as +2 HP per unit shooting at them, you can see how they just drag the efficiency of the enemy army down. 3 squads are nigh impossible to kill. The supression starts mounting, robbing people of actions. They only manage to do 2 wounds and don't even take a model off the table, they waste their turn recovering, etc. So much of Legion is about the rhythm and timing of the game unfolding. Droidekas, especially 3 of them, do a lot to disrupt that timing. All that said, they still are over-costed. Pricing units like this is always tricky. Not only because they're vehicles, and the value of that is subject to fluctuate as the meta evolves, but just because units that have this either/or style are tough to price correctly. A unit that can be either fast and fragile with no damage output, or slow and tough with supressive fire is hard to play exactly right and therefore hard to price right. I take them because I love droidekas and there isn't much else to use. But I think I've learned pretty well how to try to wring every drop of value out of them. Sometimes I get 100 drops, sometimes I don't. But with 3 squads, it feels like I get more out of each one. Once BXs and STAPs come out though, my heart will be shelved until something changes.
  14. I like Droidekas despite them being overcosted. I find they work best if you max them out though. I disagree with this. With 3 squads of droidekas, 6 supression tokens a turn is nothing to sneeze at. B1s with E5c can pretty reliably put another down per squad, and both Grievous and Dooku have cards that let them throw extra supression around. You can pretty consistently put 10-12 supression tokens down per turn. I've won a few games just from putting down this much suppression turn in and turn out. Droidekas especially shine as flankers. There's less likely to be heavy return fire on the flanks, and the enemy commander is less likely to extend his courage value to the flanks. This means droidekas are good at turning back your opponent's flanking elements as they get suppressed or chased off while unsupported. From there, you can maneuver them into positions of overlapping fire covering the mid-board. Build your plan and the rest of your list around never needing to issue these guys orders. As mentioned, they don't synergize well. Instead, focus on getting orders onto everything else, so there's just the 3 droideka tokens in your bag. 1 squad doesn't really amount to much. 3 squads are enough to force your opponent to pay attention to them (instead of the stuff that matters).
  15. Seems pretty rad to me. There are 7 lightsaber blades in this list, so it's better, at least, than all the lists with 6 or fewer. Beyond that, I really prefer Grievous with his pistol. He just burns too bright and fast if he has nothing to do but charge in. But with 3 stud muffins, maybe that's not so much an issue. Still, with 32 points left, I'd be looking at the pistol and 20 points of what-have-you.
  16. The droidekas are the worst offenders, they give you twice as many as you need! They include both deployed and wheel mode for each model, and a token to indicate if you're in wheel mode?!? Ridiculous. I converted some of mine to be in various stages of transforming, so I can run up to the full 6 (or 8 if doing larger battles). I just had to photocopy the unit card, grab some acrylic shield tokens from my X-wing supplies, and borrow spare activation tokens from my friend... They try to waste plastic, but I won't let them.
  17. I have those, and they speed the game up! There's no good way to mark a circular base when you have to pick up a squadron out of a tight cluster to slide the activation bar or adjust damage, then replace it. Redirecting eyes is faster than bumping and fiddling with pieces more than necessary in a game of millimeters.
  18. Well, let us know how it goes, it has me very curious. As to reasonably expecting each mine to kill 2 models, that assumes you can reasonably expect every squad to fail their save. That's what's swingy about it. Against red defense, half your mines will do absolutely nothing. Half the time, 2 wounds. So while it's never possible to do exactly 1 wound per mine, against red defense, you'll average 1 wound per dioxis bomb that detonates. I think it's list that will depend a lot on your opponent's psychology. A puzzle to be solved if they can manage not to go on tilt.
  19. The area denial is nasty no doubt. But given the command cards, the BX droids will be mostly tokenless and subject to AI. Meaning to get all the mines out, those units will be moving/arming for at least 2 turns, maybe 3 turns. Hopefully in areas where they haven't been whittled down too much but also denies important paths. Say 6 bombs get dropped in total, how many realistically detonate? 4? So about 4 models killed (assuming red defense) using 6 activations over 2 turns. I really hope it is effective, because I'd like some variety with the builds. I'm just concerned that the threat isn't sufficient to actually deny the area it's intended to.
  20. I'm not an expert, but I'm not sold on that build for the BX Commando teams. That's an expensive way to equip a unit that is neither impressive at shooting nor combat. The dioxis mines might do damage, but they're very swingy. Your expected hits per mine is 1. So against red dice defense your mines will do 0 wounds half the time, and 2 wounds half the time. So assuming each BX squad detonates each mine 1 time, then 3 wounds dealt per game would be a reasonable expectation. Essentially 1 wound per mine. Their ceiling is 4 wounds, but need to benefit from extreme variance to see that potential. A mine is okay, but not a core strategy to build around. I have to believe either an offensive push sniper squad (either commando or strike), or a vibroswords commando squad will net you more than 1 additonal wound dealt per game. And for cheaper. So given the offensive disparity between Dioxis builds and sniper and/or sword builds, and the greater cost due to shields, I wonder what the role is. Your BX squads cost more than 3 times as much as a B1 squad, shoot only twice as hard, and despite red dice and shields, are easier to kill than 18 B1s (more due to activation drainage than mathematical defense which is pretty similar). TL;DR: Your special forces costs 282 points collectively. Instead: -2x BX-Series Commandos (68), Droid Sniper (30), Vibroswords (6) = 208 -2x B1s (36) = 72 This is 280 points. Better offense, better defense, more activations, and a 2 point bid.
  21. I appreciate the write up! Perhaps in future reports, if you're using colloquial names for lists, just a brief explanation of what it entails when you first use it? Or maybe just a link to the list if you know one. We always learn the most from lost battles, and I understand that you lost to a Republic army that features Rex and...? Were there particular units, upgrades, or tactical options that his list had over yours, or was it just his turn 0 advantage? I don't mean to be critical, I even googled it, but no luck. But I appreciate the discussion around turn 0 stuff. The more I play this game, the more I realize how much the game is won and lost then. So the more insight I get there, the better off I'll be!
  22. You're not correcting the math, you're just looking at it a different way. You're comparing the chances you would have to block an attack if you chose not to use the shield token to the guaranteed block of a shield. If someone hits you 4 times and you decide to use 2 shield tokens, then the absolute ceiling for their damage is lowered by 2, no matter what the dice do. It's definitely true that if you block 2 with shields, the math says you only lose 1 model with the 2 red dice you're rolling. Whereas, if you spent no shields and just rolled dice, you'd expect to lose 2. That's only a difference of 1 model after using 2 shields, and you conclude they're worth half a wound each. But your expected results are subject to variance which will change your perceived value. For instance, you might completely blank out on the roll and lose 4 models. In this instance, using 2 shields would've saved 2 models. It's also possible you roll 4 blocks and nobody dies, in which case spending shields would have done nothing. So sometimes they're worth 2 wounds, sometimes 1, sometimes 0. It depends on what the dice would have done if we rolled the full amount, which is an answer we will never get. It is mathematically true that spending 2 shields subtracts 2 from the maximum potential damage. It is also true that using those shield tokens does not guarantee 2 more models live that otherwise wouldn't have. Which is where you're getting hung up. Expected results are based on averages, shields are there because an individual die roll may not be average. So it's fair for you to conclude that shields are less valuable the better your defense dice are; my stance is 2 guaranteed blocks are better than counting the dice to roll average.
  23. Got another game in today. Long March with Intercept the Transmission. It ended up being a good game but Cad Bane's I'm In Control Now card sealed the victory for me on turn 5. The situation played out much like I had theorized above for it's potential. On turn 4 I played I'm Your Worst Enemy, moved to contest the objective closest to his DZ, wiped a phase II squad, took 3 damage but tanked a decent amount with Uncanny Luck, and piled up 4 suppression tokens. On turn 5, I played I'm In Control, but Rex went first and wounded Cad again. Cad activated and immobilized the last clone standing on my opponent's objective with 2 suppression. Then he moved to shoot Rex and hurt him pretty bad. Then he passed the last 2 suppression to Obi-wan and froze him in place. Obi-wan was going to either kill a B1 squad headed to go kill the immobilized last clone and steal my opponent's objective, or he was going to kill a squad of droidekas who were in position to aim/shoot Rex off the table. Instead he got to do neither. We called it there because the outcome was certain. My B1s were going to slip away from Obi-wan and claim the back objective. Rex was going to die. 2 more squads of B1s were going to kill either R2-D2 or his last non-immobilized squad of 2 clones who were going to have to leave cover to give him any chance of getting back an objective. So this game gave me 2 Cad Bane lessons: 1) Deploy "Kablamo!" away from intervening terrain. I had it behind a stack of crates and my opponent cleverly moved a unit so only 1 model was visible around the corner. 2 models would've died, by the rolls, but only 1 could. Even if it makes which token hides the bomb obvious, deploy the mine so a unit cannot limit its damage with terrain. 2) I'm In Control might be the single meanest thing CIS can do to a lightsaber character if you can pull it off. Getting into range isn't hard, you just have to have a Jedi within about range 4 of Cad on the turn you want to play it. Getting the 2 suppression tokens required to freeze them is the part you don't get to control. Don't think I didn't consider running Bane over with droidekas to give him suppression either!
  24. Studies show new players enjoy being shot from range 5. 😉 I don't think I'll take the poison bomb just because, as others have said, the sniper being only 2 points more and considerably more efficient just makes more sense. For that matter, I don't love sniper teams. Cheap activations sound cool, but are anti-synergy with the faction design. We desperately need more activations, but we'll continue to wait for a cheap commander to embrace the concept fully. A squad with Vibroswords and a sniper for 104 points seems pretty good. Maybe Offensive Push or Tenaticy to give them a little more efficiency. Basically a budget Grievous in squad form. Just wait for the Training card that allows you to use a dodge token for offensive damage. You know it's coming. AI won't seem like as much of an issue then.
  25. No, you can choose not to remove any and all. You only get up to 2 additional dice when defending though, so more than 2 doesn't help you unless you're ready to pop the 2 pip card. Minor difference, but worth pointing out. His gauntlets specifically allow him to move out of engagement when a unit is immobilized, even while they're exhausted. So he can either punch a unit and waltz out of combat, or pop the 2 pip, pass a suppression over, and waltz out of combat. No withdraw necessary. Slippery little fish!
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