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About Hombre

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    Valley of the Sun
  1. Don't bother responding. There were so many attacks in your post that you've proven that you're not worth talking to. Playing with adults? Please. Mutual respect? That's what I've been advocating the entire time, yet you seem to think that that's achieved by belittle people that don't agree with you.
  2. Maybe your idea of roleplaying is to just make stuff up even when it doesn't make any sense. Yes, it's escapism, but your roles also have to be believable. In no way have you come up with any alternative that's even remotely believable. Instead, you insist that I'm trying to push my way or the highway. All I'm saying is to stop and think about the situation and realize what would actually happen. I'm still waiting for someone to offer an alternative, let alone offering one that has some chance of actually being equitable and working. After re-reading your responses, you really have no idea what you're talking. Sorry to have to be explicit, but considering your derogatory responses there's really nothing else to say. You guys are advocating screwing over your own players and characters and saying that's it's good role-playing. You've mis-characterized most of what I've said, and several times come out and said you don't understand what I'm saying. Good luck with your gaming. I thought the anecdotes would just be kind of humorous and lighten the mood since there seems to be a belief that I've had nothing but bad experiences when nothing could be further. I still have no idea how you got the "so the lightsaber prevailed?" line.
  3. While true, "Scout" already implies a vessel that operates way out into the unknown...you know...scouting... Maybe it would be more appropriate to use Scout for local stuff and Explorer in place of Long-range Scout.
  4. Let me try to clarify a little bit. When I said the difference between a personal and commercial license is the ability to charge, I'm talking about the real world. In a gaming context I can easily imagine it being the same. I'm right there with you in wanting the pilot to be a part of the team, but you have to be realistic about it. If he's the only one that's paying for gas, port fees, registration, maintenance (and even upgrades) then he's going to be unhappy with not having money to spend on fun like everyone else. Even if he's not, the party is going to end up getting stranded because he won't always have enough/make enough to cover upkeep. Really, imagine the conversations. Heck, have your players sit down and do it. Introduce a brand new pilot. Unless he's completely shirking his responsibility, that is, not even remotely playing in character (and that is bad role-playing), that character is going to be just like Han in ANH: Here's my rate. If things go well and he stays, upkeep has to be dealt with and the only fair way to do it is for everyone to contribute equally. It's not even hard to do it. Now, if you, as a GM, don't want to worry about finances, that's different. It's like playing D&D and no one ever buys food. Some groups just don't track the piddly stuff and I'm cool with that. But the questions was posed: Who pays for it? So it's important to some people. For those people, there's only one way to do it. It's not about keeping a player at the table, but keeping the character in the group. The characters have to have motivation. Screwing each other over, whether it's stiffing on the tab or conspiring to steal a ship, might be fun for the players, but it absolutely destroys the characters working together. I'll try to keep these relatively short. I was playing an old school Ranger in AD&D with a new group. This group was a bunch of power gamers. Tons of high power spells and magic items. Kill one monster after another. Not particularly interesting. I never got to participate in any fighting because they were such a well-oiled machine that the big beastie was always dead before it was my turn. Well, they messed up and I had a chance. I had a bead on a dragon, arrow sighted, called shot to the eyeball. I rolled two natural 20s in a row (the DM required a second one) for the hit, then rolled max damage (complete with absurd bonuses that this group had given me because they felt I was under-powered). Killed the dragon and they were ticked. Shortly after we broke for dinner. The guy who invited me took me aside to let me know that the group felt that I was a power gamer and they didn't want me playing any more. I rolled a grand total of three dice in five hours. I literally laughed out loud and said okay and left. With another group I was playing a WEG Jedi in ANH era. I asked if it was okay and the GM said sure, no problem. First time I went to use my lightsaber he informed me that it had been stolen. Apparently it happened the day before. Apparently I never noticed being bumped into in a non-busy place. I couldn't find supplies to build a new one even if I had known how (apparently I had forgotten how I did it the first time). The group wouldn't help me find it, either immediately or after the mission. So my character went off on his own to find it, which resulted in him leaving the party. Same group, I had a WEG tramp freighter captain. Same sort of stuff we've been talking about here. I wasn't saying they had to pay me. I was saying they had to help with costs. They wouldn't and we got stranded on Nal Hutta. That is, I got stranded on Nal Hutta. I was back with the ship trying to get it working and then out of impound while they were off on a mission, and they went off-world. I took what was supposed to be a quick side mission for a little cash and a part and ended up never seeing the party again. A short while later I left the group. "The party gets a ship" is just a bad rule if that's all there is. Someone has to own it (and it really shouldn't be a 120K ship, it should be 40K used, tops). If it's a benefactor/creditor of some sort that's cool, but it still comes down to one person owning it. I don't know about you guys, but I would never let a player start with a ship free and clear. Dante, I don't know your gaming experiences, but here's some of mine. Games in high tech environments frequently start off with some players having expensive, high tech gear, including starships. It's generally understood that the character is not just now striking out on his own. Luke may have been 1st Level, but Han sure as heck was not. There's nothing ridiculous about it, and is really just an opportunity for adventure. Looks like you have a nice ship. Too bad you couldn't outrun that customs corvette and had to dump your cargo before they boarded you. Looks like the Hutts have put a bounty on you. Again. Or maybe you did lose the pink slip in a game of sabaac, but you decided to skedaddle before paying up, and now he's after you. There's lots to on out there. That said, if "the party gets the ship" then "the party pays the upkeep." I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
  5. On a personal note, maybe you could quote in context? Because using snippets makes us both look bad. You presented those snippets as me, out of character, saying that, when in point of fact, that would be in character, for any pilot, and that's how I presented it. Again, I've worked as a commercial operator.
  6. With all due respect, no it doesn't. The rest of the party knows that they can mess with the ship-owning player and he'll have to buckle to keep the group together. I would and I have left groups over this. There is no debate. You pay my fees or I'm leaving. There are two outcomes here. Or the pilot is the leader of the group, in which case it's still not up for debate Sorry to just quote some snippets but... Seriously, come on dude. Isn't it a bit over the top with the whole "my way is the right way and you are wrong to disagree"-attitude? When I read posts like yours, filled with horrible past experiences, severe and strict rules that Ensure your presence at the table and advocating charging game money to your team mates then I feel that "your way" would never be necessary in "our game" because I play my games with mutually respectful adults that want the others to enjoy themselves. I've had exactly three bad gaming experiences in almost 30 years of gaming, so I'm pretty comfortable. Trying to narrow it down to me claiming "my way or the high way" is a gross mis-characterization. I provided reasons, you attacked me. You can keep that. It's not about "ensuring my presence at the table". There are people here advocating how to take advantage of their team mates, but apparently me pointing this out makes me a bad guy? I don't think so. As a player, yeah, I'd be pretty ticked if my teammates conspired to steal my ship. As a character, there would be consequences. What kind depends on my character and what the circumstances were. Regardless, it would result in the characters not working together any more. A co-worker stealing your car doesn't mean you guys go grab a beer. There's give and take at the table, things you can do and things that you can't. A lot of times stuff that we see and people refer to as "good role-playing" really isn't. Staying in character, those incidents result in the party breaking up. Hey, sometimes it happens, sometimes you have to roll a new character. Sometimes it's a case of the people thinking they can do it because it's a game, though in reality they would never do something like that. It's interesting that you accuse me of charging PCs, but feel it's perfectly okay for them to do the same. Maybe you could try justifying your reasoning? You think it was okay for the group to tell the captain that he owns the ship, he pays the port fees, even though they're in port because *they* wanted to be there, but it's not okay for him to then charge for room and board? They set the arrangement, not him. Like I said, if he's part of the group, it should be a non-issue. If he's not part of the group, then don't be surprised when you get the bill. This is *the* difference between having a personal license and a commercial license. On a personal license, you can charge everyone their pro-rated share and nothing more. On a commercial license, you charge whatever you can get. Step back and look at this from the characters' points of view. A ship captain has bills, plain and simple. The first time he meets the party, he's going to quote a price that covers those operating costs and also includes profit for him. This is what you expect. Realistically he's leaving when the job is done, especially if he's getting shot at. If things transpire where everyone wants him to stay, and he wants to as well, those bills still have to be paid. Making him pay fees and maintenance from his own coffers results in the party being stranded. Again, realistically, he'd just leave. It's consistent with everyone else's expectations. When someone quotes you for a service you know they have operating costs and you know they're included. It's not like you're buddy giving you a ride to work. (which, incidentally, frequently involves gas money when it becomes recurring) You know Han was being paid. You see him being paid. ANH and ESB it's not even up for debate. ROTJ it's debatable. He still wasn't a True Believer. After he becomes a General in the NR he's definitely getting paid, they just stopped talking about it. Unless we believe that military commanders and politicians suddenly stopped getting paid? So, sure, let the players sit down and talk it out, but anything different from some form of the group paying upkeep and fees is really just the players gaming the other player. The *players* might do that, but the *characters* would not.
  7. With all due respect, no it doesn't. Quite the opposite. This is the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. The rest of the party knows that they can mess with the ship-owning player and he'll have to buckle to keep the group together. I would and I have left groups over this. (It's logical for the character to leave, and I'm not rolling up another character, especially when we need a freighter captain, only to have the same thing happen again) As someone who's actually worked as a commercial operator, let me put it this way: There is no debate. You pay my fees or I'm leaving (actually, I never show up to begin with). Try arguing with a cabbie or moving company some time. Especially try doing it after the fact. I've seen people arrested for it (don't argue with cabbies in the Middle East). Think it through. The character who owns the ship is either a member of the group or he is not. If he is, you have to pay upkeep on the ship, even though he owns it. You all get the benefits of it being there and it is far and away the most expensive asset the group has. Everyone else gets to spend credits on new toys and increasing their station in life, but the pilot is mired in maintenance, docking and customs fees? I don't think so. Refusing to pay upkeep sends a strong message that the pilot is not part of the group. There are two outcomes here: Expect to get a bill for room & board, transport fees, etc. Or, and this is what would actually happen, a visit from the local port authority for failure to pay a fare, followed by the pilot leaving, and probably taking your stuff to recoup his losses. Seriously, in a galaxy-spanning environment where it's so easy to make money and the guy has his own transportation, he's not going to stay with a group of aliens without a contrived excuse, get shot at, and get stuck with the bills. Would you? When you say yes, you're thinking as a player trying to keep the gang together, not as a character with bills to pay. What do you think would happen if the pilot was an NPC you had to keep on retainer? You don't think his fee includes all those costs? Or the pilot is the leader of the group, in which case it's still not up for debate, because he can always find the crew he needs for a given job and he sets what everyone's share is. I generally wouldn't recommend watching reality TV, but watch Deadliest Catch. And as for the player that wants to take advantage of the player whose character has a gambling addiction... Discourage him from doing that. To quote Han, Yeah, but who's going to fly it? If you want to play up his gambling addiction and take his ship, you have an NPC do it, then you adventure to get it back. When you let a PC do it those PCs can't ever work together again. You're not friends with your bookie or the guy you just lost your house to or your ride to. Now, if the guys grew up together or have known each other for years, and it's become a running gag that they keep losing the ship back and forth to each other, sure. Great opportunities for role-playing should not result in PCs drawing down on each other, and that's exactly what would happen in the SW universe, especially out on the Rim.
  8. Alright, basic deck plan/layout ready. A few notes... I haven't put in any hatches yet, but it should be reasonably obvious where most of them go. Engineering is considered to be locked out except for crew. Galley/lounge/dining pretty much share a common area (but it's 30' x 18'). There's three bulkheads for couches/tables/refrigerator/stove to abut. The captain has his own good-sized stateroom, complete with refresher. 1st Mate/co-pilot gets his own room, but no refresher. Everyone else shares, two to a room (Murphy beds). The main refresher has two full sets of facilities. There's seating for four in the cockpit, eight in the escape pod. The corridors are flat walled/ceiling/floor, not a torus like the the YT-1300. They may look kind of cramped, but they're four feet across. Repulsors, shield generators, HVAC, pumps, etc. are in crawl spaces above/below the main deck. The purpose of a light freighter is to hall freight. After the engines, as much space as possible is devoted to that purpose. So, no, it's not luxurious. That said, there's 1300 ft^2 of living space (rooms, refreshers, lounge/galley), so it's not that bad. As I said, the back story for this is the YT last hurrah before the VCX-350 takes over, which obviously is much more spacious and holds more freight.
  9. I've seen most of those. I like their styling. Some of those designs really aren't feasible, though. That black/grey YT-2400 doesn't have any engines, for example. I'm not going to go through and measure dimensions on every one. For my personal project I'm aiming more towards "realism", which may or may not be a goal for others in needing deck plans for role-playing. While not official, this is what I'm using for guidelines: http://web.archive.org/web/20010417081026/http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/deckplan/deckplan.htm It matches my personal experiences from 5 years stationed on a warship. I should have the basic deck plan done soon.
  10. Thanks. Hope to have the basic deck plan for the 2700 done today... if I could stop spending time on the forums... Oh, and the 2700 is unofficially the Aluminum Vulcan.
  11. The ship belongs to either the pilot, or to whomever the pilot is indebted to. The rest of the PCs are not passengers, or they would have simply been dropped off at the next stop and expected to pay for the ride. They're not necessarily crew, though that's probably where they should be headed. Crew payment is done as Shares, not percentages. What Share a PC/NPC is worth is negotiated, possibly on a job-by-job basis (unless/until they formally become crewmembers, which might be worth a bonus as further incentive). Seniority tends to affect how many Shares someone gets (e.g., a rookie might start with only half a Share, and still be expected to do a ton of work).Shares can be awarded (by the pilot, or by the controller interest/real person owning the ship) spur of the moment as further incentive. Shares are paid out on completion of each job. UHF and Ghostofman really hit on it. The Ship takes priority over Shares and is Maintained out of Net. Shares, including the Ship's, are paid out of Net. The Ship spends its Shares on Upgrades. Obviously this can lead to Conflict, and this is A Good Thing. Especially when you consider who actually pays out the Shares. If the PCs are paid by the Controlling Authority then that's that. If the Third Party pays the PCs directly after the job, and the pilot then divvies up Shares, then there's opportunity to stiff not only the PCs (since the Ship has to be Maintained/Repaired), but the Controlling Interest. And what happens when you Dump Cargo? Good times all around, to be sure.
  12. Both ships are done in SWDA M20 scale, or 20 pixels per meter. Both are highly derivative. The first is the larger one, the YT-2700. And that's a sensor pod protruding on the left. Both will undergo a few minor revisions as I work on the deck plans. YT-2100:
  13. A couple of YT derivatives. The larger one is YT-1300 size, but a YT-2400 pontoon/command module layout. The smaller one is about 70% that size, based on YT-1760 hull design but also with YT-2400 pontoon. I wrote them up as the YT Design Group's last ditch effort in a losing battle to the VCX (specifically VCX-350) Design Group.
  14. Finished the top view. Working on the rest of the orthos as well as the deck plan. Very basic deck plan is almost finished. I won't ever get as polished as the superwhammadine stuff that the pros put out, but I hope to achieve SWDA quality (which itself is very nice quality).
  15. Anyone use custom starships for players? I mean small stuff, like light freighters. The sort of stuff that the PCs would reasonably have access to. And I don't mean modifying a YT-1300, but creating a new ship class. When I've done this in the past, it's been with the understanding that the design is not unique, but is mass-market and available to all. I've been drawing pictures and looking for an excuse to share. I'm just hesitant to post pics in places they wouldn't be appreciated.
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