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thopol

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About thopol

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  1. I think you're right across the board Grimwalker. I won't argue any of your points. I guess my frustration is that there are the two problems, shutdown and noncommunication. I understand that it isn't their policy to interact with the community, but I think that's a bad policy for everyone. I understand that they need to be responsible custodians of the netrunner IP, but I think they could have negotiated or shut down the site without compromising the IP or scaring someone with lawyerspeak. You definitely get my viewpoint here. The biggest issue though is that it's two problems. If they didn't shut down the site, and didn't communicate, nobody would have a problem except FFG (and they could still try to handle the problems privately). If they shut down the site and talked about it, I wouldn't have a problem. I just wish they had sent something like I PMed to you. It's well within their rights to shut down infringement and they don't have to explain anything to their fans if they don't want to, but I think they could have just done a little to smooth over the situation. Call it naive, but I guess what it comes down to is that I don't want to be shown that a company that I go to for joy in our fairly niche hobby has that cold cutthroat market mentality. I'm not disappointed that they have that attitude, but I'm disappointed that they reminded me that when it comes down to it, for them it's about business not play.
  2. I think that it's ridiculous that a site that is clearly working for the best interests of FFG and its community was closed down. Sure, it had problems where IP is concerned, but FFG could have approached it in a more productive fashion. A C&D before a layman-intelligible email is a strategy of intimidation, not of communication; destructive, not productive. I think it's ridiculous that FFG saw the backlash and didn't feel the need to respond to their customers. Though you say they did respond. A link to wherever they said that about the acceptable use policy would be much appreciated. I think I understand your perspective, and I too am maddened seeing opinions based on hearsay and hunches. That said, if you don't think that a) the netrunnerdb shutdown, and b) the non-communicative nature of the company, are not negative things, then you and I (and virtually everyone else posting in this thread) are at an impasse and there's no reason to continue discussing it. If you think that it was a reasonable action, but still a negative one, then we are in agreement. I think you have contributed to the discussion in a valuable way, with reasoned and informed responses. There is no reason not to take the same attitude and try to inform people of the real problems and possible solutions that there may be. If your understandable frustration leaves you terse and negative, I feel your pain and recommend you post when you are in better condition for your own sake. EDIT: I recognize that my opinions are also based on hearsay and hunches. Nobody knows what's going on. I guess I just meant that the rumors get sensational and it's better to form your opinions on guesses that are better grounded than those.
  3. They should probably be merged. If the idea is that there will be discussion, it doesn't make sense to have separate threads for the opposing viewpoints. To me it all seems moot. Those who have changed their opinion of FFG have changed it by now. It's up to the corp now whether or not they want to do something about it. I think it possible to respond positively (tell me what you think of my example Grim, or tell me if you want to see it other-skeptic), and if they choose not to do it, that's their choice. I think it would be better to react differently, but I don't think at this point that my opinion will change theirs. The amount of people who have decided to quit buying new products is totally insignificant. If you want to change things, a petition will not do it. If a real boycott could be affected, that might do something, but people would need to work hard to get it to work and tempers have cooled enough to make it even more challenging. If you still want to rage about this, think about it productively (spread the word to other sites, to local players, etc., or try to start an actual boycott campaign or something). Making angry and sometimes logically twisted posts in this thread or its counterpart will do nobody any good. Everyone posting here has made their decision by now.
  4. Relax Mysticpickle. Don't let the internet make you angry. I still think FFG could and should write a response. I accept that things are how they are, but they ought to save face. It's not like when people forget this incident they will revise their impression of the company as well. Time will heal the wound but not the injured party's opinion of the one who inflicted it. Is this a company that wants to look like a rigid corporation just milking their money cows or do they think that gaming is a two way street and they need to work with the players? Do they not care about their appearance and reputation?
  5. Grimwalker, I wrote up a draft of something that I think would be an acceptable response given what you (and I agree) think their point of view is on this. I don't think I should post it here. If you are interested in reading it, let me know and we can exchange our efforts. I don't think there was any practical point in writing it. Its only purpose would be rhetorical and it's not appropriate to write something with the company's voice and make it public, so that purpose would be confined to the two of us. You phrased it as an exercise to begin with so I'm sure you understand me. I think you have a good handle on FFG's perspective here and I appreciate your helping to form my opinions through clear discussion. EDIT: And to those who think FFG is being capricious, if your demand is that FFG allow NRDB to continue as it was before and you will take no compromise, why would expect them to respond to you at all? I'll reiterate, I'm angry about the closure as well, and I'm angry that they haven't talked about it. That doesn't mean that I have the right to be childish about it.
  6. Grimwalker, I think you probably got it spot on with your comment that any clear community guidelines could cause problems with FFG's partners and that's what's keeping them quiet. That said, when you have an outcry in your fiercely loyal community, ignoring it outright seems like a bad business practice. I'm entirely confident that FFG could comment on the shutdown in such a way as to soothe the frustration of many people without alienating their partners. I've found the community to be quite reasonable and mature (it may not seem that way, but this thread is going to be the vocal minority and I still think the level of discourse is comparatively high), so I think people will be understanding if FFG makes a little effort. I mean, so much of what is flying around is conjecture. We know very little about the situation at all. How backwards would things have to be so that they couldn't communicate at all, clear up rumors, make a vague statement about why, without jeopardizing their licenses. Assuming they can't seems awfully cynical. PS: I know that you weren't saying they can't communicate, just talking about why they are probably unwilling to. I think you are totally right about their motives, I'm just saying there is probably a way they can soothe the community and still dodge any bullets.
  7. I only raise the telling us why they can't tell us why question because they are unwilling to communicate and virtually anything from them would fix that problem. If they say "we can't talk about A because of B", that is still communication and it shows that, whether or not their hands are tied, they have some respect for their players in that we're demanding information and they respond. As it is now, they don't seem to care at all about our demands for transparency and assume the hubbub will blow over. I for one don't like being treated like that. I agree that the copyright and licensing points that you raise are probably behind this, but if that's the case, their treatment of community sites seems inconsistent. What I'd like is something that one can reference when considering a netrunner fan-endeavor and see whether it will be acceptable to FFG or not. Their interests, however reasonable they are, shouldn't preclude some such communication.
  8. If they can't tell us why they they went about crushing a beloved community site, they should at least be able to tell us why they can't tell us why. I would accept that. I understand that we are dealing with both copyright and licensing here, so there could be any number of reasons why they felt the need to do this. If they can't tell us why, because of how delicate those features of the property could be, at least tell us why they can't tell us. I'm at the point now where I accept that NRDB has been closed and I just want FFG to preserve their community by talking about the closure. I don't mind how abstracted from this incident they address it at, but I want them to address it. It's frankly ludicrous that nobody from FFG has made any public statement about such a controversial action.
  9. Just to remind you, not communicating their objections to NRDB doesn't only hurt that site. If there are ambiguities in what differentiates a site they allow and a site they will close, people will be more reluctant to make new sites. The whole community suffers.
  10. This is the main issue. Closing a beloved community site is second to the fact that they did it without justifying their actions with the community. Do they feel that they don't need to? People are angry about this and all they need to hear is why it happened. If FFG think they can justify their actions, they should do so. If they don't think they can justify their actions to the community, perhaps they shouldn't have taken them. If they thought their actions could be accepted by the community, why haven't they said anything? I think they know they did something infuriating and they can only hope that their customers will forget that it happened.. FFG: You are a week late on explaining things. It's damning that you haven't said anything on the issue yet. It will look worse the longer you wait. If you think it will blow over, I guarantee you that there are those who will ensure that it will not.
  11. It's been a week with no word from FFG about this debacle. I for one will post in this thread every day or two until they give us some explanation and I hope others will do the same. I'm sure they think that it will just blow over and they will get away with this outrage without a scratch. Until they give me a reason not to, I will stay angry and stay vocal and I encourage others to do the same. I honestly think capitalism, broadly, does not preclude the existence of responsible and accountable companies. Before this ****show, I would have considered FFG to be among the ranks of such. I understand what you're getting at, but if you think all big companies become bad and recommend everyone find a small company to support, doesn't that mean you're making the latter company into the former? I think it's better to hold the first company accountable, to be angry loud and vicious, than to abandon ship and enable another company to become the same monster.
  12. You said it Barber. Every day that passes without a word from them brings me closer from my initially moderate stance to the hardliners who are condemning the company as one of the horrible bottom-line-and-screw-any-other-considerations things we are all so familiar with. To put it another way, I'm starting to wonder if they splashed for closed accounts or if it's just in-faction (not that he was making any creds to begin with).
  13. Well I'm on board now. I won't say that I won't get any FFG products ever again, and I'm definitely not going to quit playing, but I'm going to give the datapacks and forcepacks a rest until we have some communication from the company on what is and is not allowed. The lack thereof is a very damaging thing. Anyway, there are games that I haven't bought because of my devotion to ANR and I might just get to play them now. FFG makes some great games, but it's the community that took it to the next level. If FFG is going to go laying waste to third party endeavors that benefit everyone, there's no reason to go on supporting them (the company I mean. I'll still be visiting the sites and listening to the podcasts etc.). What we need is transparency when it comes to the relationship between FFG and the community. I could respect their decisions if they felt that they needed to make a case in their defense. If they remedy this enormous problem with the laughably easy solution of just communicating, I will go on buying their products. (That players union idea I had seems like a pippin.) EDIT: To the boycotters. If you want to make your boycott more punchy, also swear off other products in the licenses FFG has. If you think they'll be afraid you'll stop buying, make them afraid that they won't be pulling in enough to please their partners.
  14. At least we deserve to know why this happened. If people are going around making sites to build up the game, they should avoid the pitfalls that make FFG shut them down. This undermines the community so much by discouraging people from being engaged and creative. There has been zero attempt at damage control. What the hell.
  15. I don't think FFG should use NRDB either. The issue is that they should come to an understanding that allows NRDB to continue to function to the greatest degree that respects the needs of FFG. While it has been suggested that FFG should buy it, that sets a bad precedent for both sides. From the FFG side it's the community demanding that in order to protect their rights FFG should buy out community endeavors. This is an untenable request for FFG and it undermines the community's credibility in requesting behavior from FFG. From the community side it's that FFG should be paying money to monopolize independently-created resources and community sites. I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing for FFG to buy out NRDB necessarily, but people saying that that's the easy or good solution are being a bit shortsighted. I'm just going to throw this out there. I'm open to criticism. It's not well thought out, but: Could we have a players union? If things like this come up again in the future, could we utilize collective bargaining? This whole situation has been blown out of proportion by having many individuals getting angry individually and reacting individually. A players union could moderate negative community reactions and also allow the community to moderate FFG to a degree. This is a radical idea and I anticipate that there are a lot of negatives associated with it that I'm not thinking of, so let me hear what you think about it. EDIT: (A players union could perhaps negotiate with FFG about organized play too. Again, the whole notion may not be possible and/or positive. It's an idea.)
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