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FrozenSolid

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  1. One of Azathoth's research encounter cards has a worse mechanic than the Mythos. The Mythos just requires a clue (or is it two?) among all the players in the game, which is still a badly designed mechanic, but at least it is somewhat preventable. The research encounter card is literally fail an observation roll: lose a mystery. You can't combat that. No amount of clues or rerolls can prevent it from happening. Bad luck can simply wipe away an hour of work. That goes from being "bad design" to being completely and utterly game breaking bad design.
  2. You can have a grimdark feel without making players repeat an hour of work that they've already done. That is the point. You can make the players feel insignificant and make the game feel hard in far more interesting and fun ways. FFG does this already with a dozen other mechanics in the game. Losing a solved mystery is NOT interesting. It is NOT good game design. It is NOT fun. If you read the whole post we've been over this a dozen times. You are wrong. As for removing those cards from the game, in the base game as it was when this topic was made (8 months ago by the way). There were not enough research cards per Elder God to simply remove 3 full encounters from the game. It also doesn't fix the problem, because without being told that this is a stupid and terribly designed mechanic that is widely considered to be the complete opposite of fun they will keep making cards with that mechanic. The post was made with the hopes that future expansions would not have more of those awful mystery-losing cards.
  3. I didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I posted my own, and argued why my opinion was valid. That's it. No where did I ask for someone else's opinion. I posted to state my own problems with the game in hopes that Fantasy Flight and their designers would listen and fix them in future expansions. So yes, I can state my opinion, as well as argue why different opinions are wrong or misinformed, as well as tell you to "shut up" (which I didn't, by the way, I just said you were wrong. Big difference.) It's a 3-4 hour game. Making a 3-4 hour game take 4-5 hours instead, is stupid. Especially when you put aside 3-4 hours to play only to have the game needlessly lengthened beyond what you wanted. On top of that, 3-4 hours is a long game, and I was honestly hoping that since Arkham was 3-4 hours, that we'd see Eldritch be half that. I don't often have 3-4 hours to set aside to play a board game, so a 3-4 hour game does not get played as often as one that's 1-2. I also never argued that it wasn't doable. I argued that it wasn't FUN. It is a stupid, and terribly designed mechanic. That's it. And stop spamming the thread. One reply. Use the **** multi-quote option, or wait to reply until you've read the entire thread.
  4. Not when that player has no clue tokens and is trying to get their first one after having already spent them to finish a mystery. "Avoiding" it by requiring you to have an item that you may not have even had a chance to acquire yet is not a valid solution. Especially in our first game and you have no idea that "saving" a single clue to keep you from losing an hour of work is even something that'd be necessary. It's a terrible mechanic. Stop making excuses for it.
  5. There are very few times that you will be delayed DURING your action phase. Usually it'll happen during encounters or the Mythos phase. In the case of being delayed during the action phase, regardless of what action it is, you just end your actions.
  6. Actually we didn't play that wrong. Occult Research: "At the end of the Mythos Phase, if there are clues on this card equal to the number of players, solve this mystery" The True Name: "place a number of Eldritch tokens equal to half the number of players ... spend 2 clues to place that Eldritch token on this card." Seed of the Daemon Sultan: "spend 2 clues to place 1 Eldritch token on this card ... if there are Eldritch tokens on this card equal to half the number of players solve this mystery" Only one mystery is clues equal to the number of players, and that one is timed to which omen is on the omen track. All of the others require 2 times half the number of players rounded up. In a 5 player game which we were playing, this meant we needed 6 clues for every mystery we wanted to accomplish, except for the last Omen of Devastation.
  7. That's better than the card we got. Our's was a failed observation check that caused us to lose a mystery. How you "prevent" it from happening doesn't fix the problem. The problem is the fact that losing progress in a game is the complete opposite of fun. The entire concept of losing a solved mystery is a terrible one.
  8. Having played the game 3 more times since my post, I find that the first flaw isn't nearly as serious as it seemed in our first game. We apparently screwed up the rule that you discard clues rather than putting them back into the clue bag. (I'm using a felt bag for clues, as well as separate bag for the monster cup. It works wonderfully) The effect this had on our first game meant that when we did a city clue, that clue went back into the bag, meaning that we always had more cities in the bag than anything else. Instead of pulling a city out, and having a better chance of getting varying locations. We have yet to have a duplicate encounter in a game since we started playing "properly." While it's still possible it's much less likely and the game feels far more balanced now. That being said, there still needs to be more research encounters for each elder god just not as seriously as originally thought, and the "lost mystery" mechanics are still the worst thing in the game and desperately need fixed or reworked. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it's very easy to make the current mystery "harder" in some cases. Can you explain why do you think that EH is better? I have seen you post allso in elsewhere, so I repect your opinions to a some degree :-) You often like a good challenge, so if EH is more diffiult it is easy to see why do you like it, but what are other reasons? This game is in my radar and am just wainting a reason or two more to purhase it... Is it some king of sicness... is it? Despite it's flaws, there are a few specific reasons that make it objectively better than Arkham Horror: 1) The casting and conditions double sided cards mechanic is brilliant. Easily the best feature of the game. 2) The end game when the Elder God wakes up is far superior and more interesting than in Arkham. With the exception of Azathoth, the god appears on the board and gives you a new mystery to solve in addition to the other 3. 3) The scale of the game makes travel more interesting. In Arkham a player could easily travel from one side of the board to the other in one turn. Distance didn't mean so much unless you were a character with really bad speed, in which case you felt gimped because you could barely get anywhere. Eldritch balances all the players' movement capabilities, and it really encourages players to spread out and focus on their own portions of the board. You have to be prepared for things to show up anywhere on the board. 4) Encounters often have multiple rolls you have to make. This means it's not usually a pass/fail like it was in Arkham. The more important cards tend to have pass/pass to get an awesome encounter, pass/fail to get a mediocre or non-harmful encounter, and fail/fail to get a bad encounter. This both makes the dice less likely to just screw you over, as well as makes their results more interesting. 5) Players dying is far more interesting. In Arkham and Elder Sign, you just roll a new character. In Eldritch, your character stays on the board, and you can encounter them with other characters. If your character went insane, you stumble upon that character in their insane state of mind. Each character has two very unique effects, one for going insane and one for dying. 6) In Arkham, you tend to b-line for the end of the game, and the goal is always the same. Seal 6 gates or close all gates and have X gate trophies. You don't have to do much damage control unless a rumor comes out or you're getting close to the monster limit. Even then, dealing with monsters and closing gates is something that happens organically while you're focusing on your goal. They're just obstacles in the way. In Eldritch, your goal has nothing to do with the Monsters and gates. You're forced to make a decision as to whether to close gates or fight monsters, to focus on your mystery, or to focus on the expedition. All 3 options give you a LOT of important decisions to be making. If you have too many gates out, the doom track starts to plummet quickly. It has a very similar feel to Flash Point, in that as long as you have the board under control you can focus on the mystery, but the second you lose control of the board the game starts taking a quick turn for the worst. 7) Combat is VASTLY improved and streamlined. Going back to play Arkham this weekend really made how good the combat is in Eldritch stand out. Not only does combat happen during the encounter phase which makes far more sense than during movement, but if you're a character who shouldn't be doing combat you can still pass by monsters and have things to do without feeling like you're locked in your current location. Plus the fact that damage dealt to monsters sticks around for your next round means that failing combat doesn't always feel like you just wasted your turn doing nothing and getting nowhere.
  9. Your thematic complaints seem misguided, and in that regard comparing the game to Arkham isn't a fair comparison because the theme of each game is different, despite being very similar. You have to realize that the scale is different. In Arkham, you have a bunch of locations that are very close to one another. When it comes to Eldritch Horror, each time you're encountering something in a city, you're only getting a glimpse of the things going on in that city. Each time you encounter a gate in a city, you're not encountering the same gate. The gate token is just a sign that gates are opening in that city and a clue token is a sign that things are going on you should investigate. The act of passing a gate encounter stops new gates from opening in that city temporarily. The same is true for clue tokens. You know a clue is in a city of the game, so each time you "encounter" that clue in the research deck, you're following tips until you find the clue you're looking for. When you acquire the clue, you've finally found the specific clue you needed in that city. Each individual encounter in the city is a unique instance, rather than in Arkham where each location is encountering that same exact location and/or gate.
  10. Most games don't lose progress in the way that Eldrtich does though. It's more than just the degree in which you've lost, though that has a lot to do with it. It's the fact that not only is hard earned progress being stolen, but there is no way to prepare for it. The wrong person with a low observation drawing that card causes it to happen. Even with a high observation, just one bad roll causes you to lose it. Even having 5 clues sitting in your stock pile to reroll can still cause you to lose it if you're just not lucky. It's not something you can see coming and predict. To try and put it into perspective, picture a game of Settlers of Catan. The end goal of the game is to get 10 victory points. One very common way to win the game is by having longest road and/or largest army. Part way through the game, your opponent makes a road longer than your's. Effectively, you've lost 1/5th of your progress towards completion of the game, but the fact of the matter is that just building 2 more roads, or playing 2 more armies, puts you back to the same progress you were at before. Losing one of those cards isn't a big deal, because it's trivial in the scheme of the game to get them back. You still have a road that's 7 long. Your friend just has one that's 8. It's not like you have to rebuild a road from 0 back up to 7. Your victory was delayed, not reset to the beginning. Effectively you've "lost 1/5th of your progress in the game" but in reality it's trivial to regain those 2 points by building a slightly longer road. Also, the player taking your points was a reward to that player for making a long road, not a penalty slapped on you with no way of keeping it from happening. You saw it coming when that player was obviously making a road nearly as long as your's. You could have prevented it by building your road one more longer before your opponent did. Using Descent as an example, every time you kill a monster, it's going to respawn at the start of the stage. Effectively a turn after you've killed something you "lost your progress" because it's back. However, the fact that the monster respawned doesn't affect the progress of the game. The fact that it's no longer blocking your way, and you'll have a few turns to continue towards your objective means that you've still made progress. The monster respawning is just a setback and a bit of added difficulty. Arkham has events that cause you to "lose progress" as well. We've had a few games where a player returns through a gate, closes it, and during the Mythos phase the gate reopens sucking that player through again. The main goal of AH is to close and seal gates. You've just lost progress, because the gate you closed has respawned and now you can't even go get more clues to seal it because you're once again stuck spending 2 turns in the other world. You've effectively "lost progress." However, you're still going to have your trophy for that gate, which means it's not lost progress, because closing gates you more gate trophies which further progresses you towards the goal of the game. Now, instead of having 1 gate trophy, you're going to have two! There's only one game with a "lost progress" as severe as EH's, and no modern designer board game wants to be compared to it. That game? Chutes and Ladders. No kid will EVER play that game, and think that rolling a die and landing on the chute before the end, that takes them all the way back to the beginning, is going to be fun. No kid will ever think that losing to that chute is fair, or interesting. The first time it happens to them, they're going to very quickly decide that they hate Chutes and Ladders and will never play it again.
  11. That's actually not a bad idea. It keeps you from having to repeat a mystery and from losing progress, while having the same overall impact on the game. I still think it might be a bit too harsh, primarily from a game time perspective, but it's a step in the right direction at least.
  12. It honestly doesn't need a revision, just "more of everything" which expansions are going to fix. Even the two flaws I posted about that are, frankly, major flaws, don't need a revised edition to fix. An expansion similar to Elder Sign Unseen Forces is all that's needed to take it from a solid 8 to a perfect 10. 1) More of everything 2) Rewrite and replace the "lose a solved mystery" mechanic with new cards.
  13. Obviously the main thing the game needs is more research encounter cards. Having 8 per old one is inexcusable. At bare minimum there needs to be at least enough to go through a single game without shuffling the deck. I don't mind repeating encounters in different games, but it should never happen in the same game. I'm going to have to disagree with Tibs on just about everything else. Especially on Investigators, Ancient Ones, Conditions, and spell cards. The only things I think the game is okay on the number of, is Monsters and assets. Ancient Ones and Investigators are the #1 way to get variety between different plays. Right now, every 4 games will be "the same" in theme, and in a game that is as dependent on theme as Eldritch Horror, we really need more than that. I would love to see more variety in the double sided cards. Obviously there shouldn't be more different TYPES of conditions, but having more of the same, with varying flip-effects would be great. The flip effects are my favorite part of Eldritch Horror, and it's easy to add more flip effects without diluting the ratio of unique conditions/spells. With artifacts and how unique and special they are in Eldritch compared to Arkham, I really don't think you'll ever have enough of them. Getting an artifact in game is awesome, and you really can never have too much variety there. As for new boards, I honestly hope that they don't do much there. I don't think the game needs it. However, it might be neat to have an "overlay" that adds plane travel to the board. Picture a clear plastic cover that is rolled over the board, that adds new ways to travel between locations as well as "air" encounters. That would be a new and unique way of adding more to the game, without making a whole new board. I especially don't think there needs to be an other world board. The reason being that gates aren't the focus of Eldritch like they were in Arkham. Instead, adding more mysteries and more ways of solving mysteries that don't require clue collection would be a better use of their design time.
  14. @mccrispy - it isn't about being hard. I'm completely fine with there being some cards that make the game harder for the investigators. I'm fine with a card that would outright kill me in a bad roll. I'm fine with a card that'd move doom up 3-4 spaces. These are all things that make the game hard. However, there is a difference between making the game hard and LOSING PROGRESS, which is the problem here. When you have a game that is three hours long, and you've been playing for an hour, complete your first mystery, and then draw a card that says "shuffle a solved mystery back into the deck" that isn't a time you say "wow this game just got really hard" it's a time you say "we just wasted the last hour doing absolutely nothing." That isn't fun. @Garthnait - I've played more games of AH without expansions than with, and I've played it a LOT. The only time that any one encounter came up twice in the same game was when we purposefully sat on a single space for several turns, and if you're doing that in AH you're probably not playing a good strategy. In EH, the only time it is a problem is with the research deck. With the other decks you're unlikely to be in the same place more than 2-3 times in a game, which is just like Arkham Horror. However, with research you will be encountering that deck easily 15 times in a single game. Most of Azathoth's mysteries involve getting a number of clue tokens equal to the number of players. In a 5 player game, that means you are absolutely guaranteed to go through the research deck at least twice. You're also likely to have a rumor, which will make you go through it a third time. You are constantly having encounters to get clues, and the likelyhood of repeat encounters in the same game is extremely high for the research deck. I've played twice now, and every time I've repeated the same encounters in the research deck in both games.
  15. I played Eldritch Horror for the first time on Wednesday, after having preordered it and eagerly awaiting it's release from the moment it was announced. While the game is amazing, and everything I was hoping for in an "sequel" to Arkham Horror, my group was incredibly disappointed with two very serious aspects to the game. 1) The Elder God research decks are incredibly light on variety. During our first game we went through the deck 3-4 times, and saw the same events several times. There desperately needs to be more cards for each elder god, as you go through them for every single clue that spawns. In a game with 5 players we went through the deck extremely quickly. 2) Losing solved mysteries is the worst mechanic. It nearly ruined our first experience of the game. We had just completed our first mystery, and had started on our second. Around the same time, we had shuffled the research deck causing us to get a repeat research encounter. Oh boy brain surgery again! Oh, this time we failed. "Take one solved mystery, and shuffle it back into the mystery deck" Wait, what? There is NOTHING less fun in a game, that having actual progress towards the game's goal ripped out from underneath you. Especially when the goal of Eldritch Horror is to solve 3 mysteries. You have just needlessly lengthened the game by 1/3, making us redo work we've already spent a LOT of game time on. It's one thing to bring down the doom track, or make us draw an extra mythos card, or discard mythos cards, or any effect that makes the game harder for the adventurers to finish, but actually taking away hard earned progress when the ONLY goal of the game is that very specific hard earned progress was not fun. Having gone through the research deck 3-4 times in that game, we could have EASILY had every single time we pulled that research card cause us to lose a mystery. That isn't fun. That isn't good design. All it does is make players feel completely defeated. I don't care if the game was balanced with losing mysteries in mind. It's just not a fun mechanic. In fact, it was such little fun that I'm very tempted to never put those cards into the game. I really hope that in a future expansion, Fantasy Flight rethinks the cards that cause players to lose solved mysteries. I also really hope that we see more variety in elder god cards, to make this sort of thing less common. These two oversights took Eldritch Horror from being a perfect 10, to a solid 7 or 8.
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