lowercaseM
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Posts posted by lowercaseM
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Thank you Fizz,
I had searched for something on this topic beforehand, but obviously I didn't search well enough.
In your defence, the search feature doesn't seem to work very well. I've had trouble in the past finding topics, even when I know they exist.
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Keep in mind that the unique figures (both allies and villains) are generally really over priced (especially the wave 1 guys), so I would only recommend getting them if you want to replace the cardboard or want the agenda sets as you will likely not get a chance to use them in the campaign. This is getting better mind you (so excited about Dengar), but for the most part you'll be using villains only when the mission explicitly calls for them, so off you don't mind proxies or card board tokens, then I say song worry about it.
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Edit: Beaten to the punch.
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I think the real problem here is you are relying on your son for the rules. if you don't know what the campaign is talking about when it mentions xp and credits, you need to just sit down and read the rules yourself because those are so central to the campaign that if you are unaware out them you are undoubtedly Missing other things. You can down load them and read them on your spare minutes. Campaign has allot for a new imperial to manage, expecting him to manage rebels too much.
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I think it's Lord Vader's command that has a sweet card that gets you a -5 discount on a single deployment
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A New Threat is hard because it needs a lot of movement in addition to crowd control. It becomes harder if you selected characters that severely lack in one attribute. In one game it took Gaarkhan three tries to get his strength test finished, so it really was not because of lucky terminal placement.
And that's why Saska + toolkit is amazing :-)
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Ah the insufficiently supportive of the revolution charge. Good one.Sexual harassment in the gaming community is a huge deal and the fact that some assholes get so up in arms just from people trying to talk about it only proves how big an issue it is.
For the record I've tried to get girls into it but it hasn't interested them. I've done my part, have you OP?
Quick question though: why aren't more guys into scrap booking? Are you into scrap booking? If not, why do you perpetuate the sexist stereotypes of arts and crafts?
As for harsh reactions...What do you expect? People also don't like the implicit "you are guilty by default" stuff. You come making that charge, then wonder why you get a negative reaction? Especially with the condescension doing from sine of the supporting comments? Really?
I hate these threads because they seem to exist solely so people can do some moral preening about how they care so much more than you, and by the way you should stop what you are doing and reflect on your life and the bad things you or someone like you has done, entirely at the discretion of some internet stranger. That some other guy will show up in a month saying the same thing is irrelevant, we should confine wag our beards as though these are deep ponderings.
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So I realize that it is April 1st, but there is a con going on and they are at least displaying bespin figures. I had hopes that maybe they had made an announcement.
gotmyhopesupandexpertlydashedthem.gif
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I agree that granularity is definately a problem when assigning points for single figures. I also think that the fact that you only play with 40 points is part of the trouble. if darth vader is 1/2 your points, its harder to justify him than when he is only (for example) 1/3 your points. Then maybe you can afford to bring him for the isolated cases where you want his unique talents. Of course, still having the disadvantages of a unique figure, it might not be worth it even then, as there would be more out there to just wipe the floor with him.
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So to go the opposite direction than normal, take a royal guard. Good unit that currently is reasonably priced. What do you think would be a fair price for a royal guard as a single figure deployment group? What about add a unique? I'm going with 4 and 3 respectively.
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The slow reveal of new tiles is a nice addition. Makes the game more exploratory, and less an exercise is mathematics.
This is the part I like the most, but honestly the enemy ai part isn't thrilling me. Specifically the part game gives you generalized instructions rather than specifically saying go here and attack this guy.
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I agree. I really wish they would take the time to hire a serous math head to do some consultation on these sorts of things, not doing the creative work just doing the math of ensuring accurate costing.This is a great discussion that I think needs to be had. I'm not opposed to cheaper, or more powerful uniques, I just want the developers to have a system to assess cost that is not arbitrary, and takes these in-obvious factors into account.
I wonder if the initial set were rated purely on combat prowess. In a one on one fight, the uniques are probably costed right. Seriously, can anyone take Vader in a one on fight? I mean Luke might be able to kite him but that's really dependent on terrain being favourable as force choke offers unavoidable damage if you are in sight.
Attachments like combat vet will add 6 extra wounds to a 3 figure squad but only 2 to a single figure squad.
I hadn't thought of that, that's a really good point. Yeah any attachment that applies to a whole group gets more efficient for a multifigure group
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The recent pages of the Bespin! topic have centered around unique figures and how they cost so much more than the equally powerful - and yet still cheaper - Bossk. The costs of unique figures is a rather complex topic, and I wanted to address it more fully here and see if something can be done about that, without directly address the specific costs of any on unit (that's another topic for another day!).
Many problems with unique figures aren't simply ... unique ... to them, but rather exist for any single figure deployment group. For purposes of discussion, I will be comparing the regular Stormtrooper group with a single figure group that costs 2 points, and consists of only a single regular Stormtrooper, this way the only variable in play is the number of figures in the group (since 3 instances of our single figure group would be equivalent to the standard deployment group).
When compared to the multifigure deployment group, the single figure deployment group falls short.
- No Reinforcements. A single figure group can't be reinforced, only redeployed. While in our given example this is a minor issue, there are two cases where it becomes an important distinction: cases like Tusken Raiders where the reinforcement cost/figure is less than the deployment cost/figure, and cards that require reinforcement to trigger such as the Agenda card “Perpetual Reinforcements” or require you to place a figure near others of its deployment group.
- Less effective activations. If you are attacking with a multifigure group, you make multliple attacks, or you can move to different locations, rapidly reinforce a location, and generally do more in a single activation, which means your opponent can't react to it. Consider the scenario where you can interact with a token to get points, but the token is behind a door. Our single figure group can’t do that in a single activation, which means he would open the door but not be able to reach the token, giving the opponent an opportunity to react and even prevent it, but a multifigure group could have one figure open the door, and another figure move and interact with the token, all before the opponent can react to it. Which brings me to the next point, telegraphing.
- Telegraphing your moves. The nature of any turn based game is that every move you make gives your opponent more information about your overall strategy, knowledge they can then use to stymie you. With a multifigure group you can enact plans while giving your opponent fewer opportunities to react.
- Losing the single figure costs you the whole group. Admittedly this is obvious but it has severe consequences. In skirmish, it means that the moment that one figure is defeated, your opponent gains the points for it. A multifigure group requires all of the figures to be defeated, allowing for tactics such as splitting up the group to prevent TPK if an engagement goes bad, or sending the last member of the group running away so they can’t be killed. Rather than taking out two Stormtroopers and still having nothing to show for it, you would have gotten points for the two figures you defeated. My last skirmish game I played a trooper squad and ended the game with 3 groups that had only one trooper left. My opponent had defeated 6 Stormtroopers (two of them elites) and had nothing to show for it. Additionally, when combined with the lack of reinforcements, it gives your attachments a more limited life span in skirmish, while in campaign, agenda cards that grant a special ability, and discard after a group is defeated are much more risky and prone to failure – even if you had three of the same upgrade, if you lose, then redeploy two figures, the newly deployed ones will not have the upgrade. Meanwhile, if you have a group and can reinforce, you could reinforce that group to keep from losing the upgrade.
- They still cost an entire open group. This is only for campaign, but the IP only has a limited number of open groups. A single figure deployment group takes up the same number of open groups as an entire squad of Stormtroopers (the number is 1). Especially on missions with a small number of open groups, this can be a real problem.
In addition to the weakness of single figure deployment groups, unique figures have one extra weakness: No redundancy. If you have two Imperial officers, and lose one, you’ll be weaker but you at least have an officer around to command. In campaign, you could even redeploy the officer you lost for 2 Threat and you’re back in action. Unique figures cannot do that. You have one chance to make a unique figure worthwhile, and if they are defeated before that, you can’t get them back. This makes uniques even riskier than other single figure deployment groups simply on the basis of what they are, even before you get into whether they are overcosted or useless.
In fact, far as I can figure it, the only situation where single figure deployments have an advantage is in the number of activations they have available, but in skirmish, that doesn’t matter as much due to the pass rule, and in campaign there are other limiters, like threat and the previously mentioned open groups.
For this reason I contend that unique figures should all be cheaper than equally powerful multifigure groups. Consider that the most commonly used single figure groups are either cheap (Imperial officers, Gideon, C3PO), have some unique ability and enough survivability to make it worthwhile (Leia), or are the right balance of everything –including cost! – to be worthwhile (Luke). As an aside, this is part of why I think mercenaries struggle: Rebels and Imperials both have 3 figure groups to fill things out, and solid, reasonably cheap 2 figure groups. Most mercenary groups are 1 or 2 figures so that even with the same number of deployments, they have only a fraction as many figures.
This is part of why arguments about how much so-and-so should cost tend to go nowhere conclusive: They often don’t acknowledge the inherent weakness in the figure simply because it is a single figure deployment. This is also why I’m not worried about Bossk being OP: He’s starting out with such a serious disadvantage to begin before points and abilities and stats are assigned that he needs to be awesome to make for it. Or, you know, pretty good and dirt cheap. One of those two.
The rule of thumb I’ve being thinking about is that single figure deployments they should cost no more than their health, and often dramatically less.
Being a lover of the campaign, which is my main draw to the game, allies and villians are near and dear to me. I want them to be brought in. It makes it more fun and interesting. However, especially for villains, the cost to use them is often too much. You have to spend Influence to buy a mission, then you have to win the mission (by no means guaranteed), then you have to spend an open group on them (remember they are unique and so the troubles with single figures and open groups is made worse), then get the threat to deploy them, and then use them trying to get their worth. Or just deploy a squad of elite stormies and call it a day. Let us assume a villain with an appropriate cost is created. That takes care of the threat problem, at least he’s worth his points now but that still a lot of effort to go through to bring him in. What of existing villains and allies? What can we do now?
I’ve been thinking that perhaps the campaign should reward you for bringing a villain or an ally. If the IP brings a villain and wins, he gains an influence point and maybe a point reduction in bringing that villain in future missions. But if the rebels manage to take out the villain, they get a bounty of, say, 100 credits per hero, even if they lose the mission. If the rebels bring a unique ally, simply reverse the rewards. This provides an interesting risk/reward mechanic to it beyond the simple “Is this guy worth the cost” question that will often be “no” for many existing villains and allies.
I’m not intending to get into a discussion on specific figures, but more wanting to address the inherent imbalance caused by the number of figures in a group, which I’ve not seen any serious discussion of. Do you guys think I’m off base? Am I exaggerating the trouble with single and unique figure groups?
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Just wanted to note that playing 4 rebels is inherently difficult. it sounds like it should be easy but keeping track of and effectively using all the cool abilities the heros have is really tough. I think playing IP is easier than doing that.
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What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?
For how good Boosk is, you have to relook at DV/BF/IG88...heck even Chewbacca/Han/RGC. My ideas:
DV: reduce cost to 13 (let's be honest, his surge abilities or auto abilities are lacking; he has potential to just hit hard)
Boba Fett: reduce cost to 12
IG88: reduce cost to 10 and give him an auto colored third dice or give him ability to shoot through targets like HK's
RGC: reduce cost to 12
Han: reduce cost to 9
Chewbacca: reduce cost to 12
Most of these are just a reduction of 3-5 pts.
~D
RGC at 12 would have a huge effect on campaign, IMO. That figure kills a campaign mission in my experience, so any decrease in cost should only be skirmish based.
Have you played him as a villian, complete with going through the effort of first winning and then paying the threat for him? He's fast and strong, but with that 15 point cost, you're looking at 2+ turns worth of threat (at least) to bring him in, even on the highest threat level in the campaign, or one round plus a "increase threat by threat level" trigger, with a couple of extra points thrown in. To bring him in you're looking at going at least 1 full turn without reinforcing or deploying anything. That's a serious cost.
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That's fair. Bossk will definitely be drive out other uniques and become the benchmark others well be judged by going forward. I do think 10 points would be the upper limit on cost. It's kinda been floating in my head that uniques need to cost less than their health (as a rule) for all the reasons stayed previously.That's a good explanation. I don't have so much a problem with Bossk costing 8, though I think it should be 10, based on the arguments presented about earlier uniques being too high, but that it has wiped out some of my favorite character, though I like Bossk. Do you think that FF will errata a cost change? Or do you think they'll just make new figures of, say, Dart Vader, IG 88, Boba Fett, etc, down the road? What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?
As for what to do about the existing uniques: I...don't know. It makes me sad to say this but between x wing stuff and ia, a lot of my confidence in ffg's ability (or willingness) to balance those games has faltered. I can't say what I think FFG will do. I think though that errata are unlikely. They seem to only be willing to do that when something affecting the game as a whole (such as the 4x4 in IA and the phantom in xwing) needs changing, which I kinda agree with. Most likely, they do nothing more than release command cards, attachments, etc that technically work for the figure they are included with, but are really tailor made for earlier units that don't get used.
My hope though is that they start releasing mini campaigns that focus on these under used characters that allow them to print new cards for them that are better balanced, and instead of wasting a figure pack on the new version, use that spare slot to print extras of a figure that only comes in the boxes. A Darth Vader mini campaign whose accompanying figure pack include royal guards. An ig88 focused expansion that has hk figure packs. You get the idea.
As for balancing them, I don't think the answer is always points. I mentioned Somos previously. Boba Fett is pretty close to the right cost, maybe one or two points less? I think part of his trouble is that one of his strengths is his mobility, but on alot of maps, it just doesn't matter that much. Part of his trouble is also lack of support, which is slowly being remedied as the mercenaries are being filled out. Ig maybe should be maybe in the 8-9 region. I've not played with him and haven't seen him played either. Vader on the other hand is a tough one. I don't think points are his only problem. He's tough and slow so he gets ignored, but reduce his points and he gets ignored even more. Though he gets more viable he's a smaller percentage of points. I think Vader would be great if you used him on the Hoth skirmish mission that had the probe droids. Just send him down that corridor by himself and dare any one to try and take those points from him.
Sam Tomahawk reacted to this -
I agree. Blah blah i won't quote myself blah blah...Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.
I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.
That's a very thoughtful post. I was wondering if there were any non-unique figures that could be judged at comparable cost. So while, I party agree, especially about the part that you get two characters, let's break it down point by point.
The biggest issue I have is that Bossk has 3 abilities that do not require surge. And his one surge ability, 2 pierce, has a 50% chance of being available per turn based on his green dice. The Tusken are mellee and not ranged, and while a red and a green dice would normally be low on accuracy, the creators have decided to give Bossk two free accuracy so he has a 100% chance for 3 accuracy, a 50% chance for 4 or above, and a 16.6% chance for 5 accuracy. So while he is medium range, he is still ranged. The elite Tuskens, both of them are given +1 damage, and Bossk is given +2 damage. That would probably be fair if that was Bossk's only free ability, but he also has the accuracy, and a guarantee of at least one block.
Now if we compare their abilities, the Tuskens can shoot their ginormous musket for up to 5 accuracy and up to 4 damage, but can't apply any other abilities. That's not bad. Bossk gets indirect fire, and while I can't fully make it out, I don't think it specifically says that you can't use other abilities, I'm pretty sure you cannot apply Bossk's +2 damage to the splash. I could be wrong. Still his grenade is a pretty powerful ability for dealing with lesser characters. But now we come to the creme dela crème ability. The ability to regenerate 3 health (and mitigate one damage with a block) every turn without spending a surge. That to me seems the tipping point in saying Bossk is under cost at 8 points.
I see your point, but don't forget the tuskens get to attack twice while still moving which ups the group's damage and flexibility. You're right the regen is tough to overcome but it happens at the end of the round, so you have to survive through the activation of all of your opponent's units, so he's vulnerable to being piled on. He's not fast so he can't get away too well, and with the white die he's not exactly tanky. None of this is to say he isn't tough but I think the disadvantages balance out. He's still just one figure and that's a big deal.
The opportunity cost of using single figure deployment groups has been on my mind lately as I've recently started a campaign playing as the imperial for the first time, especially when you can't redeploy them.
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I agree. What people need to remember about Bossk is he's more expensive than a pair of elite tusken raiders, which gives you more health, more attacks, and one more figure. That last one is super important as it means losing one doesn't automatically give your opponent points, and you are better able to contest objectives. In campaign, board presence of uniques is also limited so for uniques to matter they need to be sufficiently tough and dangerous that ignoring them is dangerous. Plus they can't be reinforced but they still take up an open group, so you have one shot to make them useful. Additionally they have to be at least as dangerous anything else you could deploy or it isn't worth it. For all these reasons most uniques aren't considered worth it in the campaign. IG-88 costs as much as a group of elite royal guards. For the same points the guards buff allies, have the same amount of health, comparable damage, can be reinforced and redeployed, are faster, and you get two of them. While iggy might be a match for one elite guard, two?Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.
I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.
I would like to see a villain who isn't tough on his own but buffs allies to the point that not taking him out hurts you. They tried this with Somos and Soren but really over costed them. Somos should be like 5 points. Yes that's pretty cheap and the about cost of an elite officer for a (mostly) superior figure, but remember: he can't be redeployed, so when he's gone, he's gone. He needs to have a discount in campaign to account for such a risky investment. Alternatively he could afford to be boosted in his abilities. I think he should have an ability where friendly troopers don't block your line of sight. That way you can keep him behind the front lines shooting, while still using his command ability. That would, I feel, be enough of a that that the rebels would have to take him on, and in skirmish that would help him as well, with the added benefit of enhancing tactical play.
Masterchiefspiff and Sam Tomahawk reacted to this -
Been running a single set of Elite Tuskens in my Merc list and have to say I'm pretty happy with them. Their surges suck but the red/green with added damage can hit white dice like a truck.
Plus hp wise they are effecient at 7 points for 14 hp. The four movement isn't great obviously but if you happen to be out of reach of your target guess what? No worries you can just cycler them from a couple spaces away. Nothing amazing to write home about but just an all around effecient set of front line units for Mercs.
Would definitely recommend them over the regular versions. 2 more points gets you an extra 6 hp and the free damage on attacks.
Yeah I find the same. The elite tuskens are great. They aren't too squishy and that automatic +1 is great insurance against bad dice rolls
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Elite probe droids can do some serious damage, which surprised. Did like 7 damage on Leia in one shot, taking out second round. It died right after that but still, it did what it needed to. Wish it was faster though.
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Actually had an idea today: mini campaign called binary revolution. Focuses on droids and a scheme of ig88's give then a prefect chance to release a good version of the character. Include mine and factory tiles.
biohunter21 reacted to this -
Honestly it's probably to make sure intent and wording match. Maybe there's some command card they have in mind that the would be impacted by the wording change (can't imagine what though)I'm actually upset at how they handled Leia. It's obvious that the errataed text is the intended effect, but there are several timing questions left unanswered.
She was obviously a valid target, but could she legally perform the attack?
Battlefield leadership doesn't explicitly allow multiple attacks in an activation. How explicit does an ability have to be too allow it?
And also, whose activation is it when a character performs an interrupt? Does it cease being anyone's activation or does it remain the interrupted characters activation?
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Two, for those who don't like Lando, paint him wearing all beige and call him 'Blando'.
Wanted to write a snarky continuation of that (something something Sando) but then I realized that I can't top that. :-)
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Just want to point out that they seem to be getting much better at creating worth while allies and villains. All three uniques seem priced well enough That I'd want to include them in either campaign or skirmish (seriously did anyone read agent blase's abilities? Viewing then possibly discarding enemy command cards? Awesome!)
New toys are on the boat!
in Star Wars: Imperial Assault
Posted
Hahaha! Great joke man! The "on the boat" means it'll be here soon! Hahaha! Hilarious! +1