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Everything posted by SailorMeni

  1. Your problem is you disregard every data that does not come directly out of games. We might not know what lists were used in round Robin but we can be sure that at least 90% of finalists are experienced players with skill and probably hundreds of games in there pocket and a thorough thought process behind their list. So in itself the final lists are already the result of collections of data. And since every player wants to win and tries to create the most efficient list (and tries to counter meta lists), analysis of the lists can be meaningful. For Bossk I agree we don't have enough data (but NOT zero, nada!) for final conclusions but we can say that he is very likely better than the occupier tank. For other older units which are in no list we can say with quite certainty that they are not efficient (e-Web, Airspeeder) and others which are in every list (sniperteams) are very efficient. Does that mean it's impossible to win without snipers? Of course not. Does it mean it is harder to win without snipers? **** yeah! In other words: If every man is Sokrates, Sokrates is Sokrates
  2. Ok, lets say this good coach gets a bunch of toddlers as a team. Will he be able to win any game in a major (or just amateur) league? Being a good player is one element of improving your chances to win. And so is having a good list/team. A good player has a higher chance in winning with any list than a bad player. And any player has a higher chance of winning with a good list opposed to a terrible one. Add them up (actually multiply them since we are talking about probabilities) and the best chance of winning is being a good player having a good list. One generic Rebel Commander with 3 naked Fleet Troopers is a legal list. Are you seriously arguing that this list has any chance of winning against any normal list against a player that is not gagged and blindfolded? If you want you can fill that list up with the worst units and the moste terrible uprades (targeting scopes, Comms Jammer, ...) and you'll find a list that not even the best player will have any success against any half decent opponent. What you are searching for is a perfect answer to everything without question. But that's not how statistics work. It is scientifically legitimate to draw conclusions already from a few datapoints, as long as you state the margins. And actually in Legion we have lots of data to draw from. Be it people statistically analizing attack outcomes, evaluating efficiency of upgrades, lists brought to tournaments and of course play experiences and results. If every list has 2+ sniper teams since months, this is statistically significant, as well as the complete absence of upgrades like targeting scopes or comms jammer. For other units it might be too soon to draw final conclusions but you can find trends and have findings with larger margins. It is for example absolutely reasonable to assume that bossk is probably more useful than the occupier tank, just based on the fact that more people bring it to the field and more successful players have it in their list. I'd say like a 75% probability. Statistics is all about taking the data you can get and making the best out of it. Of course you can always argue that you need more data. With that, you'll never be able to draw any conclusions whatsoever because the perfect answer simply does not exist and with new releases every month, you'd need to start gathering data from start. The point is collecting what we know, drawing conclusions and use them to maximize chances in the next game. If you don't like doing that, fine. But you cannot reasonably argue that any analysis is worthless unless thousands and hundreds of thousands of tests have been done. That's just not how statistics work ...
  3. Yes, the DLT can shoot and the rebels have heavy cover. Range and cover is always measured from the leader only, LOS is measured per model.
  4. There is no such thing as "realism" in a made up world. Call them Hostile environment Troopers instead of Snowtrooper. Maybe there are dangerous fumes in the jungle or heavy sandstorms in the desert. Paint them green/brown and you're fine. Only thing I see a bit weird is half naked models (which don't exist yet) on Hoth. But then say they wear thermal bandages 😉
  5. I absolutely agree that we need new missions to mix up the meta a bit. A killpoint scenario would be a good way, but also other missions which prefer tough units (vehicles!) over sneaky claim actions. But I don't see that Legion or the Meta is in a bad place atm. I actually like the fact, that the core units are strong and used very extensively. I know so many games where you take the absolute bare minimum of crappy core units to save as many points as possible for the overpowered elite slots. And nearly every games top meta is built by taking the best unit to the limit, then the next best unit, then the next best unit, until you run out of points. The trick is, to balance the game, where the best choices aren't obvious. Looking at the top placings of tournaments, we actually have some variety. Yes we have the obvious Twins lists which haven't changed since commandos came out, but at Adapticon for example a Han/Leia Chewie List came in second, Fleet Troopers and Pathfinders were included in the list placing 3rd and also multiple Veers/Boba/Snowtroopers builds as well as an Emperor list made it top 7. So it is not a fact, that you face the same copy paste lists in every game on a tournament. Also not everybody going to tournaments has the approach of playing the one popular list at the time. Some will try to counter metalists and many will just play what models they like / have painted. So there is a large variety already but we only talk about the few winning lists, also ignoring the fact, that David Kingsley is a really good player who prefers to play the wonder twins atm and he would probably also get top placements with a different list. What I see as a bit of a problem at the moment are sniper teams. As stated already, they are cheap thus helping the unit count go up, and very safe to play. They only get countered by other snipers and Veers/Leias 1-pip cards. Once you won the sniper war, you have the unit activation advantage and a very reliable wound/kill every round. They are a major reason why some more expensive units are almost unplayable (Deathtroopers). I am looking forward to the smoke greanades and hope they help counter snipers a bit (presumably placing los blockers). Also The mortars may help here, though I don't think that crit fishing is a reliably way of getting rid of sniper teams. As for activation delaying / passing options, I bet there will be some way in the future. They introduced it in Imperial Assault and in Armada, sooner or later it will come for Legion. My money is on a command upgrade (5P-ish) where you can pass if you have fewer activations left. It is exhaustable and refreshes each round.
  6. I can say with good confidence that at least this statement is bantha poodoo. Considering all possible deployment zones leaves us with only 1/3 of space that is in no deployment zone. If we follow the rule of 1/4 of space covered with terrain, every table would have a very dense pile of terrain in the center and a lot of free space everywhere else ...
  7. I agree. Though it's hard to avoid two of those FDs ... Just one last advice: Don't get cocky 😉
  8. At least the list sounds like a lot of fun! I hope you'll report how it fared on the tournament. I would definitely exchange Sabotaged Communications for Coordinated Bombardment (There is no better way to start a battle than with 2 Dodge tokens on Chewie and Han each and a shot an all enemy Sniper teams) and with only 3 core units (one of which can't really shoot) Covering Fire can easily be exchanged for Change of Plans.
  9. SailorMeni


    You played everything correctly and Luke would have run off the board had he failed to remove any suppression. But in fact there are a lot more options to prevent units with lots of suppression tokens to run away. One would be to use the inspire keyword. Then there are some tricks with command cards: Jyn's Complete the mission ignores panic, Leia's No Time For Sorrows might push you far enough away from the edget to not run off the board, Luke's Return of the Jedi card removes Suppression (yes, also his own), ... To actually scare Luke off the board is quite hard, but panicking in general is a solid and impactful part of the game.
  10. You can break it down to two issues: 1) the army list 2) how you use the units/terrain/objectives 1) to be honest, I think the list is rather weak. I tend to win most games in my community but wouldn't see me doing nearly as good with that. Without going into detail, I advise you to browse through lists in the internet (for example: https://swlegionodds.com/2019/02/10/lvo-top-6-lists-and-brief-reca/) to find strong and successful lists. 2) The game is won by objectives. Every action you take in the game should first and foremost help you win the objective. Never run out in the open unless it is necessary to give you an advantage in winning the game. Stay in cover when possible, don't shoot at units if it is not likely it gives you a benefit (hard cover + dodge is not a good target). Hiding behind terrain and waiting for an opportunity can often be the better choice. Look what units you opponent has and try to find a counter. Han is bothering you? Try entangling him in Close combat (doubly move to to that is fine!), he will be occupied for some time. Snipers are bothering you? Use Veers 1-pip to get rid of a unit in round 1. Fleet Troopers are piercing you to pieces? The have only range 2: wait for them to come to you and position yourself in a way, that they have to go into the open to do so. Walking carpet? Wound him with your units and time the kill for Boba to get the bounty! Believe us and the statistics, the fractions are very well balanced. Don't blame the rebels being overpowered but look at what you can change to even the odds. Also talk with your opponents after the game. What do they think you could have done better. What situations were they affraid of? You could even do a list swap some time and look if your opponent can outplay you with imperials as well. Maybe the rebel playstyle is more suited for you and you would like to play them more often. And most of all: don't focus on winning the game, focus on having fun!
  11. It often boils down do personal preferences and experience. If you don't find a way to make Boba effective with your playstyle, don't use him. I for example used Han already a lot and it doesn't seem to really work out. In my first game, he ran off the board on turn 2 (my mistake ...) but since then he most of the time is just hiding around, doing very little because whenever he goes out in the open (and by open I mean visible in heavy cover) he takes a beating immediately. I just don't seem to be able to roll anything but blanks with his defense dice. On paper it looks good and all and I really like his command cards but on the table it doesn't work out for me. Fett on the other hand is a defining player in all my games that's why I can't think of a list without him (when I aim for efficiency).
  12. Even in the ideal situation where Boba jumps out in the open, gets shot by the FD with barrage and aim twice before boba jumps out again, he gets 3 wounds and still survives and can hide the rest of the game. But since Boba is not stupid, he would at least take heavy cover, reducing the damage to barely 2 wounds. If he is a clever dude, he even brings medics and/or guards and takes 1 wound (if even) and is perfectly save. When I'm playing Boba and there is Chewbacca on the other side, I'm very likely to do some happy dance. There is no easier Bounty than him. every hit translates into wounds (he even takes wounds when shooting at other stuff), he runs towards action and mid game even loses suppression-cover. The tricky part is to not kill the carpet with something else before Fett can do it 😆.
  13. Did you use his Command Cards? The rockets make him deal an averager of 3 wounds on range 3, ignoring cover. The flamethrower wipes an entire unit and the 1-pip card imobilizes one unit (hello Luke!). And during the rest of the game he reliably kills 1 trooper (range 3) or 2 troopers (range 2) and then there is the bounty. His save is good but you are not supposed to move him in the open and wait for him to be shot. You stay away or in cover and if need be "guard" or heal him. In my opinion he is the second best model in the game, only topped by Luke.
  14. In my experience there are two types of Legion Games: One where one side hase a huge advantage (either by list, play experience or sometimes just luck with the dice) where the game is decided after 3 rounds and one side gives up. This also happenes when one or both sides act recklessly and figures are taken from the board with shovels. The other is where two equally skilled players with equally potent lists face each other and every activaction counts and could turn the tide. Both players play defensively and think twice about every move and very few models actually die because there is so much positioning, hiding, and dodging. These games often last 4+ hours but are the most fun and intense games (and don't feel like they are dragging forever). Most Tournament games are of the latter kind.
  15. This topic comes up every other week and I pretty sure there will be no Points increase in the near future and very likely not ever. The game is balanced for 800P and very good in my opinion. I have a feeling that the mostly driving reason for wanting 1000P is because 1000 feels like a nice number. I'm pretty convinced that if everything in Legion was priced 20% higher and 1000P would be the standard there would be no question of whether we should increase to 1250 Points. I tried writing a 1000P list for an upcoming ground assault event and I always wound up creating a 800P list I'm comfortable with and then adding some (and then worrying about activation control). It's mostly what you are accustomed to. If you played already some 1000P games you'll of course feel more comfortable with it. I like it as it is and see no reason to change it. Everybody is of course to play however they like. But the standard is 800P, it's not going to change and please don't try to force it on anybode else.
  16. I played two round of Operation Take the Hill yesterday and it was a blast! It works really well and makes for quick and fun games (both games were decided at the start of round 3 after less than 1h). You have to definitely take the Battle Builder rules from there because the battle-cards for the large game don't scale down to 3x3. You might wanna tweak some monor things (Key positions as per FAQ of the Battlecard, Secure the drone reprogram actions per round) and maybe cut them out to use them as Battlecards to mix up the selected scenarios if you are playing it regularly.
  17. The backdraw of Covering Fire is that you can only order Corps units. But you can add Comms Relay to a Corps unit to relay the order to another type (Luke). So you benefit from the Covering Fire effekt while still being able to give Luke an order to activate him whenever needed.
  18. How is your experience with activation control? I understand that you will order Han every round (except maybe the first where you pick coordinated fire) and chewie half the time. The rest of the time you draw from the bag and since 5 different kinds of tokens are in there you cannot guarantee to get the best pick a lot of time. Also how do you fare against maximized Wonder Twins? They have more activations and Luke as a powerful centerpiece to destroy Han easily if he approaches too close (which he has to do since he has only range 2 ...).
  19. Looks decent enough. No bad selection, decent amount of activations. The one thing that sticks out to me is activation control. You have 5 unit types and quite limited control over which unit you can give orders to (Single Leia or Han, Chewies Cards are fixed). It is often very important to activate the right unit at the right time. Drawing Chewie too late/too early or NOT drawing a corps squad can destroy a good plan. I personally would consider replacing the 1.4 FD with a unit of Fleet Troopers with Scatter Gun. It can criple an enemy unit / commander very easily. They are fragile of course, but you have Chewie. And if you add a Comms Tech with Releay you could consider picking Covering fire to further improve your staying power.
  20. Han is nice and all but far from being the best Leader. When I go for efficiency I always pick Luke. It is no coincidence that almost every successful Rebel Turnament list fields Luke.
  21. as @arnoldrew said. Also since that post I changed my mind. I though of some nice uses of the pathfinder and also the range 4 upgrade made a huge difference. Looking forward to seeing them in action today!
  22. SailorMeni


    After looking at the rules, I don't see it that clearly any more ... It would seem so, since For Greanates and Hardpoint it is ruled explicitly But this paragraph is limited to only apply to hard point and grenades without leaving it open for Armament (for example "some upgrade cards _like_ hard point or grenade ..."). So one could argue that this is not true for Armament upgrades. The weapon even has the same name (A-300) which would suggest, that they only have one weapon in different modes. It would seem odd though, that you can't reconfigure to the original version again. And there is no rule stating you lose the original weapon either. I would like to have a specific ruling for Armament, though I will most likely play it like grenades/hard points until stated otherwise.
  23. I thought the same, but I think an average of 3,75 hits (with Pao) on Range 4 would be too powerful. 1 white die on range 4 would still be decent and more likely. That would indeed push them to my list of very valid unit choices 🙂.
  24. Sure I understand the concept of different tools and I see why Wookies can be very useful with their huge amount of HP and Close Combat punch. But I can't see where Pathfinders fit in. They are like Commando Squads (which almost nobody plays): Too expensive for their effect on the game. And I find their weapons and abilities counter themselves a bit. Infiltrate suggests being lone on the flank, so why Inspire? The heavy weapons look very underpowered in general. Range 4 is immediately cancelled by cover most of the times (I don't pay 80+ points for a suppression token). Danger sense is good and all, but when you are shot at (i.e. gain suppression for more defense) you very likely lose HP on the way reducing your firepower drastically. Still looking forward to see what people make of them and I will surely give them a try. I just don't see an obvious reason for picking them yet. If vehicles make a comeback Bistan might actually be useful.
  25. From first glance, I don't see why I would ever pick them over Snipers ...
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