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Norsehound

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  1. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    That MC75 only has EWS to stop fighters. Looks like it's supposed to Raddus in and try to live to that activation. Against the fighter list above it's going to go nose-in to the opponent with EWS there and try to blunt the bomber attacks long enough to survive into it's activation and open fire with everything, with enough leading shots to try maximizing damage potential. The most interesting thing about that setup is Gallant Heaven with Slicer tools. It's a poor man's EWS, and not completely immune to "things" (B-Wings striking with hit-crit and hit: Norra peels off the shield and crit-hit still gets through), but it's a start. Anyone paying attention would probably activate Yavaris first to make sure they can use their fighters before Slicers comes in to deny it for a turn. And yeah, Leia can still be in the next ship over, on the GR-75 carrying BCC.
  2. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    I think we have some miscommunication here, Rapid. I was looking for a play-by-play to see a maximum squad Yavaris list lose to an Imperial list. The video I linked showed the Yavaris list winning easily (Yavaris fighter ball mulches an Interdictor, the Raider, and then the ISD with help from Salvation pulling in behind the ISD), and the second list is a Raddus drop vs an Imperial list with no Yavaris on the table. What I desired to see was Yavaris losing, because I wanted to analyze why and how Yavaris was destroyed, how the list managed to circumvent the fighter ball, and what tools it used to accomplish this. From that, there is insight into what an Imperial player needs to do, as first player, to beat it. Ruthless strategists with EWS is an interesting approach vs the Yavaris list, and something I haven't considered. I feel it's a gamble- the race to killing off enemy fighters depeletes your own fighters, making them easier for a Rebel double-tapper to kill. As well, Rieekan always has the mechanism of making a zombie escort to force the meat of your attacks in a turn on a dead squadron (wedge, it's always wedge). RS lets you splash single points of damage beyond that (I think it ignores escort) but it depeletes what you can do. A Yavaris ball taking two escort fighters would be able to tag-team it to force you to engage them. But by this point we're getting into precise squadron play, which I have a harder time predicting. Going EWS leaves your brace vulnerable, but if you're also in a squadron-heavy meta it's likely a better pick. I will observe that the most effective Yavaris carrier squadron around here (in the SF Bay area), seems to be: Jan Ors / Norra Wexley / 3x B-Wing squadrons / Shara Bey (to divide up portions of the enemy squadron ball) OR Tycho / Wedge / +20 points left for other fighters (more escorts, tweaking Shara-Wedge) Norra is key because she pumps the B-Wings into doing effective 4 damage against shielded targets (assuming BCC and Toryn Far allow for a better chance on those rolls, easily done with a single flotilla). She's also very effective with Y-Wings, as mythics ran a list to test that possibility against me and it was just as stinging. Between Wedge and the B-Wings there's decent Anti-air firepower to engage and destroy incoming fighter balls. If Yavaris is going last, Wedge would double-tap any enemy that came in to engage the fighter ball and would be forced to shoot him. Every other squadron in this ensemble has min 3 blues, and if Toryn is present to help B-Wing bomber blues, she's certainly going to help every AA roll in that squadron ball. Also, every fighter in this formation ball has Jan Ors to assist- so Wedge has effectively 4 brace tokens to use- 2 of which Sloane can't touch (because Jan, not the attacked target, is holding them). This ace ball is pretty neat to run in a normal carrier build- you need to guarantee seven activations in a tight spot (A Pelta and maybe a flotilla?)- Yavaris allowing squadrons to double-tap at will is what makes this deadly. With the points left over in the above you can upgrade a B-Wing to Keyan, or drop Luke into that 20 point gap for another escort that ignores shields (but can still harm them, I think, from Norra).
  3. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    I concur. Things would feel a bit more balanced. Rebel fighters are good, robust things, but Yavaris takes thier supremacy to disgusting levels. I (and I imagine others, like Blail) would be less irked by Rebel squadrons if Yavaris didn't allow such abuse out of their squads. Maybe Nebs should be dropped to squadron 1. Double-tapping 2 squads feels exceptional. 3 is too much. Especially when Rebels also have an officer that lets you un-toggle friendly activation sliders!
  4. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    It's not this battle report is it? In the link that you couldn't provide? I'll need to review the game when it's not 3am to find out how Yavaris lost. Immediately I can see it's Fleet ambush- decreasing the space towards Yavaris and possibly pummeling on it as soon as turn 1, with an ISD. Depending on how you deployed it might also mean Yavaris can immediately get started on annihilating your forces. As you know it's more than just win-lose, it's also how you play the game. I want to analyze why things went the way they did. Well, last Worlds it seemed like everyone ended up with Rieekan to block Yavaris drops. The one VSD that showed up (and the only VSD to appear in a top event) was designed to wipe Raddus, as well. Raddus fell away on Day 2, replaced by a ton of Rieekan lists if I recall. Rieekan lists with Yavaris.
  5. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    Guys, before we go off into a tangent about how Yavaris and it's squadrons are broken, and the yes-no back and forth ensues about whether it's impossible to defeat or not, stop and consider what this thread is for. Gink put together a good list of different carriers for the Rebellion and it might be worth lending the discussion more to that point. If we want to use this thread as another pow-wow to discuss Yavaris, let's at least keep it in perspective with other Rebel carriers. Specifically we can also mention why/if other carrier builds listed in Gink's post are as potent as a Yavaris drop. I know it's my fault for bringing Yavaris' power overwhelming into this, but I think we also can't have a discussion on Rebel fighters and their capital ship handlers without acknolwedging how abnormally powerful Yavaris is to everything else in the game.
  6. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    I do think it's kind of the Biggs of Armada. That X-Wing pilot prevented the creation of so many defensive elite pilot tallent upgrades, because you didn't dare make an invincible, unkillable pilot that you were forced to shoot at every turn and couldn't kill. You can't move forward with creating squadrons without considering how Yavaris will make them broken. Rhymer was severely gimping Imperial fighter options until he was cut off at the knees. I'm still astounded Yavaris was allowed to continue with Fighter Coordination Teams single-handedly bypassing Yavaris' one restriction in a slot that is by no means competitive on a Nebulon. It's... kind of disgusting that it was allowed to persist. Even with the change, Yavaris is back to where it should be in power... but it's no less powerful, in my opinion. As soon as you got into long range you'd encounter the entire Yavaris-supported fighter ball (since Flight Commander allows that activation following Yavaris' move into medium range of her fighters)... which would proceed to shred the first target encountered to pieces (Norra-pumped B-Wings striking twice with BCC and Toryn support. Think about that). If you've played enough you can gauge the distance and hold your fighters out at range to be ready for Yavaris' 1-speed activation to be in place to double-tap the squadrons. Unless you can deliver raid tokens from outside the offensive range of a fighter cloud, that's not going to happen. Your Gauntlets would need a source of Intel to ignore the Yavaris fighter ball, and a ship would need to live long enough for Jyn to trigger. Even then, as Jabba points out, you bring a 3-point officer on a flotilla to solve the slicer tool problem. I've found that kitting up a fighter squadron to tackle a Yavaris fighter squadron means committing your entire points selection to anti-fighter forces. Granted, if you can pull it off you've gutted the yavaris list. But if you fail, then Yavaris still carries the day with a fighter ball swinging all-purpose fighters for less points that do more harm to a wider range of targets. It's not that simple. We've tried. This is worth quoting because Raddus enables something that can threaten Yavaris: You don't have to cross the board with Yavaris' nemesis. A yavaris threat ball works because it pounds something as soon as it enters long range and keeps the momentum to finish the largest targets on about two turns. With Raddus you have two things going: First you're bringing your heavy-hitter on one of multiple attack vectors, forcing the fighter ball to choose one or two of your 3+ small ships to destroy to prevent teleporting. Raddus can choose any one of them to bring in, so he WILL hyper in the heavy warship he needs. Second is you don't need to spend the turn under the guns of fighters. You can deploy, say, an MC75 at close range and angled in such a way to best double-arc the Nebulon's sides. If you can weather one turn of Yavaris' angry fighter gnats, your 75' (or other chosen heavy/other starship) activates and does everything it can to delete Yavaris in one turn. If it can't, you're going to have a second turn of Yavaris trying to delete your heavy... then it comes down to a race of whether the sheer bomber firepower can destroy a large ship before you get to sucker-punch Yavaris. All of this isn't taking into consideration any blockers the Yavaris defensive player would use. Flotillas, small ships, spread-out fighters... there are ways to try blocking a yavaris drop that a skilled Yavaris player would probably consider. Let's see it! And tell us how it was run- incidental hearsay isn't enough to convince me at any rate. I want to see some proof and see that list tried. I, for one, have been bludgeoned by defensive Yavaris lists as Empire for months. That was enough to convince me how rough that list is.
  7. Norsehound

    Latest Fling?

    Especially with the Rebellion having access to a hull-7 Escort that isn't too shabby on doing what it's supposed to do. I've decided to put experience where sentiment lies, and I'll be trying to run VSDs in various configurations to prove that they are still in the dire need of help I think they are. The verdict so far? they're too slow to contribute to the battle. Only one round of D-Caps damaging small ships has been their biggest contribution. Sloane-powered fighters out of a Quasar did so much more out of that match. In the match previous, they could not chase a pair of MC75s, and I blew the Dcaps on a border-hugging flotilla because it literally had no other target to shoot at the entire game.
  8. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    Is it a rampant out-of-control power unit? depends on whom you ask, and what experiences they have. Yavaris is a combination of precise cards (you need a token economy to abuse Yavaris' power, and the support nebulon only has squadron 1), but it is a potent combination. It's so potent it is, as I see it, a requirement for every run-of-the-mill-standard Rebel list, whether you're running a large fighter ball or some key ace squadrons. I don't feel the attack power out of fighter 4 on a MC80 is equal to the Fighter 2 out of Yavaris with squads that don't move. It comes down to that. Certainly lists that run lots of fighters and give a wide range for Yavaris double-tapping is potent. Potent enough, in my opinion, that it's the unmatched defensive list archetype. I still have not heard of a list beating, through engagement, a Yavaris Rieekan squadron ball dedicated to mass activations, a large number of aces and B-Wings, and the defensive bonus. As I understand it, this list died when players took a deeper bid against it to force it to go first. Or an opponent deployed in a corner and tried to get a late-game kill to defeat it. When I consider the ability leveraged out of Yavaris like that, and how hard that defensive list is to beat conceptually, it's hard to rate a "normal" carrier against how potent Yavaris is when mixed with a selection of excellent wide-ranged fighters. The reasons I would see about going to another carrier over Yavaris is: 1. Do you want a cheaper ship? The Flotilla combination and Hera look like good alternatives. 2. Do you want more mobility out of your list and abandon the B-Wing's supremacy in AA/Battery attack power? 3. Do you want to put your carrier in a position where a broadside does not mean instant death? In spite of the notes above about Yavaris (as I don't think Gink here completely highlights the significance of why Yavaris is so excellent), I do think this is an excellent guide to Rebel fighter options. Next time I bring Rebels to the tables I'd like to consult this so I'm not auto-defaulting to Yavaris. The Flotilla option looks great.
  9. Norsehound

    The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

    I wouldn't underestimate the potential from multiplying the attack potential out of ace squadrons. If squads are balanced with the understanding that they hit once, it's pretty potent to be the only mechanism to double the output of 2-3 squadrons and thier special effect. Things like nym or wedge or farlander. That's why I rate yavaris in it's own category- it does a thing that no other ship does, apart from a 10 point officer with one squadron. Yavaris is a potent card in an uncontested title as well, adar tallon lands in a competitive slot.
  10. Norsehound

    Victory Class Star Destroyer Only. Officer.

    It just doesn't like being shot at, by anything. Unlike flotillas it doesn't have a scatter to make all that damage just go away. Also? The front arc might as well be a neon archery target for every elven Archer in the rebellion. This is why, in comparison to the VSD when defending, the VSD is supposed to be more attractive. It's not much, but it's still a plus.
  11. I love them. The only reason I don't take them is when I'm doing something else with my list. My favorite archetype is taking three ARQ-CLs, each with Slaved Turrets and an Intel officer. Vader is the commander on one of them. Season with a couple of flotillas and a fighter group dedicated to protecting Jonus, and we're getting somewhere. The idea is to navigate for the first two turns to get a token and/or navigate into position, then concentrate fire to pummel your enemies with five red dice, accuracy guarantee, Intel Officer on backup, and Vader for re-rolls. Fighters mess up any fighter rushes trying to stop you and shield Jonus. Nearly topped a few tournaments with this list going all out. If you're not dedicated to scaling up ARQ firepower as I have, I find ARQs are good pressure units. They can maintain their distance while still being effective (what other Imperial ship can say that? Ok, maybe the interdictor...). If you're taking one, Giraffe's suggestions are good, though I'd take Needa with TRCs instead to use as a sniper. If you want a barebones ARQ my recommendation is a CL with DTTs or QBTs. DTTs are designed to help you sift out bad die results, so that can at least give you a better way to control the three reds. QBTs work by adding a blue if you're hanging around at speed 1, shooting at most targets. Take this one ship and go flanking with it, maybe start at speed 3 and then when it's in position drop to 2 and concentrate fire. The Navigation chart is really designed for circle-strafing around speed 2. This is probably where you want your ARQs, unless a fast enemy is coming in and you need to maintain your distance. An ARQ's biggest vulnerability (apart from no brace) is that wide rear arc. Still, in exchange the firing on the sides is pretty good for catching most enemies as you II click turn at the end of your movement.
  12. FFG's Star Wars is so much more than Armada. There's Rebellion, Imperial Assault, three lines of the RPG, a dice game, X-Wing, and now Legion. Since Lucasfilm doesn't have an entertainment marketing arm of their own, they're wise to entrust it to companies that have a good reputation for excellent games and that continue to deliver. I daresay all of FFG's games for Star Wars have been well received... the LCG may have been discontinued for reasons we couldn't know (winding up for a new product? Destiny basically does the same thing?). I'd regret it so much if Armada was discontinued, because aside from Rebellion this has been the most satisfying list-building tabletop minis game I've enjoyed. And I still think there's a lot of room to expand for new mechanics, new ships... it would be premature to discontinue it at this point.
  13. Yavaris should have been nerfed along with Rieekan and Rhymer. That it got away for so long without being addressed is upsetting- especially as we had one player in the local meta abusing this to frustrating degrees of second-player objective farming camping. Empire has to pay for two squadrons to get what the rebels get out of one. Yavaris is fantastic because it magnifies already good Rebel fighters into grotesque attack potential. Rebels don't need large balls of fighters to do what they need to- about the only place the Empire edges out are TIE Interceptors being better generic fighter killers than any generic in the Rebel lineup. If Empire had a fighter whose only purpose is to be a two-dice ship-activated bomber then we'd probably see more competitive bomber lists. Nothing's really taken the place of the old Rhymerballs since he got FAQ'ed... probably because the only squadron released since the change were the Gauntlets. Maybe if such a hypothetical squad was speed 3, VSD Corruptor might have a purpose, along with AFFM in combination.
  14. Maybe a lot of effort's gone into Legion and X-Wing because they are (or are expected to be) the great big cash grabs for FFG in the coming years. Armada might have been the next thing to challenge Warhammer's ilk with grand table top strategy games but... it just didn't click. Star Wars isn't associated with big spaceship combat games- more people identify with stormtrooper shootouts with the main heroes and dynamic Battle-of-yavin or battle-of-endor starfighter triumphs. That said we are a community willing to land $40-$50 per unit and buy in multiples... so there is that. Thing is, we don't buy enough of that. Legion's modeling scene will entice hobbygoers to buy the models for dioramas, and somehow a hobby following sprang up around X-Wing because it's the only thing doing what it does at that scale, so those two lines will be selling a lot for reasons other than the game. Personally I hope Armada stays around for a long while because I enjoy the depth and complexity of the game, and the miniatures are beautiful and unparalleled by just about anything else. The reason Mel's spaceships are as popular as they are is because people want those ships in this game. And I'm here because I want to do something fun with my minis instead of keeping them docked on the shelf collecting dust.
  15. Norsehound

    Victory Class Star Destroyer Only. Officer.

    I was thinking about Brunsen on a second VSD (tua goes on the first). In terms of damage elimination she has Needa's advantage of making a die go away like an evade but without sacrificing one of the redirects. It would have been better if she wasn't an exhaust, or if there was another mechanism to un-exhaust her other than the Interdictor title. But in terms of what you can do defensively, Tua-Brusen with 7th fleet titles on both might be worth experimenting with... though you are limited to flying them close together. Brunsen has to go presumably inside the turn to hook around dense asteroids while Tua is riding a D-Cap destroyer for flanking.
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