Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About player1509572

  • Rank

Contact Methods

  • AIM
  • MSN
  • Website URL
  • ICQ
  • Yahoo
  • Skype

Profile Information

  • Location
    , Skane, Sweden
  1. It only triggers psychic phenomena IF the original activation roll caused psychic phenomena (by either rolling doubles or being pushed), to begin with. But yes, if you roll perils both times and your psychic for some reason lacks any ability that lets him modify it, such as favored of the warp, you can cause Perils. So, if you for some reason feel the burning need to sustain a protean form activation that triggered psychic phenomena, Rez is your best friend.
  2. Isn't everyone not a null considered to have some level, even if far too low to be usable, of psychic potential? We're dealing with controlling the Immaterium here, and the fact that Psykers can use their rating certainly does more to imply its psychic in nature than the fact that anyone willing to give themselves to the Dark Gods can do the ritual [mark of tzeench makes you a psyker if you weren't one, even]. By that logic, should a character be allowed to apply Strong-minded to resisting persuasion tests, because someone with some smidgeon of psychic potential is trying to influence their mind? And, furthermore, if this is is so psychic in nature as to count as a psychic power, why can Khorne-aligned people do it? You know, the guys who by the rules lose ALL psychic powers and potential when they align to Khorne? If a Daemonic Mastery test counted as a psychic power for the purpose of the rules, Khorne-aligned characters would not be able to do them. No, trying to finagle resistance and strong-minded into applying to Daemonic mastery tests seems to stretch it far too much for me. You'd reason that if they were meant to make it harder to command those Daemons, it would be explicitly mentioned somewhere. A bigger question is why the Daemon doesn't get to add it, but chances are that was either left out because most daemons aren't psykers and they forgot you can summon more than nurglings while writing, OR because that would make some of them impossible for those not specifically dedicated to the act. Or maybe because they didn't want Daemons to add their psy rating to the test. We can guess the motivations of the developers all we want, but at the end of the day you don't, by the rules of the book. Furthermore, it wouldn't benefit the Lord of Change even if you did. He doesn't actually have a psy rating. He has a special ability that lets him use psychic powers with an effective psy rating of 9, but he lacks the psy rating talent and an actual psy rating. The limitation on tests I'm seeing is "final". You add up all that stuff together: Psy rating, marks, etc, and the final mod is "stat +/- 60". It makes sense that you wouldn't need a high binding if you're marked by the god: That's as friendly as things get, and there's little they can do if you know its true name. Of course in ideal conditions you've got an easy time dealing with it. Non-Tzeench aligned folks don't have it quite as cheap or easy, but if you know a daemon's true name and you're good buddies with its God, you've kind of got an 'in'. The mark helps greatly if you're otherwise weaker; like not a psyker or dealing with daemons of great infamy, as any Greater oughta have really, as its the final total that's +/- 60. "Would be useless" aside, just as problematic is the idea that the most willful and powerful of daemons are stuck in there permanently. At least without consistently spending an infamy point every time you might fail if the LoC has 21 to test against… though it ain't bloody likely if you're the one who put it in there in the first place, obviously. Yet on that table listing the modifiers there is mentioned neither psy rating nor binding strength. And with no overarching rule capping modifiers to 60, you're conjecturing here. And it makes just as much sense that a master psyker with immense experience dealing with daemons, the favor of Tzeentch and unrivaled sorcerous potential would be far more capable of binding a daemon than a middling psyker with passing experience in dealing with daemons, even if they both have the mark of Tzeentch. As an aside, you don't apply the Daemon's infamy on Daemonic tests either, just the test to create a daemon weapon. The one that isn't opposed. What I do think, though, is that just like there's nothing telling us what "a single standard type of ammunition is" despite it being perfectly possible for grenade and missile launchers to be the weapon in question, no one thought to see how much they could break the mastery tests [which when you look at it are obviously intended to be nothing but "Daemon WP -5*binding strength" once in the weapon, though obviously this is not the end result by having said 'daemonic mastery test'] by letting every aspect of the original summoning get used instead. Perhaps a quick rewording of the rules to better account for all the variables would be needed? I don't think these tests are that broken. So yeah, a decently competent psyker built to deal with the warp and with the mark of Tzeentch can bind greater daemons of Tzeentch into Daemon weapons. It still costs him 2d5 corruption points, two lengthy rituals, a couple of human sacrifices etc and at the end of the day he gets a scary gun or killstick. Fair trade I say. Now, if you wanna break daemon weapons, the key there is getting far less binding strength so you get to lather on qualities, and then just sustain Protean form all day and put it all in unnatural Willpower. You become just as impossible to beat in the mastery test, but you got a blade oozing with psychic death and all manner of bling. Or, you know, you could just skip that whole daemon weapon thing and hit someone with a regular force weapon for 10d10 or more points worth of no soak damage.
  3. Kiton said: While its a risk, I see little reason why the Daemon, if it wishes to not be weaponized, would not use its abilities to its fullest. Notably, Resist Psy and Strong-minded are not found on a Great Unclean one or most other daemons. The Daemonic mastery test is certainly psy/sorcery in nature, as you get to add +5 x psy rating to the mastery test, and Page 229 notes that the ritual IS modified by the target's Daemonic Presence "and other pertinent factors". Its true that skill mastery lets you "not roll", but opposed tests go by how many DoS/DoF you have over the other, so at least we should be verifying the LoC's own, for purposes of the difference between the two. This is where strong-minded and their effective Psy Rating 9[so +45] would come in handy. Tables aside, which in the case of summoning/binding, 201 and 229 state at the top of the tables that their maximums are +/- 60 outright rather than only implying, there's 241. Page 241, though in the combat chapter, states: "If a situation calls for two or more bonuses or penalties, simply combine all modifiers together and apply the total to the appropriate Characteristic. The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60. When adjudicating difficulty, common sense should prevail. Regardless of the usual limits on test penalties, some actions are simply impossible" Personally, I'm just trying to figure out if everything went fubar for the daemon's rolls[very unlikely but certainly possible; anyone can roll a 100 sometimes, even two despite dumping infamy on there], or if the player was just led to believe that was the case. The Daemonic mastery test might be sorcerous in nature, but it is not a psychic power, so Resistance (psychic powers) is questionable. it is most assuredly not a mind-affecting power, so Strong minded does not apply. In addition, the fact that Daemonic mastery tests can be performed by anyone and is a pure willpower on willpower test further casts the notion that it's in any way psychic in origin into doubt. After all, this is the very same test everyone, from a Tzeentch Socerer to a Khorne Berserker, make as soon as they pick up a Daemonic weapon. Furthermore, the text on pg 229 says "If the summoner is a psyker, he may add a +5 bonus to his test for every point of Psy Rating he has." This would imply the Daemon does not. So that +45 is out the window for the Daemon. So let's do the math. Assume the psyker is a decent psyker of psy rating 5 and a willpower of 50. He's now up to 75. He's also Aligned to and has the Mark of Tzeentch. That's +20 and +30 respectively. 125. Assuming he has an appropriate sacrifice, he's now up to 135 vs the Daemon's 90. A strong advantage, even without him spending infamy etc for the test. Assuming he's not 20 meters away from the Daemon (not that hard to achieve) He's brought down to 115. Give the Daemon resistance and he's now down to 105. He's got 15 on the Daemon. A less surefire bet, but even in this daemon benefiting situation, he's got a small advantage on the Daemon. If he's spent some of his (cheap) advances on willpower or has a higher psy rating (With the Mark of Tzeentch and being human, he's bought 1 level of psy rating so far) then his lead increases further. And this is without the sorcerer doing anything in his favor. For one, if he's gonna be that close to the Daemon, why not throw up Host of Fiends, one of the cheapest powers in the game? Now he just increased his lead by 10 points, assuming he's not pushing or boon of Tzeentching it. And hey, he's Tzeentch aligned, so why not drag some useless slaves into the room and psyphon them (another cheap power). Hurl that around once or twice, and assuming average damage rolls, he gets unnatural willpower +4, for another 2 DoS of success guaranteed. That would lower the Host of Fiends a bit, unless he pushed or booned it. So now it's 105+2 DoS versus 80. And that's with a pretty average psyker, tbh. You could reasonably achieve this within 8 or 9 sessions, tbh. Bring up a real psychic powerhouse, and this stops even being a contest. Then we get into the actual Forbidden Lore (Daemonology) test to bind the daemon. This is not an opposed test. This is where he spent the infamy and used skill mastery. The Daemon got it's chance to oppose him in the Daemonic Mastery. Now, the best it's attempt to resist him can do is give him -30 on the test he's already stacking so many positive modifiers on it's not even funny. As for the +60 to -60 modifier, those are listed on specific tables. So once the weapon is built, the user would use the table on 229 table to pick the proper modifiers, up to +60 or -60. And THEN apply the binding strength and psy rating. If not, a binding strength beyond 2 would be useless on a weapon wielded by anyone with the proper mark, which strikes me as improbable. And a high powered psyker would get no benefit from the mark, which is equally odd. So, yeah, it still seems quite plausible that a Greater Daemon could be bound by a competent psyker. Now, the Master of Plotters power could throw a wrench into things. That said, I don't see how a plan could apply to a contest of wills like that, but whatever. Even then, the Heretic could hurl 2 or more infamy points into 1d5 extra DoS per point to counter that. And this is with a pretty middling psyker. So yeah, doable. Not super easy, but the psyker in general has an advantage.
  4. Kiton said: I'm wondering how it got to the point where you could bind that daemon though. A Lord of Change would be rather unlikely not to know, or quickly figure out what's going on. Daemonic Presence for -20WP and Fear 4 certainly make an angry hostile Lord of Change annoying to try and deal with, but more importantly, if you rolled a 01 so that you'd actually GET your int bonus' worth and then some out of the skill, why didn't he make you reroll with Weaver of Fates? Also I'm wondering if Strong-minded and psychic resistance shouldn't be applying, in this case, to attempts to bind them: even if using int base on the ritual, you're performing sorcery. That's some serious chances to resist, and they get plenty of DoS as well. One thing though: -80 isn't possible. Tests are always -60 to +60. It can add up to -80 for purposes of trying to get bonuses to cancel all that out, but the test will always just be at -60 at worst. That Lord of Change will be rolling mastery against 21, not 01. He probably loses the ability to force you to spend infamy and reroll at that point however though. Presumably, the daemonic mastery tests prevent it from acting against you. And IIRC they never state how long it takes to actually bind a daemon into a daemon weapon in the first place, so quite possibly they appear and get bound within less than a single round. The -20 could also be sidestepped by being 20+ meters from it, which may not be impossible either. As for the "you rolled 01" well, he can't be forced to reroll. Even assuming that using skill mastery for an automatic success is considered a roll in the first place, you can only spend infamy to reroll failed tests, and he didn't fail it. Ergo, the Daemon can't make him spend infamy to reroll it. As for Strong-minded and Psychic resistance, I wouldn't apply them. Daemons being boundable is something that's inherent to their nature and existence, and I don't think them being able to shrug off doombolts and dominate should go towards being able to ignore one of the fundamental risks of their existance. EDIT: Oh, and for the modifier thing, do you have a pg reference for that? I know the Difficulty table lists actions from +60 to -60, but that's for difficulty, not modifiers.
  5. Cryhavok said: Terraneaux said: Cryhavok said: No, more like, " If to are going to do something impressive, its going to be impressive, not just simply handed to you." Remember, he didnt just reduce the modifiers to 0, he got 16 degrees of success, making the binding strength sixteen and making a greater deamon incapable of resisting. Not I mentioned I wasnt sure on some of the rules, but, by the rules he would not have had that many assistants adding to his roll. Besides does assistance add +10 or add degrees of success? If it is +10, then bypassing the roll with mastery would bypass the assistance as well. Each assistant on a task effective gives +10 (by lowering the difficulty by one step) and also grants one additional DoS if the test is successful (Core rulebook p. 38). Of course, you're limited to two assistants in most cases. OP said 'a few' so assuming he's got two assistants, he's got 2+ Int bonus intial degrees of success (which could easily be like 8 if he's got cranial implants or demon organs). Add another one for the unnatural 2 for Cranial Implants, and then roll a 5 on that d5 you get for the infamy point, and you're at 16 DoS completely legit. Of course, you've just made a greater demon into a demon weapon with only one ability, which kind of defeats the point. However, the particulars of the circumstance that you replied aren't really that important, but your endorsement of punishing game mechanic alteration against a character trying to create a powerful demon weapon is. The assistance rules exist for a reason, so that a chaos-worshipping magus can have his expendable, snivelling cultists help him with this kind of stuff. The insistance that each member of a ritual have to complete the separate parts of a ritual on their own smacks of a knee-jerk reaction nerf without the understanding of how the mechanics involved actually work, as it makes having assistants on a task like this functionally useless. 1- Okay looked it up, I see the assistance stff, I see the into to DoS, cranial implants makes it more reasonable. I dont see where the d5 roll comes in. Please point me to that in the book. And thanks for the assistance page number. 2- The part of the post you are refering to is referancing what I would do without the rules involved, because I did not know them. Me, and any GM I have played with, would follow the rules as long as they are clear, which these ones are now that Ive found them. I stand by my point that being able to do that to a greater deamon is rediculous though. If it was that easy, Q'Sal and the hallows would be stock full of ultra bound greater deamons. I would also like to point out that the player in question usdd the summon lesser deamon rules rather than the summon greater deamon rules. The 1d5 extra dos comes from the ability for Tzeentch-aligned characters to spend an infamy point for an additional 1d5 DoS on any test. And I don't see how the ability for a massively skilled (He has Skill Mastery for Forbidden Lore, guy's a ******* master) sorcerer to bind a greater Daemon in any way says Q'sal should be full of 'em. First of all, Q'sal, while big on magic, is probably not full to the brim of sorcerers THAT capable. Even if it was, Greater Daemons are volatile, dangerous entities, and many would probably be unwilling to gamble the risk of pissing one off for the ability to get a rather impressive sword. And, even assuming they were, Greater Daemons are also long-lived, vindictive bastards with long memories. So, in the end, Q'sal's mightiest sorcerers would have to dedicate significant resources, risk massive danger and the eternal hatred and rage of a Greater Daemon in exchange for a sword that's kinda better than any other sword. Which I'm sure they'll have a lot of use for on the planet that they rule and that's full of people that do their fighting for them while they explore dark sorcerous mysteries. As for the wrong ritual, the poster has already made it clear they didn't have the right book, so they rightly made something up instead of waiting around to do something because FFG hadn't gotten around to publishing the rules for it yet. All in all, pretty mild work for what a dedicated Tzeentchian bastard can do. Once you reach the mid-game and higher, a Tzeentch Psyker can walk around with unnatural willpower +20 without much issue, for more or less the entire day, every day. Which, for a psyker, is helluva lot scarier than having a +8 damage force sword. Hell, get that guy a regular force sword and he's outdoing the daemon by about 8d10's worth of armor and toughness bypassing death.
  6. The prophet of Tzeentch in the core book adventure also continues using psychic powers while insubstantial through flicker. However, he changes to exclusively using Tzeentchian mind-control, so you feel it makes it more fair, one could take the stance that any physical effect powers (TK, direct damage etc) can't be used. That said, ask yourself this: how many of your pc's could actually strike against an Insubstantial enemy? This is, IIRC, exclusively something psykers and people with Daemon weapons can do. A fight against an untouchable opponent you can't harm isn't exactly fun. From experience, a Tzeentchian Space Marine Psyker with a good spread of powers and Flicker is a nightmare to stop for anything but another psyker, and a pretty **** scary one even for them.
  7. Yeah, things become very missable when you don't put them next to the relevant bits. That said, that means that FFG has had two entire books with pre-aligned archetypes that, if played until the next corruption checkpoint with NO change in their advancements, revert to unaligned. That's pretty **** sad.
  8. Terraneaux said: Karlkrlarsson said: Terraneaux said:My point is that there is no deevolution to unaligned. Your Example berzerker starts alligned with Khorne. When he reaches a threshold he checks if he has become aligned with any power. If he doesn't, he remains alugned with Khorne. I find nothing that this us supported by the rules. That's not how checking alignment at a corruption threshold works. When you hit a corruption threshold, if you do not have 5 or more advances more of one god than any other, you become unaligned. Actually, not really. Perhaps that was the intent, but the book doesn't say that. "Whenever a Heretic earns 10 Corruption Points (in other words, when they hit the thresholds of 10, 20, 30, and soforth), they check Alignment. This means they compare how many Advancements they have purchased that are affiliated with each Chaos Power. If they have changed Alignment (by having five more advancements dedicated to any one Chaos Power than any other), then they switch their Alignment to the God in question." pg 75. You only change alignment if you have 5 more advances to any other god. You do not change if you No Longer have 5 more than any other god, nor can you actually ever return to being unaligned. You can only switch into the good graces of another god, and it's already made clear that unaligned is not a god, and that it's advances are not tallied for the purposes of Alignment. So yeah. While Advanced archetypes not listing how many (if any) of their purchases count towards a Mark is problematic, for the purpose of alignment it isn't. If none of the advancements gotten during chargen count for the purposes of alignment, then any advanced archetype will stay aligned until they purchase 5 more advances towards any other god, without purchasing anything to counter-balance that.
  9. Actually, no, he is correct. As per pg 78, having 20 advances for a god, and 5 more for them than any other, is indeed enough to score you the mark of a god. Or you could roll it on the god-specific tables, possibly allowing you access to it earlier at the cost of another possible mutation. So yes, there's a "surefire" way of gaining a mark. That said, 20 god-specific advances is a fair chunk of xp for most characters, and many might not find 20 advances they actually consider worthwhile the xp.
  10. crisaron said: DM: You want a terminator armor at your level of power? A.k.a. LVL 1 wa PLayer: YESSSSsssss…. my pracious!!!! DM : OK Player: WOOT my PRECIOUSssss!!!!! DM: as you open the door there is a mighty wariror of khorne with a deamonic power axe and a nasty mastercrafted demaonic possessed plasma pitol, yelling"Mine! the Gods said it could be mine!!! I only need to take your head off!" Player: … DM : Well a terminator armor is like a relic right? and that guy as been wanting one for a while… if all of you guys really put your self into it you can win it… Player 2 : I look around. DM : Well that is the problem, you see an army of champions runnign up the hilll yelling "No its mine!!!!", "Mine"… PLayer: but it's mine!!! DM: The gods gave you a relic can you hold on to it? PLayer: I quit DM: terminator armor problem solved… I'd want to play in that game. I'd never have to fight a well armored opponent in my life. I just tell people he has Terminator armor and apparently Khorne berserkers with Daemonic Power Weapons AND Daemonic Plasma Weapons come and kill him for me… Because those things ******* grow on trees.
  11. It's lying, so anything a really good liar could convince you was true. Now, I doubt even the greatest conman in the world could convince you you're a potted plant. Just use common sense, really. Possibly eering on the side of yes, in case of gray zones and really good Apostates.
  12. Well, ask your GM not to use highly difficult encounters, for one thing. Mid-level Deathwatch is high-level Black Crusade, to put it mildly. Deathwatch is a game for all space marine groups of significantly higher power than their BC equivalents. And capping the Orks to RT style progression is not only undermining one of the biggest strengths BC characters have, but also holding them back to the RT levels of power, which is behind even BC by a small margin. I mean, how does he define "earlier than the would have"? To me, it seems he's using excessively difficult challenges comboed with a somewhat overly harsh restriction on the Orcs in your group. So just talk to him. Tell him you feel the game is excessively difficult and ask him to scale it down. You're all adults, so just discuss your problems. But if for some reason everyone want to try and play it like it's about winning, here's a mean old trick for a psyker or sorcerer to pull. And I do mean mean. This is full on rules lawyering dirty, while inarguably utterly legal. Combo Abhorrent ward and Host of Fiends. An xp investment of 500, so rather affordable. Push both and put them up. If possible, find any way to get fear ratings in play, for both you and your allies. Have the Orc's go commando, use infamy to get a mutation, use a psychic power. Whatever. Now, any time someone fails a willpower save within 20 or so meters of your psyker, they get 1d5 points of Corruption PER DEGREE OF FAILURE. They also get 2x the psy rating of Host of Fiends as a penalty to all their willpower tests. Any time they try and shoot your psyker, they must suceed at a willpower test at -5x the psy rating of Abhorrent Ward. Which, obviously, gets the Host of Fiends penalty as well. Fear tests are also willpower based. now note, as soon as any minor NPC (debatory term, but anyone without a name is a good baseline, so most enemies you face) gets 10, they are instantly killed, automatically, and turned into a harmless chaos spawn. PG 289. This is not listed as an optional rule. Obviously, at psy rating 4 this is good. Pushed to 7, which is easily done, that's 6 each. That's a penalty of -42 on the abhorrent ward test. Add in anything and everything that provokes a willpower test, preferably with a penalty. Use Force weapons, hallucinogen grenades, anything you can get. With that, even npc's that get to go to a 100 can be brought down pretty quick. Not to mention that having violent mutations happen to you is bound to be problematic, unless he rules that it happens instantly without pain and that they instantly adapt, but that's a bit of a stretch for the logic.
  13. Yes, you can sustain a pushed power, and it is sustained at the psy rating it was cast with. Just like you can sustain a fettered one. It's a pretty common tactic for things such as telekinetic armor or warptime to simply push it once and then maintain it at a higher rating. However, do keep in mind that sustaining multiple powers lowers the psy rating of ALL sustained powers by 1 for each power. Likewise, even instant effect powers have their psy rating decreased while a power is sustained. Likewise, you increase all your psychic phenomena rolls when sustaining multiple powers, so it's not a risk free endeavor. As for psy rating, it is added at the moment, however the maximum psy rating one may have is most likely 10. While the blurb on psy rating could be read to suggest otherwise, it does list the maximum psy rating as 10.It's certainly the ruling I would make. A Tzeentchian sorcerer can already push far beyond that with clever use of Boon of Tzeentch and other powers, and doesn't need further help.
  14. I'll take "Some Imperium scientists do not believe the Obliterator virus exists because they think it's unworkable" as less than absolute proof. As for Obliterators as starting archetypes, Tome of Fate's "advanced" archetypes don't strike me as out of line with an Obliterator. After all, at least in the old rules for the Obliterator virus, you had to absorb a weapon to get it, so they'd only get access to every heavy weapon in the game for free insofar as they could get their fleshy hands on it. Lasgun hands seem to be about par for Bolt of Change to me.
  15. Terminator armor isn't that big a deal, really. The extra AP it offers is rather handily offset by the lowered movement and reduced dodge it comes with, and while the ability to wield certain weapons more effectively is nice, that's only a good thing if you got the weapons, which you probably don't. And even if you do, still not that terrible.
  • Create New...