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ExcelsiorH

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  1. So I got my copy of D2 last night and got a chance to read through all the quests - something our party of heroes didn't have a chance to do before starting the campaign. Seems like we just picked bad and got 3 quests that were pretty similar in structure, making the playstyle stale, frustrating, and boring. But looking forward at our interlude (knowing which it will be) and the Act 2 quests available to us - I'm very excited. I like that there's a lot more variety coming up, so I think we'll see a change of tactics too.
  2. Losman2001 said: Well your thief, instead of running for treasures as you stated, could be chasing down and killing the 2 hp goblin archers. Surely he could put out enough damage for that. If you were using fatigue to move grisban (who plenty of people stated is pretty awful due to his low movement speed), the overlord could not legally use tripwire, as that requires a move action, not just a move. I would say use grisban and your runemaster as your top damage dealers to clear out the damage soaking blockers, and the thief and spiritspeaker to run around and chase the objective chasers. I would also recommend killing the objective seekers instead of running around and wasting precious actions on searching if your party is having their tail end handed to them that quickly. You don't have time to waste on a search, and can do that after you are no longer in danger of losing. If you were to go back and change your party, I would recommend tossing grisban, use syndrael instead, toss your hobbit for jain, and use the wildlander class. Switch runemaster for a necromancer for extra damage. I think your party composition is pretty slow and it is hurting your overall movement, which may be contributing to the overlord winning anything that has to do with race to win. Well I would like to try out other class/party set ups - this was our first campaign so we were just winging it. Just so much time investment to get up to speed and learn all the classes, compared to how often we can play. Maybe my dice rolls suck, but I found even the goblins weren't worth going after with the thief because 1dmg was usually my average output - I very early on gave up on combat with my character after several rolls of no damage getting through. So the strategy became run around and search to get the money to try and upgrade for the next quest and maybe catch up to the overlord in progress. I'll stop complaining about the classes - since that's not really the point of this thread - until we try more of them. But it does seem confirmed that with the right (or wrong) hero party make up choices and just a small number of bad dice rolls on combat, that the OL can pretty much just block and run to victory on the quests we played. Guess I'm just not a fan of that play style so far - I don't feel like a hero conquering a dungeon. I'm hoping there's more variety in the encounter design for act 2… Certainly a change coming over from D1 of what dice rolls will mean, and how you progress through and encounter - still learning it all. But boy has it been frustrating experience so far. Surprisingly though, everyone seems willing to keep trying!
  3. Losman2001 said: I wouldn't even consider it cheap rules exploit. I think the overlord played very well, while the heroes didn't. OP, if i were you I would try all the problem scenarios again, play with the same heroes and have the overlord use the same tactics, except this time, make judicial use of two attacks plus fatigue move to kill off any would be blockers and have your more nimble ranged characers run past the hole made by your battling heroes to catch the objective runners of the overlord. Also, make sure to use whatever heroic feats you can if it will give you the advantage. I honestly just think that the heroes were outplayed by the overlord, and not that this is an unbeatable situation. Use fatigue, make a hole, and RUN to catch the monsters threatening to win objectives. If you guys still fail, then maybe there is an inherent flaw in the game. We did make judicial use of two attacks and fatigue moves - the problem was damage output. Class 1: Thief (hobbit) - very low damage with no tricks, lucky to damage/kill anything after 2 attacks. Ended up not doing combat at all and just running around for treasures Class 2: Knight (dwarf) - slow movement, kept getting trip lined. Usually only effective using the triple attack feat for the first move to try and clear out the entrance. Most of the time, just couldn't be in range to damage. Class 3: Runemaster - effective ranged unit, was our damage dealer Class 4: Spirit Mender - melee range (with reach), powerful skills though and got really effective once given a ranged weapon (3rd quest). So which of our 'nimble ranged' units would you suggest run through to catch the OL runners?
  4. lucaster said: I've been following this discussion an others with vivid interest, and it seems to me that most of the problems related to cheap rule exploiting are caused by an excess of metagaming. Could you clarify what that means? I'm assuming you mean, the drive to win the campaign/quest and get the rewards is causing both sides to try and over game it? If so - I agree. The OL having a seperate win condition from the heroes, along with their own rewards, puts both sides in to competition - over different things. One of our hero players put it best. "I want to dungeon crawl to kill monsters and fight bosses, not to watch the OL game the system, have no interest in combat, while running away with my tomatoes that I couldn't get to in time". It is a serious change in play/style from D1. Yes we made assumptions about the play that screwed us early on, while the OL caught on faster. But at the end of the day, it sounds like this is how D2 plays now and it will take a few campaigns to figure out how to counter the 'block the hall' strategy.
  5. And yes, water does take 2 to move - I'd have to look at the map again. but from the closest spawn point in the goblin room to the water was I believe 7 squares, 8+9 to step in water, 10 to be on far side.
  6. he was using traps to box the warrior in - with an awareness of 1 the warrior was almost guaranteed to fail. Which ended their movement. Couple that with the warrior (dwarf) only having 3 movement, and the warrior was always just too far behind to be useful.
  7. Antistone said: Jonke75 said: Sounds mostly like a case of rule abusing play from the OL… Turning monsters sideways to block more and delay players… Says more about your OL then it does about the system it self. Turning sideways? That clever bastard! I really don't think that counts as abusing rules. That seems pretty solidly in the realm of "obvious implications" to me. Also, if you think that the existence of horribly abusable loopholes rules doesn't say anything about the system, I think you've got some pretty skewed standards. I'm of the same mindset - if the rules allow it, you can't hate on someone for using it.
  8. KristoffStark said: First Blood: I'm kind of shocked, actually. Every time I've done this Quest, the Heroes have positioned themselves so that the Ettin(s) cannot get out of the tile they start on, except perhaps to get to the tile the Heroes come in to, which isn't helpful. They then proceed to largely cut down Goblins (2 or three of them on turn 1), with a ranged guy near or in the water to handle those who get by. A double move from the most forward position on their spawn tile doesn't even get them around the corner in the water. I've never gotten more than two goblins off the map. All in all, I can't help but wonder what you heroes are doing with your first turns. If there are four of you (which is what it sounds like), concentrated attack power should be able to clear out Monster blockages pretty quickly. You talk about weak Act 1 weapons, but both warriors (and the reanimate) start with blue+red weapons, which can deal out a large amount of damage, especially if the hero takes a couple fatigue to move so he can attack twice. So I'll have to look at the quest book more closely when my copy shows up - but in First Blood, from the spawn point our OL was able to run the goblins 10 squares at the end of first turn, which for him was enough to get them on the dry side of the water. So possibly he spawned them in the wrong place? We did win this quest though, with 4 goblins escaped. As for our heroes - we didn't have the necromancer in the party, so that's 1 less round of attacks with no familiar. And I was a theif, which I was lucky to do 3 damage with (blue + yellow with no surge abilities). And our warrior could do damage, if the OL didn't keep trapping them and proventing them from getting in combat range - I think our warrior had the worst experience, just constantly getting trapped and dark charmed and always maxed on fatigue. As I said, our first round was usually an all out on the stuff right in front of us - if it was small units we usually managed to make a hole but were still relatively jammed up in the doorway at the end of turn 1 while the OL had moved his units halfway across the map. If he blocked us with bigger monsters, we just kind of sat there plinked at it with our 3 heroes that could do relatively good damage - while watching the OL roll 2 grey defense and negating most of it.
  9. wish i could find an edit button. Correction on the Masquerade - party member corrected me. We lost at the end of turn 3 (not 2) Turn 1: got jammed up in entrance, my double miss caused line of sight issues for casters behind us so we barely got out of the entrance Turn 2: all of the villagers (4/4) were found - 2 were in room with goblins(?), 1 was in hallway next to exit, our healer found 1 in our starting room Turn 3: we move our villager to safety, OL moves other 3 out the exit So not a total failure - but for our first act 1 encounter, it left us with a feeling of 'something seems broken' - so we scoured the rules about spawning, LOS, movement blocking, monster movment, etc… and couldn't find anything we did wrong. Just really bad luck and race condition that one side couldn't over come… But as we played more encounters, we saw this same trend coming around again. Both sides are racing to different goals, if the heroes trip up anything (missed attack, poor damage, etc…) then the OL can surge ahead with his monsters moving twice, and the heroes are unable to keep up. Other things our OL did - and I can't fault him for, as the are tools he was provided to try and win: * Block hallways/entrance completely with big monsters * Always pick the biggest monster with most defense dice for open group (he never cared about attacking us - since it was counter productive to his victory goals) * Always used his OL card traps on our warrior to keep them from moving, because their awareness is 1 - so our warrior would declare a move, take one step, trapped, end movement. * Re-enforce with the biggest monster possible, run (move + move) to blocking position as fast as possible The encounters we played though all had the same 'race' setup, so the more we played the more demoralizing it got - we could totally predict exactly how the OL was going to play each map, "so you're going to block us and run again, huh?" I think we definately played 1 quest too long - things got mean by the 4th quest. But when both sides have rewards for winning, it seems like the OL is just going to devolve in to what ours did - win by any means.
  10. Losman2001 said: I can't help but wonder what your heroes are doing throughout all this. Who is going first? Especially in your masquerade ball example, did the heroes not kill a single monster to lose on turn two? Something just seems really awful about your hero players strategies. Either that or your overlord is just extremely lucky and gifted. Our OL just games it - his goal isn't to kill us, so he just blocks us with the biggest amount of stuff he can. In the Masquerade on turn 1 I know I had a double miss on my first 2 attacks (wasted turn for me), and everyone else spent their first turn either double attacking or attack + move. So we were still all jammed up in the entrance, and on the OL turn he revealed 6 guests and found all 4 villiages Note: he started pretty much on top of 6 of the 8 guests, only 2 were in a room he didn't have monsters in - but they weren't villagers. So we literally sat there after 1 round going, "we can't win this". We plucked away at the zombies in our room, but since this was our first quest choice after first blood we still all had start gear and did crap damage and couldn't kill anything with a villager that round. OL turn, he moved and won, game over! To the comments about the OL being too nasty - we had this debate a lot on D1, what is the OL goal? is the goal to make the players have fun as a good host? or to win? Well since his victory conditions are completely opposite to the players goals, it's a hard question to answer. Since his goal was always to do something before we could stop him, I think he was playing the game right by picking an open group with the biggest area and highest defense to just block us off. But his victory = our complete lack of enjoyment. We pulled the same tactic on him in fat goblin, by just letting him find the guy, then we blocked up the hallway and killed his LT who was trying to escape with the hostage. Our OL response, "****, that really isn't fun is it?" From what it sounds like though, we're not missing any rules about spawning or monster movement - which is a shame.
  11. Yea, we know all about the moving rules, but if the OL parks a large monster in a hallway it blocks it completely (only 2 spaces wide). Our OL is a master of blocking pathways…. Did it all the time in D1 too. And it usually took us 2 full founds to cut down a master shadow dragon or ettin - 1 of our classes were lucky if they could do 1 damage on with their skills/items (thief) and the other 3 usually just nicked 2-3 (Needing 9 to kill the dragon) while dealing with moving and keeping LOS clear by not blocking other heroes out (2 heroes block LOS in hallway if right up against large monster in same hallway).. We just got jammed up in hallways, playing the attack-attack-fatigue move to clear line of sight game while the OL safely moved all his stuff on the other side - doing 2x moves All the time to rush through to the victory condition. We could tell from the first turn, every encounter, if we even had a chance…. Which 5 out of 7 encounters we did not…
  12. Sorry - forgot one other option: do we heroes just not play correctly? We were rushing as hard as we could - diving in to each fight as fast and hard as possible. We manged health and fatigue fine (we think) with only a few (4?) knockdowns through all 4 quests. We just couldn't put out damage fast enough to cut through the blockers….
  13. Warning: possible spoilers!!!! Warning: possible spoilers!!!! So after playing through 4 quests (first blood, masquerade, castle, and fat goblin) we found that except for 2nd half of Fat Goblin, the heroes were racing to try and catch the overlord before they won the game on the 2nd/3rd round. Has anyone else been experiencing this? Here's how each encounter generally played out for us: 1) Set up map and heroes are stacked up in entrance 2) Overlord picks his open group of either dragon or ettin or other large option 3) Overlord plants large monsters in hallway and has them sit there, blocking any motion of heroes to gameplay space for victory conditions 4a) Heroes take several turns defeating the monsters - doing very little damage with weak act 1 wepaons 4b) Meanwhile, overlord has each of their minions needed for victory run (move + move) to cover the map quickly. 5) Large monsters are dead, overlord is halfway to victory usually, scramble to try and accomplish…. something… Here's how some of the encounters played out for us. Sorry if some stuff is off, I don't have the game in front of me to be exact with costs/spaces. On the Masquerade we lost on turn 2… Setup: Goblins(?) and zombies placed all around the guests in the 2 rooms they can spawn in - as well as 4 across blocking entrance Turn 1: Goblins activate - move 2 forward to open the door in the way (path is now clear to exit). with remaining goblins identify 3 partiers Zombies activate - identify 3 other partiers (for a total of 6) Note: any 'cultists' got to do stuff too Turn 2: all of our 4 villiagers were already in the hands of mosnters - all monsters run (move 2x) and leave the map. Game over…. Second encounter - Ettins(?) just blocked the hall while the lieutant ran to the exit, 2 checks later was out… game over… On Fat Goblin we managed to save 2 things… barely Setup: Goblins go where they go, OL put 4 barghests in our way (turned sideways so we had to kill 2 to move by). Turn 1: All goblins run (10 spaces) and are now in range to harvest next turn, players kill some barghests and get to move up a little, more barhests are span to block (they spawn in the start area) Turn 2: All goblins move/harvest making it 2-4 steps back towards exit depending. Turn 3: OL runs all goblins (move 2x) and wins… game over We just got lucky because our thief had both tumble and could ignore monsters for movement, so was able to shoot 2 Goblins before they made the turn to head down the long hallway to the exit. Same with First Blood Turn X: move Ettin as far as possible (only 2 ranged heroes) to make heroes chase, activate all goblins and run (move 2x) to get to the exit in 2 turns from spawn (water makes you end just short of exit). On the Castle we beat the first encounter (yay?!????) Second encounter… big monster parked in the hall way again… by time we cut down the grunt and master of the large monster the guy we had to defend was dead…. OL turns: run all monsters to sir so-and-so, if already there attack. He was dead in 3 rounds…. So again, has anyone else been noticing this is how it all plays out and, well, just isn't fun? or is our overlord just especially ruthless with how he plays?
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