Selmy isn't training Dothraki to be Knights though. He's training Meereenese to be Knights. That's what the Tourney Grounds card represents.

Honestly, it would be tough. You could do it but the problem with Targ Knight's is that most of them are transient. Two are allies, one is a merc, one retreats to hand frequently, one turns into an agenda. Only Selmy will stick around and he doesn't receive any special favours in terms of survivability. I suspect that Rolly Duckfield may make in appearance in the next CP cycle so that might help. It would depend on your opponent. Not everyone uses lots of Knights and hopefully you might still be able to outnumber people who splash the useful ones into their decks. Targ do receive two small bonuses. They can ambush in Knights during the plot and draw phase as well as burning out opposing Knights. Superiour attachment recursion allows them to better use the Knighted attachment which can also be used offensively with Daario. Same goes for Rhaegar's Harp.

db123456 said: all house keyword can use in char/attachment/location,but greyjoy............ Intimidate allows you to do unopposed challenges. Greyjoy has effects that key off of unopposed challenges. Somehow I think they're doing alright given this limitation. Having Stalwart on a location or attachment doesn't mean anything if you can't take advantage of its leaving play.

Couple small things I like about Daario. First, he's a little less vulnerable to opposing trait hate (ie Varys). Second, I like that he works better with Pike Phalanx. They both have small things to like about them that add up. There will be some Mercenary support in Narrow Sea (ex Recruitment) although I can't say for sure it will make Daario radically better.

Kennon said: 1. Sooo.... aside from finding a way to get him killed I need one burn attachment and 1 influence? This doesn't exactly seem like the most difficult combinations to put together. Golden Tooth Mines doesn't do me any good either if I don't draw cards that are applicable to the current board state, and it still runs into the issue of there being at max 3 of any single card that I might want. With a minimum of effort, Griff knocks that max out. I'd still say that's pretty solid. 2. Also, is no one going to way in on the Great Daario Debate? Or does everyone just agree with me that he's phenomenal? 1. So does Dany's Chambers. Or Bronze Link. And its never, ever just 1 influence with Targ. And I'll take the more likely to draw what you need of GTM or other draw mechanism over the hope I can get my recursion going. By cutting yourself off from certain agendas you're losing certain tools and you may not have adequate replacements for them. 2. I want to be the filling in a Jorah-Daario sandwich. There is no debate.

Kennon said: Hmmm..... Not sure why I would want to do that. His ability brings very little to the table out of Baratheon. Which attachments are you desperately wanting to recur in Baratheon? On the other hand, in Targ, he ensures that the first copy of a powerful burn attachment that you draw is essentially infinite copies. That sounds like pretty good draw to me. Ok, so it's really card advantage, rather than draw, but it's still exceptional. It has a little more to do with him being an unkillable Lord, Knight and Noble. The recursion would be irrelevant. An unkillable Dothraki with the War Crest would be valuable for Targ. Especially one that can manipulate a variety of attachments not just the burn ones. Lords, Knights and Nobles are not for Targ at this time. I suspect that this may change since Griff and Friends may be able to support each other in thematic ways. And because it can not be said enough, recursion is not draw. You have to draw into the moving parts needed to get recursion started and keep it rolling. Summer and TMP make getting started easier. Griff is very efficient only after you have everything in place.

I'm not purely trying to turn this into a draw=win argument. Draw is important but TMP and Summer also provide other potent effects. Griff doesn't give you anything you don't already have. I could try to create an engine with the "refresh" attachments but I think those attachments are only more valuable if you can key them with other effects. Hrakkar Pelt for example is an alright card but its better if you can gain additional advantage for winning dominance or performing an action during dominance. Furthermore, they dilute your deck with alot of weak attachments that hurt setup and potentially your draw and gold. Let's compare Griff to another recent immortal, Theon Greyjoy. Griff's immortality is a bit better but is he stronger in play? Theon might be weaker but he does have a highly useful trait and Greyjoy can make better use of the Noble crest. Theon also doesn't prevent other agendas from being used and his passive helps aid the mill mechanic. You can drop him into any Greyjoy deck as a cheep claim soak and you have the option of using his other abilities to your advantage. Again, Griff is useful but effects to make him stronger do not exist in Targ. Imagine him played OOH in a Baratheon deck. As for Griff's mechanics, I think his passive agenda transformation completely resolves (step 4) before any other responses are triggered (step 5). So if he has an attachment I think he can recur it. He also might trigger his other passive (coming back) before you can trigger his agenda response. I'm also bad at the game so I could be wrong.

Tomdidiot said: I disagree, Griff is pretty amazing. 1. Griff's passive doesn't work if you're running an agenda. He wouldn't be your "only" agenda if you're already running an agenda, so he'd just die normally - you don't lose your agenda. 2. 3 for 3 Tricon is great. Tricons are incredibly flexible. Him being unkillable is also very useful - you chumpblock a deadly challenge, he dies, and he comes back, ready to challenge again, he's repeatable claim soak, board presence after valar etc. His response is amazing. Recurring your flame kisseds and using them multiple times per turn, especially on a threat from the North turn is incredible. He is a serious leg up for Targ Burn. 3, Using that argument, you could argue the new Cersei is bad because she doesn't help Lanny with Location or attachment hate.... he seriously helps burn. He's also a very good 3 cost Targ Card and much better other cost 3 characters - Targ also could run more 3 costs than other houses anyway because Targ's 4 cost characters are so bad - only 3 or so regularly see play unless you count the dragons. 1. Correct. But you're only gonna use him if you're not running another agenda. Which means none of the other cards that come with playing TMP or Summer. For, Targ you're giving up valuable draw amongst other effects. Not so hot now eh? 2, No. You're mistaken. He does none of those things unless you have access to him as an agenda. Are you willing to give up TMP or Summer for that? If you're not, he's a vanilla tricon with traits and a crest that are not used by Targ. 3. The new Cersei has two amazing abilities that directly plug into an existing House theme. Griff has no amazing abilities at all if you're running another agenda. Even if you do run him as your agenda, he's fairly efficient but has no irreplaceable effects. And, yes, unlike Cersei he does have to address Targ in house problems because that's what agendas do. Compare him to Young Griff. Targ have multiple useful shadow cards and effects. He has a unique and potent come into play effect. And when he is in play, he has stealth thus making him more valuable as a Tricon. That is why he is a 5 star character and Griff is not. Yes, I am judging him in a vacuum. However, the only guarantee that I see forthcoming to improve his character is that there will be new Influence generating cards that are not limited. As it is, without adequate draw replacement he probably shouldn't be your agenda. I don't really expect to see any Lord or Knight effects for Targ. Other cards that effect Nobles (ie a new Strong Belwas) would be welcome though.

Regarding Griff. Whilst I do think he's pretty good, I do not think he's amazing for a few reasons. 1 - He shuts out using another agenda. Since Targ frequently use Summer or TMP to fuel card draw, you're losing an essential resource amongst other things. His attachement recursion effect is interesting but not irreplaceable. 2 - Whilst in play he's nothing special. A 3for3for3 is pretty good but not unique for Targ or even all that necessary. Being a Lord, Knight and Noble is great... if you're Baratheon. Those key words mean little for Targ currently. Admittedly, this could change in the future. The Norvos card even in its partially spoiled state isn't bad for Targ since it has influence and they have a modest collection of quality Lords. Since he does nothing special, his unkillable nature is diluted. Its most interesting when comboed with ambush attachments where he can recur these attachments and then use them to be replayed later. Unfortunately, all the current ones are Dothraki only. 3 - He addresses none of Targ's problems. He's cost efficient which is good but there are multiple other characters who are better. He otherwise does not address Targ's weak draw or their influence/gold management. In fact, Targ is a bit reliant on attachment effects. He eases them with good recursion but Targ attachments dilute set up making Targ draw even worse. Now, if Targ were to say have some form of effect that keyed off of characters entering or leaving play outside the Marshalling phase, then we might have something.

I think all of the keywords are good. However, Stalwart and Infamy simply have little support. You can get a bit tricky with Infamy by dumping power on a hard to kill character but there really needs to be stuff that keys off of power on characters. Stalwart is even worse. You dump Banner for the North on your favourite character (ex Lucas Blackwood) and cross your fingers.

Take Blood of the First Men off the banned list. Which is kinda why I expected to see it already. Although, there's part of my brain making me wonder if there's something that needs to be pre-restricted in the upcoming CP's.

alpha5099 said: Pretty much. If you were running a whole lot of the given Trait, it might be worth it to run it out of the reduced House -- there's Stark Shadow deck that uses pretty much nothing but Ladies that I've been meaning to build for a while -- but generally it will probably make more sense in other Houses. Well, it won't work quite as well in a shadow deck since it won't reduce a shadow. Still Stark has 6 distinct Ladies that can be reduced, all of which are solid cards. Not too shabby. I also wouldn't be too surprised to see more Mormont girls along with Alys Karstark in the future.

Many years of playing Vs. with its two draw per turn cause me to draw before plots are chosen.

alpha5099 said: That's true, but Lords and Ladies are traits every House uses, so if the goal here is to improve flexibility when using OOH cards, it might make sense to keep with those two. How useful would the Baratheon reducer be if Asshai was the given trait? It would help reduce DotN Mel, who gets played OOH pretty frequently, but that's probably about it. An Asshai reducer can go either Bara or Targ. If its Bara, you can use it to bring in more Holy Crests and some Shadow manipulation to a deck. If its Targ, you can use Shadow Seers and Red Warlocks.

As a Targ player, there's normally a few characters that make every deck regardless of what else I might include. Jhogo (OSaS) - Solid character with draw. No reason to not include him until Targ gets some form of solid pre-challenge draw. Viserys (Core) - Little deficient with some plots but still the best claim soak there is. Maester Aemon (Core or ACoS) - More claim soak. I lean toward the ACoS version usually since he's reducible although poor in Winter. Also searchable. Advisor to the Crown - Most Targ decks require influence and he's searchable via plot. Summer Sea - Duh. Meereen Tourney Ground - Even in a non-burn deck, its helpful to push through a challenge. Its better than Forever Burning since it can help with set-up. 0 Cost Hobo - Your refugee of choice. Harbingers are a reasonable substitute since they'll usually have a few reduction targets and aren't vulnerable to Dissension. Jorah Mormont (KotS or WLL) - KotS version is a cheap tricon with stealth. New version takes the place of Varys in Targ and has more fighting ability besides. That's about it. Everything else tends to belong to some form of deck but lacks universality even if they're a good card.

Support you can use to start pinching the new Kingdom locations. Their GG advantage is lessened since you've helped alleviate the cheep as dirt noble problem. It may even benefit you depending on your deck. Furthermore, you can't use dupes to save the location from take control effects. You can also use Increased Levy as well Burned and Pillaged. Some day, I hope that there's an Influence generator (or even nullifier) that you can attach to locations. It does depend what kind of OOH stuff gets introduced. If locations become a problem, people may start importing more Greyjoys.

Staton said: Yeah that's the thing though, what real nuetral location hate is there? Condemned by the Realm? Can't really use that in every deck. Pyromancer's Apprentice? Meh. Favorable Ground I guess? Support of the Kingdom, Price of War, Condemned by the Council. The Bandits are a little more useful since there will be more multi-house targets.

sWhiteboy said: Mighty Jim said: If: Draw =Win Clansmen = Lose? Well, Clansmen have abilities that offset the "lose" of discarding. The question is, do the postitives of Clansmen offset the "lose" of discarding. Draw still gives you options. If you wish to discard something to generate an effect, you have a wider variety of cards to choose from. Lannister also has some discard pile recursion that works with Clansmen and its sometimes more beneficial to discard a card.

JackofHearts said: I've got all of the current block ....... except my Greyjoy seems kinda lackluster. DOES NOT COMPUTE DOES NOT COMPUTE

Luck is a strong component of any card game. Whenever you blindly draw from a stack of randomly distributed cards of fixed quantity, a certain amount of luck is involved. You hope you can minimize that by adding cards that can draw or search or whatever you like. However, every so often I have a game where I drop two cards in setup after mulligan and I then proceed to draw only two cards per turn till the game finishes (usually a loss). All the fun cards which is supposed to mitigate this are at the bottom of the deck. In fairness to GoT, the plot deck really helps mitigate this since its a non-random element. Still the plot deck doesn't help everyone evenly. I play Building Season to get Dany's Chambers. The opposing Lanni player gets GTM instead. Who's ahead of the game? That's why Draw = Win. Its simply better. If things had different resource needs, it would be different but that isn't always the case.

DieMyDarling said: That's why I just run StannisKOTS and Altar of Fire. If I'm not getting any cards then neither is anyone else. Edit: Somebody beat me to it. You know what the problem with the whole Bara draw denial sub theme is? You have to draw the cards to make it work. By the time you get it going, your opponent may have a mittful of cards. Speaking of which, eff TLS and Threat From The East.

Staton said: Therefore I believe that the equation Draw = Win is missing a few variables. Which means that the basic equation Draw =/= Win must be true. Make a no-draw deck and see how well you do. Use no draw (or search). Run KotHH to remove setup or simply skip it altogether. Finally, make the deck Highlander to limit the effectiveness of the games draw phase. Yes, it does boil down to card advantage but having draw and search gives you greater opportunity to obtain more card advantage effects. This is why card preservation and recursion are worse than draw.

Luck = Win You play specific cards in specific quantities to reduce the amount of luck needed to win. In my opinion, Search > Draw > Preservation > Recursion in terms of usefulness. If you have none of these, you're simply at the mercy of your (or your opponent's) deck. Since most cards have additional costs tied to them the relative proportions of the card types may change.

AegonTargaryen said: It is not that simple. Some decks are able to win without extra draw, if they are fast enough (e.g., RDW in MtG). Bara Rush was able to work like that at some point in AGOT. Bara has some draw via Knights of the Realm. Furthermore, most decks have access to draw via the set up phase. The typical rush deck has enough low cost cards to increase the odds of you having a large set-up thus giving you additional free draw at the start of the game.

Rave said: think this is the key. If Lannister starts heading the field again, then we will see the card a lot more. Kind of like how we see ill-tidings everywhere, because it's the only card that can deal with summer and winter, even though there are other options for attachment removal. Dissension isn't a dead card very often either, most deck have at least a couple of allies, and almost all decks seem to have refugees. I think it's something I'd only slot 1 or 2 of though. The thing that bothers me about facing any upcoming Lannister decks isn't the Allies though. Its the Lords (and Ladies). I'm fairly certain you can make a strong Lannister with few or zero Allies in it. Its almost a good idea knowing full well that your opponent will have dead cards in their deck.