Stag Lord said: Just another way to hurt Baratheon Rush. Sigh. Just another means to clear some chaff out of the way of your rush you mean.

Mathias Fricot said: If I meet you, I will fight you. Thats no lie. Eddard is a noob though. He's bad at gaming. Two of his sons were bad at it. His wife was also bad at it. Three of his children basically threw down their cards and ran off to vacation in exotic locales instead of trying. The only one who seems to be putting any effort into it is Sansa even though the jerk killed her wolf. Sansa may not be much in a straight up fight but melee is about making friends. In my opinion the Melee Champion should be called the Sansa Prize.

Shouldn't the last place prize be called the Eddard Prize? Dude was a total noob and got eliminated way early.

I tend to flit between four sites. Agotcards.org I like because of the discussion, aggressive updates and quick search (for LCG and CCG). Cardgamedb.com has a nicer deck builder, some more hosted things but the search engine could use some work. agot.dbler.com has the best search interface and includes CCG. Its lack of updates is problematic. info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~szczesnj/ has nice advanced search options although I don't like the shorthands he uses for Crests and Challenge types. The tabular format's also nice for quickly comparing multiple cards. Its also the least punishing for those running weak computers.

Penfold said: But that is a very different complaint than the one I was addressing, which is why this may have been melee only. It not being as strong as the others is beyond the scope of the argument I was making. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not sure I agree either. Whilst I think some people are disappointed in seeing melee only cards, if its a good card those people acknowledge its usefulness. They may even try them out even if they would rather joust. Varys is a good example. He's melee only but fairly potent. Also really annoying. Personally, I was dreading seeing the other melee events because United Cause was so deficient and I like playing melee. Fortunately, the others aren't too bad even with the power cost.

Penfold said: In Joust Stark should not have access to character recursion just like Bara shouldn't have access to deck search. You give each House access to a card effect that is not even remotely in their theme it needs limitations or built in inefficiencies, and making it only useable when you have multiple opponents who can target you sounds fair to me. Well, after seeing the other melee plots I can't help but think that Bara and Stark got the short end of the stick. The search part of the card is a bit weak considering that Bara already has some search ability. Its paying a triple penalty for a chance at something better. The recursion part is helpful for Stark but the cost cap is problematic. At very least, it should be Marshalling phase. By comparison, the Lanni/GJ card gives some draw acceleration or it can stuff multiple locations pre-marshalling, likely increasing income disparity. The Targ/Martell card grants decent recursion that both Houses could make use of or enhances each Houses control effects.

I want an expansion featuring art from the TV show for two reasons: 1 - Emilia Clarke is hawt. 2 - I want a Crown of Gold attachment.

And after having said all that, I check out some fresh spoilers and see some sweet, sweet non-challenge draw for Targ (ogawd, Meraxes). But really give us something that keys off of the Noble Crest. All the other houses get cool Noble stuff and they're fake Nobles with no Fire in their Blood.

Skowza said: Whoa now...Griff is amazing. 3-Gold 3-STR tricon with Noble crest and Lord and Knight Traits... um, which House is it that doesn't like that? House Targeryen. Targ doesn't use those Traits or Crest and there are already 3for3for3's that do something. Skowza said: Unless he is blanked, he basically cannot die, he can defend any challenge unless Stealthed, likes to get hit by Deadly, is semi-permanent claim soak, and provides a huge recursion boost. I still think we need more in-House sources of Influence (even with Braavos we are still only up to four) but even if his Response may be costly to trigger he can be slotted into almost any deck. He doesn't cut off draw; maybe we don't get to use Kings of Summer, but Sam and Gilly still provide draw when Targ Summer wants to trigger all those neat effects. The recent Targ cards have been pretty impressive and Griff seems like a great toolbox mechanic. First, he either provides recursion or claim soak. If he's constantly jumping into and out of play, its fairly rare that you'll get to recur anything. Therefore you'll still have to use your other recursion cards. Yes, being able to laugh at Deadly is pretty good and its probably his best feature. Unfortunately, you're opponent will do his best to sidestep him that much like they do with Ser Barristan. At least he doesn't need to be replayed like Viserys. Second, he cuts off draw. Using him means no TMP, KoS and KotR (almost viable!). Yes, you have other draw mechanics although you'll probably find yourself going back to Jhogo and whatever else you can force into the deck. He doesn't really key off of anything that Targ currently uses. I'm not denying he has a lot of potential. Compare him to Young Griff though. Young Griff is a beast who directly interacts with Targ shadow, has Stealth and laughs at the dirty Lanni's with their silly kneeling.

Mathias Fricot said: It isn't as good as the targ character/agenda because of that that does for the specific targ attachments (like Flame Kissed). Think of a martell deck that did not have an agenda, and then look at what this does for it. I dunno about that. Obviously, Martell isn't hurting for draw but it changes your options around which isn't too bad. Being able to stand large numbers of characters is always good. If they add more effects that key off of having large numbers of uniques, he'll be even better. He does provide something different then current agendas. KoS provides nice draw but that's not to say its replaceable. The Kindly Man is interesting since it provides something that Stark doesn't normally do. I can't say its better or worse than other Agendas although I am amused by the idea of constantly recurring House Umber Berserkers. Griff by comparison cuts off Targ draw for potentially more efficient recursion. Thing is there's no reason to do this since you can still have your draw cake and still eat pretty good recursion. He could be very interesting if they make something that keys off of his traits and crest or his ability to jump into and out of play.

Kaworu said: Killer of the Wounded + Rhaegar's Harp + Lyanna Stark + Satin can discard an entire deck in one phase.Let's ban Killer of the Wounded and Lyanna Stark to make possible this combo. Contrary to what you might believe, this is not an opportunity to bash the Baratheons. People are focusing on Robert because he is the more dangerous variant of the Satin combo. Killer of the Wounded is only marginally less problematic since it in general has lower survivability. Its still a problem card. I for one wouldn't be bothered if either card got the Saltcliffe treatment or similar errata.

Staton said: He sure is. Although he doesn't see nearly enough play, imo. WTB moar Noble love for Targ since they are actually Noble unlike the dirty Usurpers and their dirty Lapcats.

Giving Vengeful to any version of TRV is powerful. The new one in particular will have some alternate opportunities to stand thus allowing him to preserve some gold for boosting Claim Value later. Bastard of Godsgrace is also good. Getting your Renown characters to stand is also good.

oshi said: Patchface Chargenda gooooo~ he's from essos right? "Knights, Fools, Allies, and even Lords" He was purchased in Volantis, so, yes.

It could be that some of the neutrals are taking sides. Night's Watch allying with the Baratheon's. Wildlings marrying Starks. The Vale being manipulated on behalf of Stark. Lannister's buying favours from anyone. I was thinking for Bara, Donal Noye would be pretty decent. He's an earlier character but he fits right in.

Andy99 said: Played with an army deck. So lost pretty much all intrigues, strength reduction with another Chain, and so on. My deck consists of 70 cards, so :7+3 (setup) + 2*4 turn= 18 cards drawed after turn 4 draw phase. After that 49 discards. After a Valar, i could only place 1 char in, and that had its stre reduced to 0 all the time. I'm still puzzled about how he got 7 chains on the Killer. It takes some fairly lucky draw on his part to pull that off. Furthermore, where is your draw engine? No additional cards after 4 turns is fairly bad (or unlucky).

Skowza said: Theres always Nightmares. Its also a versatile solution to any number of non-TRV character problems. Nightmares is worthy but its also not a response. GG isn't as risk free as some like to portray, it has a hefty cost to use it. Greyjoy is fairly dangerous to a GG deck not just because of location hate but they can cancel the trigger itself with a few cards. Having something generic that stops a location effect could set the Martell player on edge.

I think that location hate isn't necessarily the answer although after looking through some cards it seems to me that one thing missing from the game are cards the help mitigate location effects. There are a variety of cards that specifically ward against Characters, Attachments and Events. There are no cards that are "Immune to Location Abilities". There is no "Paper Shield"-like event that specifically stops a location trigger. I think the other thing that's missing is that despite the emphasis on this CP cycle's Unique character emphasis, there is little additional support for duplication. Bara gets some love since they have superiour discard pile recursion but no one else does. Its an essential defensive measure for uniques and the cycle feels incomplete without it.

The reason the Baratheon's don't have any Learned characters is they don't like that education thing. You got a drunk, a fop and an angry religious zealot leading them. No time for book's but they sure do like cups.

So far this CP cycle has been released shortly after the current Warhammer Invasion CP cycle. WHI CP #5 came out recently so I'm hoping it will be next week. The upcoming page hasn't been updated recently which is a bit worrisome.

Shenanigans said: Your meta might be different, but from my experience, here are Knights you're likely to see even in a non-KotR deck, House by House:Baratheon: TLS, Ser Cortnay Penrose, Ser Davos Seaworth, Ser Eldon Estermont, Ser Guyard Morrigen, Ser Parmen Crane Lannister: Ser Jaime Lannister, Ser Aerys Oakheart, maybe the new Ser Addam Marbrand Martell: Darkstar, Ser Aerys Oakheart Greyjoy: The Knight Stark: The Blackfish, Ser Jorah Mormont Lannister you'll likely see a bit more than that I think. Lorch, Bronn, Kevan, Balon Swann are all useful and they still have many more with alternate trait manipulation. The new CP also has new Knights for Stark, Bara and Lanni. I know the Stark one (Knight of Harrenhal) is 2for2 with Mil and a long ass text box. Specific to me though I have to contend with Bara KotoR, Bara Stannis theme, Lanni Kingsguard, Lanni Nobles, Tully Siege and House Dayne Summer. I think its doable but its not like the other houses are especially disadvantaged (besides GJ) from doing the same.

Shenanigans said: I'd imagine that you'd be able to keep 3-4 knights on the board consistently, and against the vast majority of decks that should be good. I'd only imagine problems against another KotR deck or perhaps Lannister. Depends on your meta but I look at this way. Targ will have a comparable number of Knights to Martell and Stark. With a dedicated build you could outnumber the average deck from either house. However both of those houses have their own forms of targeted removal so they might be able to force Knight parity. On top of that, you will not outnumber Lannister or Bara who have both numbers and variety at their disposal. Even in a non-KotR build both may still be able to outnumber your Knights. For my own local meta, I am likely to face 2 Bara, 2 Lanni, 1 Stark and 1 Martell deck who will likely out number Targ knights. I'd say I have about a 60% chance of facing a deck with few enough Knights to make it work. Is that good, I don't know but its much worse than Summer. Not that I can run Summer but if I had the Ravens I would.

I will not be satisfied until some madman with a plunger takes both Andreas, Darksbane, Rogue30 and the Dblr dude and jams all of them into the same skull. Then we will have the perfect AGoT utility site.

Twn2dn said: Also, deadly on a 2/2 with power is a nice thing to have. The ability on him is pretty situational but likely to be very good in some situations (apprentice collar?). Court Advisor. Turn him into a Tricon and then draw a card.

alpha5099 said: Regardless of how it's done, what I would like is some way -- other than the Knighted attachment -- of spreading the Knight trait to more cards Targ has. Just from a Nedly perspective, Targ shouldn't have many in the way of Knights, but Dany certainly has more than her share of loyal warriors by her side that may as well be Knights if not for the cultural differences.Perhaps it could be tied to the Queensguard trait. Give us a more playable Strong Belwas, and give us a way to make him and Dany's Bloodriders serve as Knights. What I think we'll see is an expansion of the Exiled Knight concept ie more Mercenary Knights. Harry Strickland, Brendel Byrne, Franklyn Flowers and so forth are all Mercs fighting for Griff. The Second Sons and the Windblown also have Knights fighting for them. There could also be Knights who are secretly loyal to the Targeryens but were forced to swore fealty to the Baratheon's after Robert's Rebellion. These would have no negative traits and would have a shadow crest. I would really like to see more Queensguard stuff but I put it in the same category as Targ influence generators. Targ isn't allowed to have nice things.