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Tranenturm

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Everything posted by Tranenturm

  1. Good luck on the tourney and I'll read through the report.
  2. No trick questions from me btw. Setting up a common framework
  3. Cool little interlude. Okay. Let's start with the peel (just got to start somewhere). I think we both have some unstated assumptions that are different and confusing things. Please pick a sample engagement. You mentioned a VSD carrier so let's go with that. Boosted comms. Rhymer and what else? What enemy do you want to discuss first, a no ship list or squadron force and what relevant composition? What's your approach strategy? What do you do vs likely enemy counter actions?
  4. Yes Tie Bombers can move speed 4 away from Xwings. But without Rhymer it questionable that they would attack a ship and avoid the Xwings/YT/AWing, or escape Point Defense. Not only this but to practiclly get into bombing Range for a Squadron Command with Generics you are either required to i) move into bombing range in the squadron phase ii) wait from a ship to drift into you. Both of these are clearly frought with extra danger (and bad timing) that going without the extra range buffer Rhymer provides. So you're not spending Squadron Commands on generic Tie Bombers in your turn? How the **** do you plan to fight anything? Wait for something to drift into you every turn and attack in squadron phase with Generics? Great plan! You seem to be under the impression that Rhymer entirely removes the need for squadron commands. This is clearly written from the perspective of i) someone who is salty about Rhymer and assumes he makes the game easy ii) no flight time with Rhymer "Just fine". So an allowence of up to the full length of Medium compared to Range 1 is according to you a "just fine" call. Your judgement is clearly poor. That or coloured by a strong desire to be a polemicist. Then in your "just fine" world your Carrier has to be a full Medium Length closer to danger to Command the bombers to fall back. Therefore putting everything in more danger but nah it's "just fine". Questions: Did you come to your assessment of "just fine" based on any experience or form of play testing? Or are you just saying things for the sake of argument? Have you honestly even ever performed a "peel"? You're right. You never said Mauler, Howl and Dengar are more effective. I case you missed it you said, "However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective" No strawman here. I'm just quoting you. Maybe that's why you think something doesn't make sense. This is bull. You can't drift between talking about efficiency (in this case an objective numerical assessment) and individual skill. You're also begging the question, that a unit in of itself actually encourages poor play. Basic Squadron Commands are "intensive" now? Or is it intensive because I retreat? So i should sit there and cop flak? Question: Do you think squadron commands are bad? Appeal to emotion? Seriously? No you can't. Many are not fast enough, some barely. And you put yourself closer to other threats. Rhymer straight up blanks it by adding an additional medium length messure. You are aware that the Range Rhymer provies is the same length as a Blue Point Defense yes? Meaning with Rhymer you are only required to move each squadron a little bit more than it's own base out of range. In fact if you are doing it propelly with a VSD you put 3 Bombers just in Range and leave Rhymer (because his ability is Range 1). This way the VSD can Squadron Command 3 (with Boosted Comms of course), pull them back out of PD range, now the enemy ship is only required to be moving speed 1 to allow Rhymer to shoot in the Squadron phase. You might do this is you want to use Wulf to cut speed down so you can keep the Nav Token for later. Next turn you can spend the Squadron token for 4 Squadron so you can pull Rhymer and the 3 Bombers back further. This is what actual experience looks like. First off i) Rymer balls don't need an Intel ship. There is no golden rule that says so. ii) Despite this cutting Rhymer doesn't mean the need for Intel dissapears (but there is still no "must/golden rule"). This is clearly your assumption, that Rhymer i) needs Intel ii) non Rhymer doesn't. Do Rebels run Jan? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There is no rule. Being able to move when "engaged" is still useful in of itself. You're assuming this is somehow not the case. Which again. My "appeal to emotion" in your words was an appeal to humor which clearly missed. If you wish to continue this, let's slow down. Breathe. Realize we play this for fun and this doesn't need to be debate school. Im very happy to work through but the wall of text is hard to respond via cell phone. So pick a point and let's start there.
  5. That is called data. Statistics requires more data than that. Someone please beat me senseless with a crutch.
  6. Ignoring crits of course. Crit effects are obviously highly variable from 0 to devastating, but a crit card seems to average out to roughly an additional damage. Very rough so not good to include in some calculations. But its important to remember in rerolling scenarios. e.g. you have targeting scramblers its often not a good idea to reroll the single black hits.
  7. But now you want us to use the most useless squadron in the game the basic Tie. You just want us to give points to the other player? TIE fighters are just fine. They are fragile but no more fragile than the more expensive Interceptors in lists the pro-Rhymer people in the thread have be proposing. From a pure point perspective they are incredibly efficient. That efficiency is somewhat lessoned by their 3 hp and there can be only so many commands thrown. I'm also not saying they are your only alternative. Use aggressors. Use Interceptors (though I'm not a fan). Use whatever you want. I'm not trying to push TIE fighters. I'm pushing playing without balls. um... that didn't come out quite right.
  8. An Aceball is already balling for multiple reasons. I'm not against Rhymer joining a ball in progress. My point is that TIE Bombers can be effective without Rhymer. I didn't say Mauler, Howlrunner, Denar, and company are more effective without him. You're doing a straw man argument. Taking a squadron away CAN make others more effective if the one being removed encourages poor play. You then give several points about moving bombers around that have no relevance to whether Rhymer is with the ball or not. TIE bombers can move speed 4 away from x-wings whether or not Rhymer is with them. Furthermore, if you're spending a command every turn to accomplish this then that actually reduces the need for Rhymer. Any squadron can quite effectively be part of a squadron screen regardless if the attack is coming from normal shooting distance or medium range. And once the bombers are close enough to threaten the whole ship (even with Rhymer), they are close enough for speed 3 X-wings to alpha strike. Your command intensive "peel away" also works just fine sans Rhymer. You need to have better positioning and anticipation for it to work, but it still works. Rhymer in no way counters all ship flak. He sort of counters black dice flak if the enemy is silly enough to never close. But if all you are doing is command intensive shoot and retreat (with a retreating Imperial vessel, how unbecoming of an officer of the Navy), then Rhymer's additional range isn't really contributing. I can do that with normal bombers. Letting ships come to you is a tried and true B-wing tactic. B-wings don't have Rhymer. Rhymer makes things easier. Of course he gets played. But Rebel squadrons do just fine without Rhymer, IF the player has gone to the trouble of learning the tricks of squadrons. If you want to treat it like a baseball warm up playing without him and then play the tournament with him, fine. I'm not stopping you. If you want every imperial squadron list to begin and end with a ball, that's your mental trap not mine. I'm just the voice at the prison door telling you the door unlocked, you just have to step out. No it doesn't. Yes it does.
  9. I'm too long gone from x-wing to know what this means in today's context. Back in the day I spent a lot of time trying to make a viable Rhymer list to little avail. That was prior to scum.
  10. Shove your challenge man. Can dudes have a convo without the inclusion of your attention-whoring? That's harsh. His thread is relevant to this one.
  11. I'm in the camp that Han is a blowhard. "Fastest ship in the fleet" my but. I still like him. He's just not 100% truthful. He is a rogue.
  12. Anyone not using the force to move their ships around is using their hands as crutch. Weak minded fools.
  13. so the forum just jumped the shark...
  14. I'm definitely a tool. But whose...?
  15. This style of play doesn't mean the squadrons NEED to be ship activated. It means playing positionally rather than pure tactically. I place my squadrons in a position I expect you to be/don't want you to be. If you move to avoid those squadrons then that is (hopefully if I did it right) to my advantage. So long as I place ANY squadron in the right place it should get two attacks off on most ships (except for CR90s running speed 4). It's not uncommon for me to run 3-5 A-wings without ever intending to issue a squadron command. If you want to avoid those A-wings, so be it. The 2TIE/1Bomb package is similar (though more expensive). You can get reasonably get 4 attacks off per game without commands or force serious deviation of enemy ships. As for the flak range, sure. But the point is you're not all in the same arc. Now that doesn't mean I don't use squadron commands. Well timed squadron commands can be the entire difference in the battle. So yes, I do invest some amount of the fleet using a TIE/bomber mix with squadron commands. Many people do. The difference is making sure your play doesn't rely entirely on the commands. Part of this is that it emphasizes a different style of play. Rhymer balls are similar to XI-7 ships in that the emphasis is on piercing attacks destroying ships with unused shields. Defuse squadron play surrounds the enemy preventing flak from getting too many shots in and makes redirect tokens "useless" in that your plan was to use mass efficiency to reduce most of the shields ANYWAY. Go ahead. Redirect that shot to your flank shields. I have squadrons on both sides any... etc. Because I'm using efficiently costed squadrons I generally have more potential raw attack power than someone using upgrades and aces. The trick is I need to use it properly. If I'm out of position too much my raw efficiency gets lost. So its not perfect by any stretch.
  16. buttah! I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed. I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer. at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses. even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer. or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships. You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed. A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without). I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing. A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done. As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument. I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range. the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons.... i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption. I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads. I did start the thread saying there wasn't enough controversy. So I was being slightly trollish. But I'm also really am trying to get people to break up their notions about ways to run squadrons. Your anti-ship vs anti-squadron scenario above doesn't REQUIRE Rhymer to pull off. What is required is the ability to close to range. Rhymer makes it easier, but in many cases is a redundant effect that ALSO requires a ball. 10TIEs/5Bombers is a threat to ships and squadrons entirely without Rhymer. An in many ways is easier to split up. I'm also not a big believer in matching squadrons to the amount of command points in the fleet. I expect squadrons to be lost or not always need commands so in many cases I want more squadrons than commands. You still want enough commands with TIE fighters for alpha strike purposes. so you are playing squadrons like spec ops hit squads... which is how I feel you play the rebels squadrons... swarm howlrunner dengar rhymer all make me want to ball up.... balling up has its disadvantages but i feel its exactly what imperial squadrons are designed around. just as rebel squadrons are designed to be self sufficient elite forces. its why for a while you say tons of rebel aces and lots of imperial swarms... it was "historically accurate" I think what you are saying works... I am positive it does. I am not positive it is the most efficient way to run imperial squadrons. there are a lot of things in this game that work and are fun... i played screed 4 raiders isd OLP spam with relentless... when it worked it was glorious... when it didn't work i got tabled... it was consistent. this game based on how tournament scoring works is about consistently. if my squadrons can consistently do what ive designed them to do (dominate air space, or is it space space, and still harry ships) then why change. i had long talks with my buddy whether or not to drop rhymer... the consensus was "hes cheap enough its not a lose if you dont use his ability, you will be happy to have it when you do, it dictates a lot of your opponents actions with their squadrons" also let them kill rhymer with their squadrons... if im dog fighting i want dengar and howlrunner alive WAY more. once again, designed to force my opponents to make choices... I need to be able to capitalize on their choices.. its why I love armada. Your ball is what I consider an "AcesBall" which like you said, I'm balling up anyway why not include. Which is the PERFECT Rhymer usage. And to be clear my calling Rhymer a "crutch" is for shock reasons only. He's a really good card that people use to good effect. I'm interested in discussing alternatives and being a form of checking the meta. I'm fine if you all convince me that Rhymer is auto include. My point is having healthy dissent. I apologize if my tone was ever dismissive.
  17. His observation is that without the need to keep your bombers within 1 of Rhymer, you can spread them out, so that your entire bomber force can't be locked down by 1 or 2 fighters. No longer need to, I just need to protect the distance 1 zone from my ships. I CAN do that with 2 squads. Now spread out AND use Rhymer and I am stretched too thin Which is why running without rhymer is good training, but its still better to have him. Sort of. The farther out you threaten the closer together the attackers need to be at the start and the less area you actually threaten. (Two overlapping ovals. The closer the centers the more overlap, the farther apart the less overlap). So knowing this and Rhymer's capabilities I can cover a long range Rhymer threat with just a pair of squadrons space just far enough apart to limit intel. But the closer we get together for you to threaten a larger area, we quickly get into a range of me threatening an alpha strike with my own squadrons. We're not talking a huge range distance here. Particularly as very few people run Warlord anymore to increase the Bomber range. So speed 4 fighters are just fine (or FCT enabled 3 speed fighters).
  18. buttah! I disagree thats fine. you can still split up and threaten mutliple areas... the nice thing about Rhymer is that he can just buff one pod... move on his turn and then another pod can activate and get buffed. I ball up... plain and simple. if you wanna shred fighters instead of laying into my ship be my guest... fighters are ultimately disposable. you set your hornets nest and make your opponent choose. strong attack the enemy ship... or try and kill these **** bees? either way I win... shoot my ship my bees get to harass you. shoot my bees and my ship lives longer. at its core armada is a game of decision making and the person who makes more wrong decisions generally loses. even if i only ball up for 1 or 2 turns... its worth it to upgrade to rhymer. or my opponent simply commits 30pts to kill a 16pt squdron stand that was buffing my interceptors so i still get to win squadron combat, i lost 16pts and im still going to harrier your ships. You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed. A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without). I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing. A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done. As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument. I agree to your last point.. I've lost too many games because ive left a ship at 2pts... and wasn't in range. the thing about rhymer with ties is.... either i alpha your ship or I alpha your squadrons... i feel its a win/win either way... as i dont really need my squadrons to survive all 6 turns. If they wipe out 3 enemy stands and can survive the reprisal to win the engagement next turn i am up on pts and harass ships... if i go for your ship off the rip maybe you havn't qued engineering fast enough and i have an opportunity to deal a lot of damage. I am running rhymer with dengar for very obvious reasons.... i guess the tone of the thread is what triggers me.. ill admit it. i've seen these pop up since rhymer came out. im tired of it as much as you are tired of people like me sayings hes an auto include. This thread's title came off as abrasive. where Lyraeus's thread is more of an ice bucket challenge vibe without the non-profit corruption. I feel demolisher is legit bad for the game.... I wont contest that. that doesn't mean we need 3 threads a day about "stop crutching demo newb, git gud!" thats the tone of the threads. I did start the thread saying there wasn't enough controversy. So I was being slightly trollish. But I'm also really am trying to get people to break up their notions about ways to run squadrons. Your anti-ship vs anti-squadron scenario above doesn't REQUIRE Rhymer to pull off. What is required is the ability to close to range. Rhymer makes it easier, but in many cases is a redundant effect that ALSO requires a ball. 10TIEs/5Bombers is a threat to ships and squadrons entirely without Rhymer. An in many ways is easier to split up. I'm also not a big believer in matching squadrons to the amount of command points in the fleet. I expect squadrons to be lost or not always need commands so in many cases I want more squadrons than commands. You still want enough commands with TIE fighters for alpha strike purposes.
  19. You should be competitive for a tourney and go with what works best. Agreed. A case can be made for helpers that correct for sloppy play when doing a five round tournament. Mental fatigue is a thing and Rhymer certainly can help with that, as can so many of the other squadron helpers (like FCT) that also mitigate mistakes (though the added speed of FCT opens up new play areas for b-wing far beyond what good play does without). I assume your threat extension comment is for the initial closing of forces. Rhymer alone doesn't accomplish that. A reasonable fighter screen can be set up to cover medium range Rhymer shots, hence Rhymer PLUS intel. An early (sacrificial) A-wing pin is certainly still possible and worse can strip an intel ship away from your ball that you are relying on to get your shots off. Or it delays you a turn. Worth the A-wing. A single A-wing CAN'T pin a defuse squadron play. Just can't cover that much space. Furthermore, defuse setup demands more screening squadrons and more spread out squadrons. I can overwhelm opposing anti-squadron simply by being in too many places at once. Sure you take out a subsection, but if I've planned it right the damage is done. As for chasing a ship, we're talking about a very low percentage of cases where the ship is getting away falls inside a narrow range of distances where the effect is useful. Not a convincing argument.
  20. TIE fighters are better or equal per point in anti-ship stats than Adv. or Intel ships, while being FAR better in anti-squadron. Meanwhile, you don't need to fly in a ball. Intel doesn't help much when spread out. But spread out I can avoid heavy ship flak while using the speed of my squadrons to their strength, concentrating on targets of MY choosing while avoiding the enemy squadrons.
  21. You don't make a 10 TIE, 5 Bomber list better going to a 10 TIE, 4 Bomber, 1 Rhymer list. The point of going 10/5 is separate your ships. Once you put Rhymer in you either ball up or spent 8 points to increase the threat range of just a few squadrons. The ball is the primary problem here. Also, you're not diluting your force badly going with TIE fighters. They have respectable anti-ship stats and very good anti-squadron stats. If you don't live in a squadron focused meta then going in units of 1 TIE : 1 Bomber ups your anti-ship ratio at the expense of the anti-squadron. Mix n match to taste.
  22. So as not to further derail this topic, I started a specific anti-rhymer topic.
  23. I felt like the forums needed a controversial topic, so I stepped up to fill the need. People overuse Rhymer. He's a crutch impeding your growth as a commander and your tactics on the board. The argument for Rhymer is that he allows your squadrons to have a greater threat range while needing less tending. Okay, sure. Less tending. To me that reads as sloppier positioning. I can place my Rhymer ball poorly and it won't hurt (as much) because I used Rhymer. However, your bombers can be effective without Rhymer. Used properly, they can be MORE effective. First the basics. Shown in another thread about A-wings, it's fairly trivial to get a fast enough squadron into position turn 1, have 2 turns of firing on most ships speed 3 or less, a reposition turn on 4, then two more turns of firing. Placing the bomber out in front of the target vessel, most ships can not clear the squadron threat range in one move, and many even overlap the squadron (space barnacles). So in many ways, Rhymer only gets you 1 additional turn of shooting. Or does he? The problem with Rhymer is the ball. It creates a nice fat target to get pinned down or ship Flak. To avoid getting pinned down, people bring intel. To protect the otherwise weak intel ship they then bring escorts. Suddenly you have a big expensive ball that is losing raw efficiency, and careful enemy squadron play can start to pin specific ships breaking up the ball and synergies. Playing without Rhymer means no ball. Means no need for intel. They can pin a single bomber even when using intel, so why bring it if you don't need the bomber to be close to Rhymer. No need for intel means posing multiple threats and your own anti-squadron can focus on what you want it to focus on instead of covering your lynchpins. Playing without Rhymer means multiple ships can have squadron coverage vs just one ball. Those squadrons are harder to disrupt all at once being spread out, but can still come together on a critical turn. The Gozanti can be invested in to help tend the straggler squadrons that Rhymer used to keep relevant. The Gozanti cruiser IS 7 points more than Rhymer, but also provides ship activations, commands, better anti-squadron and an upgrade platform (including bomber command). While some of these effects also have a radius its still allows more diffuse positioning than Rhymer does. Rhymer isn't useless. In the AcesBall with Mithel it makes sense as you're already balling so why not? But in many more applications Rhymer is just covering up positioning mistakes while confining your deployment to a smallish area. I suggest packets of 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber. A nice round 25 points with good all-around stats that doesn't leave you out to dry vs no-ship lists OR squadron heavy lists.
  24. I've been of the option that squadrons aren't more powerful so much as easier to use (making them more powerful in most of our hands). The B-wing was just as good in wave 1 as it is now if you knew where to put it. But it was very unforgiving if you didn't as it could easily do nothing if it was always chasing the action (vs the action coming to it). FCT now make it easier to reposition from a mistake and allow it to keep up with the fleet expanding new options for it. Sure Bomber command, but the FCT means B-wings get used instead of people just using x-wings. Meanwhile, Rhymer doesn't actually make your bombers better, it makes them easier to use. The 8 points spent upgrading to Rhymer could be an extra TIE bomber. In my opinion, most people overuse Rhymer. The TIE bomber is plenty fast enough to make plenty of attacks as is and can be harder to stop when you don't force it into a group. A single Gozanti instead of Rhymer can help the stragglers along while providing activations, commands, and its own attack. A defuse bomber group means less need for Intel. Way back I did a point assessment on how to build a "balanced" squadron force where balanced means the ability to take on opposing squadrons while maintaining a decent anti-ship role. 2 TIE fighters and 1 TIE bomber is a great ratio. The package costs 25 points, has both anti-squadron and anti-ship capability (the fighters have reasonable anti-ship point efficiency as is) and the bombers have resistance to ship based anti-squadron fire. The TIE fighters do need to spread out to avoid the flak. Finally, by ditching Rhymer you have less tendency to have a giant ball of squadrons and can cover more ships with a similar force. Lose Rhymer. He's a crutch.
  25. Subs will be TIE phantoms. Though hard to model "true" cloaking in a game like this.
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