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TheoGrizz

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  1. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    I have been taking out most italics and underlines and capital letters because it can be construed as condescending and/or frustration. I am going to ask you to trust me when I say I am not intending to communicate either, and am trying to emphasize the more important parts that I feel are being overlooked. If I were talking, these emphases would be there, which is why taking them out makes communication through writing more difficult for me (because I'd rather my life be more difficult than be interpreted as rude). I am not trying to have my cake and eat it, too. You are conflating the two statements. One statement is "Her ability is always on and always applies." The other statement is "Her ability doesn't always matter and doesn't always have an effect." I have very distinctly used the words "applies/always on" and "matters/has an effect" on purpose (although the instructions say to apply modifiers, so it could be confusing, but I try to isolate which "applies" I am using in a given sentence to be just one or the other). Her ability is always on. Her ability always applies. However, unless you are playing card, and it is an event, and it is yellow, and it is the first such card you are playing that round, her ability doesn't matter, her ability does not have an effect, i.e. nothing has been altered as a result of her ability applying. Because it always applies. It's always on. It just doesn't always have an effect. It never has an effect when you are not playing a card. When you are playing a card, you have already chosen the card that you are playing and it is either the first yellow event you're playing that round or it is not. If it is, then that card, and only that card, has it's cost affected by Jyn's ability, which is always on. So, step 4 comes along. You must determine the cost using the modifiers from step 5, and if you can't pay for it then you can't play it. So you glimpse at step 5, and pretend that's where we are. You can tell that the card has a 3 printed on it. It's a yellow event, and you haven't played one this round, so Jyn's ability (which is on, and applies, at all times) means that the 3 is really 2. The 3 IS a 2 for purposes of playing the card. You will be able to trigger 'before you play a card' effects here. Alas, you have none that will be able to trigger. It is determined (we have returned to step 4) that the cost is going to be 2. You have 2. You can play the card. Step 5 comes along, and modifiers are applied. Any modifiers that have NO TIMING WINDOW are just applied, because they're applied, because they are going to be applied, and it doesn't trigger off of anything, so it's applied, outside of any timing window. The moment we are in step 5, the cost is decreased by 1. At the same time that those are already being applied, you can trigger before you play a card modifiers. But the trigger is happening WHILE those are being applied, not before. The before you PLAY A CARD ability is still happening before you the play the card, much like the card suggests that it would, but it is not happening before something that exists outside of timing windows, which the card does not suggest that it should. BUT HONESTLY: Forget it all. Forget everything above. Just, explain to me, using logic and/or the rules (dealer's choice), how something that triggers during a timing window can even remotely possibly be at the same time as something that just "is" during the entirety of that timing window. (EDIT EDIT: This is not meant to be combative (<-- the better word I couldn't produce), so much as it is just trying to approach the disconnect in a different way). Also, please reply only to what I said in this comment. I can't do this lumping answers together thing, because then I have to respond to things the others say if I disagree. Once you're on the same page, I can go back to being done (unless Vitalis comes back and is still not convinced).
  2. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    What I said on the first page of the comments was not the clearest way to say what I meant. That's why in my recent comment I said to replace "is decreased" with "is going to be decreased." The decreases all apply during step 5, after which the cost reverts back, which is what the definition of decreases is addressing. It's saying that if you reduce the cost of something, it reverts back to its printed cost afterwards. It is not suggesting in any way that ongoing abilities are "off" at any point during the game. What I meant was clearer in a later post when I said that there is a difference between when an ongoing ability applies and when it matters. Her ability is always applying, it just doesn't matter unless the card you are playing is the first yellow event you're playing in the round. Everything else you said had to do with moments that you weren't playing the card. I've never said that the discount affected cards in your hand when you weren't playing a card. Her ability is always on, the discount affects a card if it's the first yellow event and you are playing it.
  3. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    I am going to repeat something I said earlier. "It's always active. If you play a red upgrade, her ability is active. If you pass, her ability is active. Even after you play a yellow event, her ability is still active for the rest of the round, it just won't do anything. For every moment of the game, from set up to Jyn being defeated (or victory without Jyn being defeated), her ability is active. It is ongoing." The rules do not mention anything about ongoing abilities ending for the round. Yes, the decreasing part of Jyn's ability lasts only for duration of the decrease. All this says is that the card reverts back to its original cost after you play it. The decrease is the effect of her ongoing ability, it is not her ongoing ability. I understand what you're saying as far as the decreases apply during the same part, so replace the parts of my previous response to you where I said "is decreased" with "is going to be decreased." The fact of the matter is the ongoing ability is always on. The reason Reaping the Crystal and Padawan work together (and why K-2SO and Reaping do not work together for like a DH-17) is because Reaping the Crystal targets the card in your hand, during a point when the decrease (or increase) isn't applied. I think I'm done, though. There is more than enough explanation, there's an example, there's an altered version of that example, and there is also a screenshot from a main judge. And there is a disclaimer explaining that FFG could very well decide that it works, and it doesn't change the fact that right now, it doesn't. People are always welcome to play however they want in a non-competitive setting.
  4. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Well, even if you've played a yellow event that round, it still applies at all times, because it's always on. It's just that only the first yellow event can be the first yellow event, so it's the only one that gets the discount. And I, too, feel like it's clear. The problem was people trying to argue that because discounts were all applied during the same step that meant they were applied at the same time and could be put in an order, and then not accepting "ongoing abilities are always on" as an answer. So I had to get creative. I would certainly not start explaining with where I eventually ended up.
  5. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Forget the insurance company. Your parents are Calling in Favors. Regardless of whether you are a child or a full-fledged adult, whenever you're faced with a cost of at least $3,000, your parents give you $1,000 for it (only once every year). All they care about is the final amount you are being asked to pay. You also have a trust, Streetwise, and it's basically the same as the law, except because it's not a law, it's not ongoing, and you can decide when to use it for the year. Now, because Streetwise doesn't show up on the invoice, your parents don't need to know that you are going to use it, and you can still use your parents even if using your trust makes it cost you less than $3,000. I'm just trying to explain what the word "ongoing" on means: how something that is ongoing is always there even if it affects something at a specific moment, how something that is ongoing but affects something at a specific moment is necessarily prior to something that triggers at that moment, and how something that interacts with the queue (via interrupting it) cannot be before something that exists outside of the queue. And all I get in response is, "that doesn't make sense," in addition to more statements about basically trying to treat an ongoing ability like it interrupts the queue and should therefore happen when you want it to happen, more requests that I point to where it says it works like how I said, and more cycling back to the beginning when I say, "I can't point to where it specifically says it works like this, I can point only to how it can't work like how you're saying."
  6. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Her ability does exist outside of that sequence, regardless of whether or not her ability matters. There is a difference between when the ability applies and when the ability matters. Ongoing = always. It sounds like you're saying that playing the event is what activates Jyn's ability. That is wrong. It's always active. If you play a red upgrade, her ability is active. If you pass, her ability is active. Even after you play a yellow event, her ability is still active for the rest of the round, it just won't do anything. For every moment of the game, from set up to Jyn being defeated (or victory without Jyn being defeated), her ability is active. It is ongoing. When you determine the card cost, you're checking Jyn to see if she applies, not if she triggers. Is this the first yellow event I'm playing this round? If yes, then it costs one less. "Before you play" abilities are not triggered until you are applying modifiers. So the question isn't, "Does Jyn or Calling in Favors happen first?" The question is "Does something that's applied when modifiers are applied or something that can't be triggered until modifiers are being applied happen first?" Think of Jyn's ability as defining the context in which you are playing the card, and Calling in Favors as affecting the cost within that context. To illustrate... Your car gets damaged. For $4/month, your insurance company has a policy called Calling in Favors that pays $1,000 ($2,000 when living as a single person) of a $3,000 or more repair invoice every year. It is not a reimbursement; they pay it ahead of time. Your city has a law, Jyn's law, that requires repair shops to charge $1,000 less on the final invoice for all electric/hybrid cars the first time each car comes in each year (for which the shops are credited by the government on their taxes). You have an estimate for $3,000. You also have a hybrid car. The estimate was 100% accurate. The repair shop follows the law, of course, so the final invoice comes out to be $2,000. You send the invoice to your insurance company. They say they are sorry, but the invoice does not meet the standards of the Calling in Favors policy; however, you are still able to use the policy later that year if you need it and meet the policy requirements. You protest, showing them the estimate. They politely shrug and say, "I'm not sure what you want us to do. Yes, the total cost could have been $3,000 if you lived in a different city, but you live here, so it isn't. The law is the law; it always applies. And the law says the invoice is only $2,000, not $3,000. Until there is a change in federal law (see below), the policy won't work off of the estimate total." (From above) If FFG ever prints in a clarifications or FAQ that the two can combine for a 3-cost yellow event, then that will be the only reason it works that way. It's the same thing that it was with board state, an empty backup muscle, and passing. The only reason that exhausting backup muscle with no damage on it didn't count as changing the board state, and therefore counted as a pass, is because the book specifically said that it didn't (which it no longer says). That didn't change the fact that technically the board state had changed (the finite number of things you could do changed). So for now, until they print specifically otherwise, which they very well might, the above analogy is how it works. Also, just to get out in front of questions about how the analogy would apply to other cards... It Binds All Things, Streetwise, and the like, would be policies. Reaping the Crystal, Rearm, Well-Armed, and the like, would be more like rental agreements. And Padawan and K-2SO would be laws.
  7. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    It changes everything. You don't decide the sequence because it's an ongoing ability; it is automatic. The "at some point" you mention is immediately. Yes, her ability is a modifier, but it is still not a trigger. You get to choose the order of resolution only of your triggers. This is supported by the rules because the only section of the rules that mentions choosing the order of resolution of abilities--thus, the only part that grants that power--applies only to triggered abilities.
  8. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Based on the pattern of comments that you've 'liked,' I interpret your 'likes' as you saying, "Sure, I understand, but what about this?" There are a lot of opinions and arguments out there, and you want to be sure. I get that. But I want to draw your attention back to this comment you made towards the beginning. The picture of the Discord chat is exactly that: it is how a judge would call it. Not your hey-we-need-a-judge-ummmm-you judge, but a legit, that-guy-from-worlds-and-gen-con-that-people-always-reference judge in blue judge's vest. I can definitely understand wanting it to work that way, making her possibly a little more playable. I mean, it's not like I'm here to trample sand castles and dreams. But it doesn't.
  9. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    No. Your opponent cannot tell you the order in which you resolve your own abilities. The controller of the battlefield decides which player resolves his or her triggers first, not the order of those triggers.
  10. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    AH! No. Please do not spread this misinformation. The order of simultaneous abilities is not decided by the battlefield controller. When abilities are triggered at the same time, the player resolving them decides the order in which the abilities are resolved. The only thing that comes down to the player who controls the battlefield is which player resolves his or her abilities first when both players have abilities that are triggered at the same time. The chosen player then resolves all of his or her abilities that triggered (which includes choosing not to do a "may"), and then the other player does the same. Additionally, as I stated earlier, the section on "Simultaneous Abilities" starts with these exact words: "When two or more triggered abilities . . . ." There is no mention at all of ongoing abilities. The section on Simultaneous Abilities does not apply to Ongoing Abilities. Please see the picture from a Discord chat involving thegandork (by now it is common knowledge that he was the head judge at Worlds (well, I guess technically Jeremy was, but you know what I mean), but I'll mention it in case some didn't know). He uses the words "automatic" and instantaneous" to describe the 'speed' at which the ongoing ability takes effect, and that it is prior to when you can decide to exhaust something with a before trigger.
  11. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Oh. "Automatic" was the word I couldn't produce. I'm not sure if this is against Terms or Privacy because a cursory search found neither, but here:
  12. TheoGrizz

    Jyn Erso or Calling in Favors first?

    Yes, it is decreased for the entire duration that the card is being played; we agree. From the time that you decide to play the card, to the time you can trigger before effects, to the time you resolve those before effects, to the time the card is resolved. During all of that. While all of that is going on, the ongoing effect is "active." It just, is. I don't mean, "It just is, that's why." I mean, like, exists. It just... is. It exists. It's there. There's no time for anything to happen before it. It's ongoing. While you're checking your cards for before triggers, it's already happening. I have noticed that a lot of people--and I'm not saying this does or does not apply to you, this is our first interaction--get hung up on "before." They treat it like the word "before" instead of the way the game treats it, which is on p. 18. The thing must first be happening in order for the other thing to happen before it. I get why people get hung up on it; it's counter-intuitive: "I can do ABC before XYZ, but prior to doing ABC before XYZ, I have to be doing XYZ." Whereas this particular ongoing effect is just, "If XYZ then Q." So, yes, you still do ABC before XYZ, but you do it within Q.
  13. TheoGrizz

    A little off-topic...

    So, when I saw your post originally, I thought, "Do we have different eBays?" Yes. Yes, we do. I did not see it on the one that I use.
  14. TheoGrizz

    A little off-topic...

    I don't see any. There are 12 on the geek market. Some are "like new"; the only "new" one is a French edition.
  15. TheoGrizz

    A little off-topic...

    Exactly this. And it applies to most of the things we'd love to see. They had a third expansion (second full expansion) for WoW: The Board Game (not the Adventure board game, that one is different). But it got shelved indefinitely and they lost the license. I've considered getting a job in the mail room at either Blizzard or FFG, and Secret of Success'ing my way through the ranks, culminating in getting the Blizzard license back into FFG's hands. That involves a variety of things not in my skill set, though. For starters, I don't feel like I can pull off the fast elevator outfit changes.
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