Umbranus said: I think how RT has ruled it at some points it's cool: You roll random for something, and if you don't like what you get you can pay XP to choose instead. The same principle was used in RoB with the Ritual Fighter. I believe there is a pay to choose option in the Rites of Battle book. For a certain XP you can choose another history for your armor. So I think it's already covered. :-)

Siranui said: That would be true if we were dealing with genuine fully or semi-automatic fire, or marines trigger-locking their boltguns. However, the game defines 'semi auto' as about 3 shots in a round, and 'full auto' as 10 at most (or four whole shots in a combat round with a bolter!). This is clearly not blazing away with fully automatic, but one or more short, controlled bursts, or even just rapid single shots. Put like that, it makes perfect sense that *a superhumanly good soldier* [which makes real world comparisons about what can and cannot be done with automatic weapons rather moot] can put ten rounds on-target in 5 seconds. Even moreso when we consider that these 'super space guns' may feature all manner of stabilisation to counter muzzle-climb. An even better solution -if you want to nerf 'full auto' (and I use the term with reluctance) is to retain the to-hit bonuses (because more bullets in controlled bursts are statistically more likely to hit with at least one of them) amd simply switch around the DoS modifiers: One bullet hits for every DoS on semi-auto, and one hots for every two DoS for fully auto. I see where you went with this, but the logic is still a bit off. Yes, they will be better than an average GI holding the trigger on something like a SAW. But STILL they will not be more accurate than if they took their time with a single accurate shot. So the +BS modifier doesn't make any sense. The statistical advantage to hitting with full auto fire is represented in the number of bullets not the fact that it is easier to hit. So your statitistical approach to leaving the +BS doesn't make sense with the situation. The increase in chance to hit comes with the multiple applications of the given probability, not a change in the probability, that's how real life autofire works in probability and statistics. In addition, I do not see anything to support that the full auto function certainly does mean letting loose a 6-second barrage of fire. As a basic trooper can let loose a burst of full-auto while on the move in real life, but our played space marines must take a talent to be able to move and fire a full auto burst...it lends me to believe that is in fact a long term trigger grab.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I got about halfway through the posts before I gave up on the redundant 'Broken/Not Broken' comments about the Heavy Bolter with everybody hung up on it's damage statistics and number of hits. I think NEITHER of those issues are the underlying problem. I think the underlying issue is how Semi-Auto and, to a far greater extent, Full-Auto Fire work. As the OP said, look at ALL the bonuses to hit with the weapon. If you have ever fired a fully auto weapon, you realize that hitting anything with it is terribly difficult. Your spread is all over the place and your ability to hit is found in the number of rounds going downrange NOT the accuracy of the shot. So in my opinion the way to properly show this would be to allow the weapon's rate of fire do the hitting and not an applied +20 BS for firing on Full-Auto. Simple logic if you ask me. Full-Auto is -10 or -20 BS but more shots.

My answer to the original posters question: I guess it depends on what you are trying to run. Are you trying to run a combat system where people can see what Space Marines can do, or are you trying to run a role playing game where more than their physical stats actually matter? Points buy can show the combat abilities of a Marine well, and give you an idea of what the 'top end' of the system could be like. But if you are running a role playing game where you encourage your players to actually get into the genre and characters, then you really SHOULD stick to the randomization. It almost forces them to react to situations differently than what Rambo would...and find ways around their own weaknesses just as much as find them in their enemies. For me, it's randomization all the way.

Glad to see some people understand the concept of stealth beyond the idea of invisibility or 'not being seen'. One has to understand that if the enemy does not know where your forces are, then you are performing a stealthy operation. Regardless of how you achieve that effect, be it through sensor masking, sensor jamming(althrough it lets you know somebody is there...just not where), physical camo, electronic misdirection or strategic targetting of the enemies abilities to acquire intelligence...it all results in stealthy operations. That being said, Eldar CERTAINLY are stealthy. Their mode of getting to battles is either through hard to detect ships or webway portals...both...very stealthy. And once they are on site, their stealth is still present. As plenty of mentioned there are the holofields, sensor masking systems(mentioned in the entries for such items as the Nightwing Interceptor),sensor absorbant armor/cloaks(Striking Scorpions, Rangers) and also...one must not forget...psychic powers. Warlocks have the 'Conceal' ability in TT which is a stealth oriented ability, Farseers have pretty solid intelligence to 'hide' their forces from the enemy through divinations...and there have been plenty of mention in novels of Eldar using psychic trickery to hide their forces or hinder opposing intelligence(I seem to remember a force of Tanith fighting beside some Dire Avengers whom they thought were their own forces from long-lost Tanith). In game one would have to find some ways to make the Eldar a little more survivable than simply U:Ag. Reason being that all Space Marines come with a built in anti-dodge/parry ability called Killing Blow. Spend a Fate Point and for that round your attacks may not be dodged or parried. This means that the only way to NOT soak this damage is to hope for a miss from the Marine or a Protection Field. So perhaps there would be some way to enhance their survival rate by making them harder to hit, via a -WS/BS modifier to be hit. Perhaps the ability to still make accurate attacks while fighting defensively? Not sure, but something like this would probably be more functional than something Killing Blow can go right around.