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CaptainSabutai

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  1. guest469 said: Who says Chaos are the bad guys? They are the dissidents fighting for freedom against a tyrannical fascist regime hellbent on enslaving mankind for some nefarious purpose. Yes I know about the human sacrifices but I assure you that they are usually entirely voluntary and being sacrificed is considered to be a great honour that brings us closer to our gods. You ought to try it some time. Both sides have, by the standards of the early 21st century (easy for us to be sanctimonious with our comfortable, unthreatened first world existence) horrific methods, but then you can't say either Chaos or the Imperium are more moral then the other based on their similar methods, its their motivation that matters. The ultimate chaos goal of dissolving the entire f*cking universe usually tips the moral balance against them in my book (though obviously, chaos worshippers may not understand their masters true plans-like an honourable german soldier who ended up serving the nazis)...whilst the eternal oppressiveness of the Imperium's authoritarian theocracy (it is neither totalitarian nor fascist) would suck to live in, it beats dissolving into a blob of protoplasm whilst a daemonette ***** your soul forever...
  2. Cifer said: Hah, yeah BSG would make a good source! I do not have Xenology, nor have I seen references to said Necron infiltrators before, and agree such concepts would make them a far more interesting antagonist, though they'd still be far behind the entire Imperium in the list of antagonists I'd want in my game... Noone says you can't combine the two. Imagine a campaign in which you're trying to prepare a planet for invasion/conversion. You're working your way towards key figures to subvert... only to find they've already been manipulated by someone else. Someone definitely not chaotic, someone not leaving the slightest psy-trace for your sorceror. Someone who's obviously also planning an attack. Better revise your time-table or there might not be a planetary population left to corrupt... You still couldn't bribe them, or blackmail them or corrupt them to worship the Ruinous Powers like you could a servant of the Imperium, what you described above is a more interesting concept then mindless-zombie-necrons, but still more restrictive then a human opponent...
  3. jesusjohn said: Starscream, sorry you wanted belivable didn't you! Yep i started a thread i a round about way that was getting to the point of what is a belivable bad guy. Looking through movies they tend to be very 2d, however i'm going to put forward a couple that are intreasting, well to me anyway! John Smith from Se7en i would suggest tezzetch for him as a clever manipulator, shame there was no real back story for other than OCD goes off the deap end! Magnito for chaos undivided and he has a cool back story. The Maque De Sade, not a bad guy as such, but cosidered so by his contempories - Slannesh I'm having problems with Khorne other than the fella in Apocolylipse Now enough War pushes you over the edge. I think this is the thing when creating bad guys the looking at the list above i think that the last two have a lot of subtlty and grey area which would be fun to play. For me i think undivided has the most appeal as there is more wiggle room without an godly Archtype almost over riding any personality you want to play. Starscream, LOL! I had a vision of a clone of Horus striding into the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit: 'Coronation Abaddon? This is bad comedy!' Two great points raised there- one with the marquis de sade- is your character only evil from the point of view of the majority of society? who defines evil, the imperium with its love of genocide and oppression? Maybe he just thought he was having a good time! And with Chaos Undivided, you have far greater room for maneuver then with other Chaos Gods, which is why I put in Tamerlane as a Black Legion archetype, your character could be obsessed with committing genocide, he merely wants to do so in an efficient, focused way, rather then random axe-murder, which leads us unto 'Banality of evil' archetypes like Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich...
  4. Cifer said: @CaptainSabutai There's an important facet of Necron "society" you're missing: Necron Lords have a consciousness - and they're not limited to their metal bodies. In fact, as you may recall from Xenology, some are infiltrating imperial society. The Necrons were created by the C'tan. They obeyed. They evolved. They look and feel human. Some are programmed to think they are human. There are many copies. And they have a plan. Hah, yeah BSG would make a good source! I do not have Xenology, nor have I seen references to said Necron infiltrators before, and agree such concepts would make them a far more interesting antagonist, though they'd still be far behind the entire Imperium in the list of antagonists I'd want in my game...
  5. Also, whilst Abnett has worked on Dark heresy before, macNeill is a long-term GW design studio employee before becoming novelist, thus has gaming industry and writing experience...
  6. What about the Killing Fields didn't you like specifically? Have you read Dead Sky, Black Sun? Utterly subjective I know, but in the last year or two MacNeill's 40k related output has far outstripped Abnett's in quality IMHO. Whilst you will prise my Eisenhorn omnibus only from my cold dead hands, A Thousand Sons, Mechanicum and Fulgrim are far superior contributions to 40k lore , and better novels than Prospero Burns (Just a rip-off of a medieval story in its entirety!) or Legion (massively overrated, brave attempt at using an unorthodox structure, but the characters are so dull!), Abnett's enjoying his sweet comic writing wage too much and whilst I acknowledge his health problems over the timescale mentioned, it seems hes got to a stage of ignoring characters in favour of experiments with structure, which t is an indication of his genre-fatigue, Abnett hasn't the literary stature to pull off unorthodox novel structures convincingly...
  7. Dulahan said: How are Necrons any different from Skeletons and the unintelligent Undead, or Golems, or any other number of random unintelligent monsters in D&D? That is indeed their primary problem, too much like mindless D&D bundles of hit points and powers, no personality, individuality or variation, i'd hate to play a whole campaign where the only time I get to speak to the main enemy and discover what drives them is the last battle against the C'Tan boss, and if I was launching a Black crusade against them I'd probably stand off and nuke wherever they were located from orbit rather then attempt to engage them personally anyway! They're a good one off shoot 'em up opponent but have little roleplaying appeal IMHO...
  8. We have plenty of historical and fictional examples of groups considered morally 'bad' with hindsight cooperating for prolonged periods of time to acheive shared goals-at the risk of invoking a goodwin, Hitler didn't conquer most of Europe singlehandedly, so long as people don't revert to the 'Chaotic Stupid' portrayal of evil, there should be no problem. Playing a deathwatch game with a Kill Team of righteous Space marines, or a D&D party of all Paladins has an equal chance of degenerating into stupidity as a game of Black Crusade, as the chance of that occurring is determined by the maturity level of the players as opposed to the game being played . In response to the above question, I think the Loxatl from the Gaunts Ghosts series could make a good start for a chaos xenos PC, we know they can be motivated by greed by them appearing as mercenaries, they are capable of emotional bonds due to their 'anger-hunger' when one of them is slain, they have awesome flechette harnesses- they'd work quite nicely...
  9. Adam France said: CaptainSabutai said: I don't really get the obsession with Necrons in an RPG. They'd make good one off combat encounters for powerful PCs, but the only ones who'd engage in anything other then 'appear & kill 'em all' would be C'tan like the Deceiver, who would be so far above the power level of even DW characters it'd be unfair, and once you've done 'ZOMG, teh base has a necron tomb under it!' once the shtick would get old very quickly...if they do appear i'd rather they kept it as small a section as possible and concentrated on antagonists who have more variety in how they confound the PCs. This is why Chaos make such great Black Library ( and 40k RPG) protagonists and antagonists, their motivations are human and susceptible to negotiation and deceit as opposed to pure combat monsters... I prefer Necrons to Tyranids for rpg use. (Though I agree both present problems, as they are rather too combat oriented and need a bit of tweaking for rpg use imo.) Tyranids are very difficult to use in a varied way I agree, theres only so many times you can reenact the film Aliens! Unless you like all the old Genestealer cult stuff from the early days of the TT 40k wargame, that could be a very interesting game, but Necrons don't even have that-they could do with something like a 'Cult of the Living Steel', maybe a heretical Mechanicus offshoot...
  10. Adam France said: The problem with playing the bad guy in an rpg is that ... well essentially none of us can really get inside their heads, like we can with a more traditional good guy - even a borderline roguish good guy. Too often it just becomes a cardboard cut-out villain who gets to basically 'do whatever they want'. It doesn't make for good campaigns in my experience. It's short-termist, and parties usually end up locked in internecine warfare amongst themselves, or just hacking down anyone they feel like - while ignoring any planned missions. I'm not saying I only allow whiter than white hero-types, but setting out to play only villains ... I've never seen it work well - unless all you're after is a no-holds barred hack 'em up. In which case, yeah it can work - but it's pretty basic and quickly tiresome fare imo. YMMV I suppose. Well, thats inherently and clearly the purpose of making such a thread-to provide examples of believable bad guys in other sources that can inform roleplaying of such characters in Black crusade. By commenting on a Black Crusade topic, surely its indicative of 'buying-into' the concept of playing Black crusade, and understanding your group of players are mature and intelligent enough (My group are aged 28-35, so maybe that colours my perception, might be harder with kids) for it not to degenerate into a bizarre public airing of adolescent power fantasies. Why is being locked in internecine warfare amongst the group a bad thing? Why would 'evil' characters be unable to work as a team, plenty of violent conquerors and vicious criminals in real life have managed that. Why do we want to railroad our characters into following planned missions? Surely a sandbox approach of creating an area to play in, and letting the characters actions be motivated by their personalities rather then plot requirements would be more rewarding and long-lasting. I've played many an enjoyable Vampire campaign full of utter skulduggery and PC-infighting, and this model of play works...YMMV though, as always...
  11. Tunnelhckrat said: ....I wanna be a noise marine. This FTW! I would play a Noise Marine as they are meant to be portrayed, as if a member of Motley Crue took that final step beyond the moral pale!
  12. Whoops, I hit post before adding the comment! thats a good start, bio-war researchers and the like seem a good nurglesque archetype, can anyone think of anyone driven to madness and acts of evil by pain from a disease!
  13. Braddoc said: CaptainSabutai said: The hardest one is Nurgle worshippers I feel, I'm struggling for an example! The ponytail guy in 12 monkeys: killing the human race wiht some bio virus..could ahave been Nurgle's rot for all we know... javascript:void(0);/*1298907334661*/
  14. In the interest of creating rumour, innuendo, nerdrage and irritation , may I present the black library author Graham MacNeill's comments on being made aware of the existence of Black Crusade (by me!) on his Fortress of Hera Facebook page: 'i'd not seen this, no, but it looks fantastic. Who could resist being a Chaos Marine? I NEED to write an adventure for this system!' and 'Hmmmm, yeah... a Honsou adventure, that'd be fun...' After False Gods, Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons, and his portrayals of the Iron Warriors (DAEMONACULABA!), theres no Black Library author better qualified to work on fluff material on Chaos topics than him IMHO, Dan Abnett and Ben Counter's work on dark heresy was cool, and, whilst the above is thinner evidence then the boundary between warp and reality in the Eye of Terror, its something I'd like to see happen!
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