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  1. Frocken said: Hi All First post on this forum so bear with me if I don't follow "protocol". I got my AGoT 2e yesterday and cracked it open to see if the board was warped (it was) and when I had it open I decided to look at the Lannister/Greyjoy situation. I don't understand all the fuss, there's plenty Lannister can do to prevent Greyjoy rolling them. A defensive way is t o follow Kurbuttis example, consolidate power+ in Lannisport to build siege engine and move foot from Stoney Sept to Harrenhall with march +1. Use the hound if the ship is attacked and retreat into port, this ship can have any order. Turn two and no muster, place Support+1 in Harrenhall, Attack+1 in Lannisport and raid in port. Now let Kevan Lannister attack Riverrun with a strength of 13 (reduced to 12 if Balon is used) Turn two and muster, uppgrade foot to knight in Lannisport and upgrade foot to siege engine in Harrenhall, order as above and let the mountain attack Riverrun with strength of 17 (14 against Balon) I doubt Greyjoy can match this. Another version, if Greyjoy follow the script above (i.e. don't have march order in Greywater watch) then use all three march orders (use the parrot if need be) with the +1 in Stoney Sept. Start with voiding the march in Golden Sound, now Lannister can adjust his play after Greyjoy instead. Next move foot and horse from Lannisport to Stoney Sept. If Greyjoy have a single horse or less in Riverrun after all his marches are done, let Kevan Lannister attack with strength of 8 (7 against Balon). If Greyjoy moved all forces from Pyke to Riverrun then move one foot to Harrenghall and return the other foot and horse to Lannisport and follow the turn two example earlier. The strength will be 9(8) or 16(13). If Greyjoy isn't placing march at Riverrun use the parrot again to adjust. So I don't consider Lannister so poor after all, and there could be a bidding in turn two and Greyjoy loose the sword, or widling attack or whatever, it's Game of Thrones after all... All said, I'll probably still use Tyrell instead of Greyjoy in 4 player gamse as suggested, to get earlier pressure on Baratheon. Cheers Go (re)read Jhagens posts.
  2. jhagen said: the issue is not with the lore (as nice as that is) or the gameplay (thats good too). IT's the freaking playtesting. I played a half dozen games beforeit was clear that Greyjoy facerolled Lannister. In the hands of a dilligent and capable player. Lannisport falls on turn 2.(on a muster) No diplomacy needed, cause noone can reach Lannister to help them. FIRST MOVE, 2nd turn and Lannister's game is done. I suggest using Lannister,Stark,Tyrell and Martell for 4 player games. Add Baratheon for 5 player. and placing the Martell 5-man garrison in Riverrun for 6player games. My group gave this game another chance last night and switched out Greyjoy for Tyrell. This made the game feel much more balanced and even though one of our players is a chaotic wild man most the time AND we made him take the Lannisters, he still did decent and the overall feel was much better. Im not gonna bog it down with stats or a blow by blow. Baratheon did still seem to be in the best position but it get it to within acceptable levels so we can enjoy a strategy game in this genre. Jhagen, I am intrigued by your 4 player setup and I think I will offer that up next time to see if it will improve it further.
  3. MarthWMaster said: cadleo said: Also, the stats for the Jaime Lannister card are completely ridiculous. Strength 2 and 1 sword?!? He is weaker than the majority of the cards in the game!! Was this meant to be his stats after his hand was hacked off!? It doesnt feel like the person who put the stats on that card read a single page in Song of Ice and Fire. With respect, you're being extremely harsh by suggesting the designers haven't read the books. Consider that in this game, a House card in no way represents a character's skill in single combat, Jaime's specialty. Rather, they simply add a combat bonus to attacking or defending armies, which in game-world terms represents leadership and tactical expertise, while the sword and tower icons represent the character's ability to press the advantage and mitigate loss, respectively. These are not skills Jaime possesses, as evidenced by his deadly loss to a very green Robb Stark, and by Tyrion's frequent disparaging of his brother's lack of cunning. Similarly, Gregor Clegane's House card is not bigger than Jaime's because of Gregor's individual strength, but because his fearsome presence inspires courage and dedication from his bannermen, and his ruthless tactics obviously favor destruction over survival, hence the amazing three swords. Jaime is a duelist, and he excels in that sphere alone. As a commander, Jaime is competent enough to warrant a House card, but not one that is going to dominate the table. The LCG better explores his talent as a duelist. Have you read the books? Yes, in single combat Jaime was nearly unrivalled, but he was still a very skilled and competant commander. Tywin gave him 30,000 troops to ravage the Riverlands with and it was only by complete surprise that Rob Stark was able to defeat him, and still at considerable loss. Also, Gregor's men were not at all adept in the field and he was well known as an overly harsh and foolhardy commander. No, I think its simply a failing on FFG's part. If I seem overly harsh, its because I have already payed them for a game that is clearly incomplete. The LCG is balanced, fun to play and still stays VERY true to the books. Im not sure how they missed the mark with this one. Thanks for reposting that here, Jhagen.
  4. http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=66&efcid=28&efidt=584954 This is the link to the lengthier thread in the now archived forum.
  5. Hawker said: You have it the other way around. The 1st edition AGoT forum is in the archive and the 2nd edition is in the main forums. Or at least it is so for me. Yeah, after several months of it being incorrect they finally changed it. They have yet to finish playtesting the game though.
  6. Because managing a simple forum structure seems to be too much to ask from the folks at FFG. They are too busy churning out untested games for culturally popular genres to bother with little things like that.
  7. There is an extensive thread concerning this issue in the GoT first ed. forum. For whatever reason, FFG left that forum as the default one for months after their second ed. game was published. I wont go into it again here, but needless to say I stick by my original assertion that there are issues with not only the Lannister setup on the board, but their weak cards compared with the other houses. Solutions like blocking provinces or house rules to limit certain factions in order to create a better balanced game is simply not acceptable. FFG has my money and they failed to give me a decent game for it. They can fix it or I will continue to call them out on this. They make great games, but this one has some fatal flaws. @Kurbutti: Your example is incomplete. The Greyjoys can take several strongholds uncontested and there is nothing the Lannisters can do about it unless they get very very lucky. No special consolodate is going to help them when the Greyjoys have more castles. Please see the other thread for a more accurate depiction of the variations on a Lannister/Greyjoy start. @HellsPanda: You have clearly not read the books, as Jaime is a brilliant commander as well as personal fighter. By that logic, Gregore Clegane is some kind of General Patton according to his stats, which again is not the case. This is a huge fail by FFG imo, Jaime is one of the most important characters in the story. Switching Tyrell is the only feasible option I can see to try and change some of the imbalance, but my group was so annoyed by the flaws in this edition that we just went back to Civ and Dominion instead of doing FFG's playtesting work for them. I would really like to see an official FFG response to the concerns over imbalance in this game.
  8. jhagen said: since noone is offering house rules to fix the issue. (like i did a few posts ago) I have already paid for this game. The playtesters were paid with my money. They didnt do their job. I dont think its too much to ask for FFG to be the ones to fix it. I thought your ideas were a good start, but we shouldnt be burdened with fixing a game that was supposed to be playtested fully.
  9. Lol good post, Wraith, but I think youre wasting your breath on Joe. He will either not aknowledge what you and I are both saying or he simply doesnt understand it. Id love to get a play by mail game going with him and let him play the Lannisters and show us all how its done lol.
  10. jhagen said: My suggestion would be to leave Lannister out completely unless you have a 6 player game. Use Tyrell instead. This is not acceptible. properly playtest your games. please. We thought about doing this, but it felt wrong not having the Lannisters in. To their credit, FFG is an amazing company and this is the first of many games of theirs ive played that I ran into this problem. I am fairly confident they will fix this, but I would really like to hear any kind of official opinion on these concerns.
  11. Diplomacy in A Game of Thrones 2e, 4 player game. Turn 1: Lannister: Hey, Baratheon, you know that Stark is the real threat, why dont you go ahead and attack him. While I can offer you nothing tangible, I assure you this is the best move you can make. Baratheon: No thanks. Im going to go ahead and take over Dorne because no one can contest me. Good luck with the Starks. Winter is coming. Lannister: Hey, Stark, you know the real threats are the Greyjoys and the Baratheons right? If you let Baratheon go unchecked he will take over Dorne, and the Greyjoys are surely going to turn on you one day. Best that you attack one or both of them now. Stark: Well, it is tempting to wage a stalemate war with the Baratheons to keep them out of Dorne, but that really doesnt get me closer to winning and it makes me weaker against both you and the Greyjoys. And while the Greyjoys are close to me, I think the targets nearer you are more likely to be hit by them. Nah, I think I will just take all these uncontested northern provinces and then attack whoever is left. Good luck, and quit trying to kill my kids. Lannister: Hey Greyjoy, you know you want to attack the Starks right? I mean, the North doesnt have nearly enough castle for you to win with and there are some easy kills right here next to my capital that I cant defend, but ya know, do me a solid and go North instead and leave yourself less defended to me. I swear I wont attack. A lannister always pays his debts after all. Greyjoy: Shut up, *****. Ill be taking Seagard and Riverrun and if you have a problem with that I will give Cersei to the Drowned God after I give her to my dogs. We do not sow (or diplomasize).
  12. kauai1964 said: Combat DOES happen, with routed units providing a combat strength of 0. Keep in mind, however, that support may still be provided to those units, and house combat cards ARE still played. I believe those routed units are also placed on their sides indicating that they cannot be routed again. Should they lose when on their sides they are instead killed.
  13. Joe Dizzy said: But your original point was about a balanced game, wasn't it? And now it's about fidelity to its source. Isn't that interesting? It was about both. They are related.
  14. Joe Dizzy said: In fact, those three powers map fairly nicely to Greyjoy, Lannister and Stark respectively. Not all games start off fair for everybody. That's what makes them fun and interesting to play. They invite both strategic and diplomatic skill to get you the win. I didn't make the claim that the game was supposed to mirror the books, why would you think that? I have read them by the way, but I don't see what this has to do with anything. I wasn't making a point about fidelity to the source material, I was making a point about game design. How about we don't insult random strangers on forums? I'm sure we can all have a sensible and calm conversation about our thoughts and experiences on the game without calling each other names. It is possible to have different opinions about something without either party being wrong or "sheep" after all. The game is titled "A Game of Thrones". It is a given that it should mirror the books and it makes no sense at all to think otherwise, to the point of you arent even trying to bolster a real arguement here, youre just being contrary. Dude, it was a line from the book (which you claim to have read) and it was a joke, denoted by the tounge in cheek emoticon. :facepalm: zorzogoth said: What argument are you talking about ? You say playing the Lannisters is impossible, I say they can do well if played tactically and diplomatically and that what's this game is all about. The Lannisters are not an easy faction to play , so that makes them harder. But it's not impossible to win. I said it was unbalanced, and it is. The fact that the Lannistesr are not an easy faction to play is the first clue that something is wrong. Read the books. Well maybe you should play with a better Lannister player then. Or share with us your invincible tactics. Also I don't use the tide of battle cards since they are to random. They are mathematically at a disadvantage (even moreso without tide of battle cards). There is plenty of numbers to support this earlier in the post, I dont feel the need to repeat what was so effectively explained already. Scroll up. I don't think so, you'd first have to take Lannisport since Lannister can always build a fleet in the port or hide inside the port until a counterattack is possible. And your port is as far as they would get. A bunch of ships stuck in port for fear they will be sunk does not qualify as a Navy in my book. I played a new six player game in the mean time. I provoked Greyjoy to concentrate his force against me. He was very strong at first taking Riverrun and the Golden Sound. But I reconquered Riverrun easily . Then he wanted to take Lannisport, but couldn't because I had already a lot of support towards it. He did invade south of Lannisport, to threaten my support from Stoney Sept, but could not hold on to it. He then went for Moat Cailin, which was not defended well at the time, since Stark thought Greyjoy and Lannisters were too busy with each other, taking it for 1.5 rounds until Stark came down on him supported from the valley, his ships and Winterfell. When Greyjoy used his Victarion card, I made a counterattack in the next round to free the Golden sound. We played the game until round 8 were my Lannisters took Seaguard as 4th castle . We stopped at the end of that round since it was too late, but it was clear that Greyjoy would not win the game. He only had two castles left although his fleet remained strong, but he didnt have enough land units to take and hold on to other castles. You only took 4 castle as the Lannisters by turn 8 because you and the Greyjoys were locked in a mutually assured destruction pact. Yes. That was pretty much my main point. The setup is flawed so that both those factions get pooched. Lannisters moreso than the Greyjoy, but the inevitable outcome is that they are both too busy fighting eachother for scraps while Starks and Baratheons claim territory all around them at their leisure. Greyjoy is very strong at the start of the game, but once he has used up certain house cards or power tokens he becomes vulnerable to a counterattack. The only two housecards that were really fearful were the Victarion card (a guaranteed naval victory) and the Balon card (basically giving +2 str in any battle, while the enemy gets +0 str) . Damphear seems like he is powerful at first but has a high cost to play. The 4 str Euron card isn't very special either. So when Victarion and/or Euron/Balon are in the discard pile Greyjoy is vulnerable to counterattacks. His biggest strenght lies in the support his ships give him and his mobility. All he needs is a mustering card and all those castles he took will provide plenty of defence for that counterattack which is the only hope the Lannisters have. All he needs to do is defend. Not hard. If the Lannisters overcommit (because they can muster too of course) then they will be in an even weaker position against the Baratheons who can sweep in easily at their rear. Lannister has to defend Lannisport against Greyjoy using support from Stoney Sept and/or Riverrun. I think the battle between Greyjoy and Lannisport is pretty well balanced. Greyjoy starts strong, but is vulnerable to counterattacks and Lannister grows stronger in the following rounds. From there it all depends which alliances you make. You can have Stark put pressure on the Greyjoys from the north. Only if the Stark player is an idiot. Any fool can see it would be better to first conquer the North as the Starks and then he can dictate his own terms to either the Lannisters or the Greyjoys as neither of them can oppose him. Words are wind. Also I don't find the Lannister house cards that bad , like you describe, on the contrary. Gregor Clegane and Kevan Lannister are really very powerful in land combat. I may have mispoke about the house cards, its only the Jaime Lannister one that I have issues with, but it really is so wrong that it taints the game. There is absolutely no way to defend his stats when compared with the others guys. He is one of the most influential and showcased characters in the book, and he is represented awfully by this card. Period. The game seems pretty balanced this way. Greyjoys and Lannisters keep each other in check /stalemate. This weakens them both obviously. If Greyjoy concentrates his attacks against Lannister, the game becomes hard to win for both. Only if Greyjoy finds a way to hold on to his conquered castles he has a good chance to win. But this is not easy if the Lannister player defends himself well. Correct. This is the imbalance and it favors the Baratheons and Starks. Now if they would make an alliance between themselves somehow Lannister could use the resources for an attack towards the south or east over land. And Greyjoy could threaten Stark and Tyrell by sea. Perhaps working together would make both stronger. Yeah, and perhaps Tywin Lannister will **** me some gold. Until then, the math doesnt support that, and forcing two players to work together just to give them a chance to win is ridiculous. Since you refer to the books. If Greyjoys would have attacked the Lannisters in the books, the Lannisters would not have stood strong either, they had their hands full with the Starks. Though the Greyjoys would not have been able to beat the Lannisters in full scale land battles either. But they were certainly strong at sea. Incorrect. The Greyjoys were a shell of a house who would crash like waves on the walls of Casterly rock. Even after the Lannister armies were scattered all across the Riverlands and the Reach, the Greyjoys still chose to attack Northern targets even though Lannisport and Casterly Rock are just across the water from them. Yes, they were/are and should be stronger than any other house at sea, but again, this is hardly represented in the game. Basically by one house card and thats it.
  15. Joe Dizzy said: Well, you assume that the houses are supposed to start off balanced, but the game fails in doing so. I assume that the houses are supposed to start off-balance, and the game succeeds in doing so. I don't think we're much in disagreement here (except for the degree), it's just whether one considers imbalance between the starting positions a flaw or a design choice. I obviously consider it to be the latter. Uhhh, why would you assume the houses are supposed to start off-balance? That makes no sense at all. Also, if they did start that way, the Lannisters would be much more powerful than the Greyjoys if it were supposed to resemble the books which you dont seem to have read. Its like having a Lord of the Rings game and Sauron is a weak little ***** or Frodo having the same stats as Legolas or something. It doesnt represent the story correctly and it also makes for an unbalanced game experience. It fails on both those levels. However, if you look at the FFG Game of Thrones LCG, the houses are balanced just fine and the flavor of the books is there as well. Its not hard to draw a contrast. Im hoping FFG will fix this somehow, as the game is seriously flawed at the moment. I would really like an FFG representative to comment on some of these concerns. The opinions of the sheep do not concern me
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