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X_Shrike

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  1. Where does a bluff token go if it was discovered by the First Player Card? If a bluff token is discarded it returns to the owners hand to be used again. The First Player Card reads: "Play at the start of your turn during the placement phase. Choose one combat token on the board belonging to any player. Look at the token without revealing it to the other players, then return the token to its owner’s token pool." If you read the rules literally then the bluff token should go back into the general token pool. However the general theme of the bluff token is you always have it available. Is the bluff token's pool the player's hand?
  2. I would think they would be added together. What would lead you to believe that they wouldn't? Although in my game the GM doesn't like the achievement point system and doesn't use it. So I am not really familiar with it in action.
  3. Badlapje said: 3. for every enemy that wins the test by 2 degrees or more, he gains a level of fatigue (<--- this part is unclear in the book though. There is no maximum given, i'll send in a ticket concerning this). I interpreted that part to only trigger once at the initial power activation. No what matter what happens he is taking one level of Fatigue. If he fails his Willpower test by a degree or more than he suffers two levels of Fatigue. I am not sure if that is in addition to or instead of the mandatory level of Fatigue though. I don't really see the power as a battle of wills. It is more like the Navigator uses his will to control the power. If he does really well at it then it makes it harder for whatever is hit to avoid the effects. I guess it is possible for the power to still go off if he fails but, the rules on Opposed Tests pretty much say that nothing happens. As it doesn't mater if whatever is in the zone of effect fails their Willpower tests. The results of both sides failing an Opposed Test is a stalemate, nothing happens, or essentially a rematch. On a side note your response does help as it is another direction I can come at the debate from. I was reading your initial post as if you were thinking that I was the one arguing for this power to be a blast. The "Navigator behind hit by his own power" idea was an attempt to fight fire with fire. If he was going to try to read the rules like this then I was going to show the extent that his interpretation would alter the power.
  4. I appariate the help and input everyone is giving me on this topic. The Navigator player himself brought up that sometimes Navigators are born without a physical third eye, in support of the GMs version of the Lidless Stare. It may not actually be there or it just covered by skin and/or bone. I said in those the cases, where the eye is just covered up, that they use surgery and implants to expose it. He then claimed that there are still Navigators without a physical eye. He claimed the third eye is more like a metaphor for how the Navigators interact with the warp. It wasn't until thinking about it more, in this thread, that I thought of a counter for that. If you are going to try to play a Navigator that can still some how do his job without a physical third then you can't use any of the Navigator powers that actually mention using or opening a physical third eye. That is a whole other issue though. Bilateralrope said: Try this argument: - The RAW says "roll once for the Navigator". - Therefore that roll is both sides of the test to see if the Navigator is hurt. Thus the Navigator gets the same amount of DOS on both sides of the test - The RAW also says "If the Navigator achieves more degrees of success" as the trigger condition. This means that if both characters have the same DOS, the power fails. It doesn't go into the tiebreaker rules on page 232 (involving the characteristic bonus and lowest roll), though those rules wouldn't help either as the stats and roll are identical. - Since the Navigator doesn't manage to score more DOS than himself, he isn't affected by his own power. But, that would be trying to counter my attempt to show that interpreting The Lidless Stare is essentially a blast (15) does not make sense..... Our GM insists that because there is no facing in these systems that the Lidless Stare would hit everything that is within 15 meters from and that can see the Navigator. He backs this up by using the line, "though even then being within line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous." from the "Avoiding a Navigator's Gaze" section. His claim is that it doesn't matter if the Navigator couldn't see a target, the target can see him, and therefore can be hit. If it said, "though even then being within the line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous" he wouldn't be able to use that line as support. My objective with claiming that the Navigator would get hit as well is to show the logical fallacy of his argument. The Navigator is within those 15 meters and can see himself.
  5. Badlapje said: This is absurd. Agreed, if you at least read the first post you would know that this is how our GM in interpreting this power to work in this system. I am not defending this stance and made this post in an attempt to find help against it. Unless I can find something in the rules to back me up, he is not going to budge on that this power is some how a Blast (15). I was thinking of taking his interpretation to an extreme in an attempt to show that it is absurd. So if he wants to still claim that this hits like a blast, the Navigator would then be hit by his own power. Nothing in the rules say that Navigator's a immune to this power. The closest thing is that Navigator's don't gain Corruption from Warp Shock. If one Navigator did this to another Navigator it would work on the other Navigator. Navigators tend to have high Willpower so he would probably pass the check. The way the power should work is the Navigator, as a Full Action, rolls to see if the power even goes off. Whatever the outcome he is gaining at least one level of Fatigue. If he fails by a degree or more then he gets two levels of Fatigue. If he succeeds everything, friend or foe, that can see his third eye has to make its own separate Willpower check. This should be at least a Flamer arc and at the most 180 degrees "in front" of the Navigator. To pass this check you need to get more successes than the Navigator got on his roll to see if the power goes off. If you were warned to look away or are just unaware of the Navigator you get a +30 to your roll. If you pass then nothing happens, if you don't then you are at least going to take some damage and get stunned. At worst you are going to take a lot of damage, get stunned for longer, and then roll to see if you just drop dead. Provided that the target is smart enough to realize this. This is also assuming that whatever is in this area isn't part of the groups that are immune.
  6. Errant said: Navigators are immune to Warp Shock. Only thing I can find on that is that they just don't gain corruption from Warp Shock. I do not believe that makes them immune to Navigator powers. Unless I am misinterpreting your intention.
  7. Although thinking about it again, since it is a blast the Navigator is in the center. So he would be seeing into his own eye and it mentions nothing about Navigators being immune to it. I could argue that interpreting the rules like this would mean the Navigator would have to be rolling against himself or die.
  8. I made sure they were aware that it is a Full Action and the GM mentioned that he can't be wearing a helmet to use his eye powers. Although everyone appears to have missed that is causes at least one level of fatigue and two if he fails by two or more degrees. The Into the Storm book has additional powers. Corrupting of the Flesh, Scourge of the Red Tide, and Stupefy the Soul all reference Pg. 180 in Rogue Trader on how to avoid a Navigator's Gaze. However Immolate the Soul actually says that the power uses a 30 degree cone and eventually becomes a Flamer and then a Heavy Flamer. Errant said: Which also means that nobody can move up ahead of him for fear of being drawn into its effects. Wouldn't that make it an Extended Action then or like Suppressive Fire?
  9. Errant said: The Navigator makes an Opposed Willpower Test with anyone looking into his Warp Eye. The part your GM quoted is in reference to allies being able to look away from the Eye's effects if warned. Your plan was fine, if you couldn't see the Eye you wouldn't take damage. Give your GM my condolences for realising just how powerful Navigators are in combat. I was arguing this but, he didn't want to budge. Then someone commented it was like opening a portal into the Warp and the Warp doesn't care about material barriers. Everyone that read about the power knew how powerful it was. The first thing our Navigator did was get Master in it. Our GM was even talking about how fun it would be to throw one at us. I have asked elsewhere about this and a few thought this was just a way for the GM to try to balance the Lidless Stare. This might just be a symptom of a bigger issue on how senses work. Since the game has nothing about facing, even if a target is shot from "behind" it would get a chance to dodge. The only way to prevent this is to conceal beforehand. I don't think we have ever tried sneaking up behind a target in combat because of this as well.
  10. My GM interprets this power as essentially a 15m blast. He says that is how it works because of the line "even then being within line of sight of the Navigator is dangerous." and that there is no facing in this game. The idea is that the Navigator's skull doesn't act as a barrier. I would think it would make more sense if it was more like a flamer but, the rules mention nothing about what angle to use. This became an issue because we were funneling some Orks up a ramp. The plan was for my character to use his flamer as they rounded a bend and then our Navigator to use his master level Lidless Stare them if they got too close. He was infront and to the side of me so, in theory none of use would get hit by my flamer or see his face. Well I open up with the flamer and then he tries to use Lidless Stare. That is when the GM said that everyone around him, the whole party as well as the Orks, were hit due to his interpretation. I am not sure what to quote to argue against this as it seems against the spirit of the power.
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