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DemonNiko

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  1. Sorry, I personally would have to agree with BGG's majority. Any more is simply overthinking it. If you wanna be nerdy about it though, he can still shoot you. Now in the old version, you didn't have ranged attacks except in the cases of guys like the archer or the ninja and so you would have been.... no wait, you still would have been overthinking it because it just wasn't that important. Next thing you people are going to tell me is that you shouldn't die when falling down the bottomless... oh wait, they already pulled that... (notices the disturbing lack of a facepalm smiley) I mean if you want to go nuts, then he's still able to use ranged and magic. Disallow all close combat cards for that conflict if you're on seperate sides of the chasm.
  2. As one of those Trolls, and having been extremely vocal about how much I hated the combat system, I take offen... Ok I'm lying, I think it's great. Call me a Troll all you want in this particular instance. Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to try and jury-rig a combat system by myself. Still hate determination tokens though... Now if I can just get them to print it on that fancy glossy paper that they make the rulebook on and pack it in the box with the other rules I'd be set. ...oh, and that last bit of the sun track... I hate that too...
  3. Xiayose said: DemonNiko said: May I suggest an answer to this? You've got all kinds of cards and tokens all over the place in this game anyway, what's one more? Keep the door open card in front of you for as long as you're in that room. put it in the discard pile when you leave. Minimizes bookkeeping and allows you to not have to avoid the logic fallacy of "why should I have to open a door if I just opened it and am trying to get through it? The only problem that might crop up with this is that keeping the open door card in front of you until you leave the room reduces the chance for other players to get through doors. It might be better you use some token that is put on a character sheet to indicate they have opened their door. Well in all honesty you shouldn't have it in front of you all that long. I'll give an example: I try to open the door, and I get an open door on the first turn. I place the open door card in front of me and try the porticullis. I fail on the porticullis and so I keep the card in front of me until next turn. Next turn I ignore the door since I've got the card in front of me and try the porticullis again. This time I make it, I move into the next room and discard the open door card. Unless the door deck is *really* small; it should inconvenience no one because you shouldn't have to reshuffle the deck that often. Let's use a similar example. I've gotten the door open on the first turn, but after 3 turns I just can't get that porticullis open so I give up and go back out the way I came and try to find another route. As soon as I leave that room I would discard the door open card which means it would close up after itself when I left. This should also inconvenience no one unless the deck of door cards is stupidly small and needs to be shuffled constantly. If you're holding onto that card for longer than 5 turns, you're just trolling the other players and deserve to die in that castle for wasting all that time. That being said, I could totally see tokens being used instead, but I personally wouldn't like it because someone's bound to forget they have a token in front of them and confuse it with something else. I'm easily forgetful with that stuff and so it's just not good for me, but I'd say go for it if it works for you.
  4. Do you know what a handicap is? When you go bowling and because you suck so bad at it they give you a 20 point handicap it means that they're giving you 20 free points so you have a chance at winning against them. Determination Tokens do the same thing, they incrementally give you a 1 point per token handicap so that you will be more likely to win at the task. In the old version of the game, if you had a 4 strength, it pretty much meant you had to be more creative about getting through the dungeon because you knew that you couldn't open that porticullis except by a miracle. It meant you didn't waste time trying to screw around in the same room unless you were forced to. With Determination tokens you're instead telling the players "Don't worry, you just keep wasting time with that bridge or porticullis because if you're determined enough, then it'll just fall over eventually." In the old version, (the starting) characters were more or less balanced because they each had strengths and weaknesses and thus different playstyles. Who needs a playstyle when every task you have a problem at you can just barrel through eventually. That's not game design, that's being lazy. Dammit, ranting again... I don't like the idea of carving rules *out* of a game, but I don't see a choice.
  5. May I suggest an answer to this? You've got all kinds of cards and tokens all over the place in this game anyway, what's one more? Keep the door open card in front of you for as long as you're in that room. put it in the discard pile when you leave. Minimizes bookkeeping and allows you to not have to avoid the logic fallacy of "why should I have to open a door if I just opened it and am trying to get through it?
  6. Steve-O said: That may be true, but your original argument was that the new combat rules are no longer easy to explain to new players. As someone who has not played FFG's DQ, nor even read through the rulebook online, I have to say his explanation was pretty simple. As simple as the original DQ? Maybe not, but certainly not "a mess" as you assert. Also, as far as the determination tokens go, if you really don't like them that much I'm pretty sure you could house rule them out without too much difficulty. I like my DQ fast, hectic and prone to sudden death just like the next guy. Based on all the reviews I've read so far it sounds like the new version still has that element, but I'm sure removing determination tokens would only make it more hectic and sudden death-y. No particular issue with that idea here. You got me there. I still think it's a mess, but I should have added that compared to the old system it is a mess to explain to players, which means I am using more as a litmus test. On it's own, never having played the game before in my life, it would probably have given me a fresher perspective on things and I'd have been more willing to accept the idea of having stacks of cards all over the place in place of combat. Actually I'd like to get a sense of perspective from someone who either played through it at Gencon or bought it at con and is playing it currently. How long does one combat take? In the old version, combat lasted at most 10 minutes, and that's if they were screwing around making jokes at the time. It was really meant to be more of a means to and end rather than this large aspect of the game. Basically you drew a card "Oh no! Monster!" Then you played the equiv. of RPS for a couple of minutes trying to outthink your opponent. If you won, yay, you passed on to the next turn and hoped you made it out alive. Now it's turned into more of a card game inside of the board game with attacks, counterattacks, deathblows and all that jazz and it just seems like too much work for something that is meant to be a means to an end. I guess what I'm trying to ask without getting too wordy is "How fast is this little minigame and do you *honestly* feel it doesn't slow down the game?" If you can tell me without telling me "It's not that bad, just deal with it" that it runs almost as fast as combat in the old version, then I'll concede the point and be a little less critical of that aspect of the game. Yeah, if I did buy it, I'd probably cut out Determination and that stupid sun track killing the game early idea. It's a cheap mechanic to increase kill rate.
  7. It is holy, just not in the way you think, and I certainly don't mind the discourse, when it actually says something about what I'm saying instead of trying to argue something else or tell me that it's basically me being a luddite for feeling that this game should have been completely renamed and not trying to underhandedly try to push my nostalgia button. By saying it is DungeonQuest, you expect some sort of consistency between the two games. Descent is basically HeroQuest with more rules and FFG character fluff. You didn't see them trying to get the license from Milton Bradley and brand the **** thing Hero Quest, now did you? And I apologize for thinking you were following me around, just seems like after I post you were right behind me. It's a lil' stalker creepy. The original game is most definately not perfect. That game needed limits. My favorite example is something not in the rulebook that FFG put in and makes a lot of sense. I know because I house-ruled it years ago and it works. 2 searches max, then move. Otherwise lil johnny knows-no-better sits one room away from the exit and searches all day till he gets bored and leaves the game taking every last bit of treasure in the room pile with him. Here's another problem with both games. Rules for tiles. You want complicated? try going to the rulebook every 5 minutes because you don't have all the rules for the **** tiles memorized. It's holy in that several elements of the game were sheer simplistic perfection, and they let you wrap your head around the concept of going to the rulebook for tile and card clarification. Combat. I keep harping on about it but it's my beef. It only came with 6 cards, not a deck, 6. Those cards had a diagram based on what you played vs what the opponent played, repeat until one of you dies. Now you want me to take this deck of cards, look at three seperate stacks of cards, move them around a bit and hope that he dies before I do, and that's not even counting power cards on both sides which add another layer of rules onto that particular combat. Now maybe the guys at the FFG booth do a better job than me at teaching people to play games, but I can't help but look at the glazed over look on my fellow player's faces when I have to explain all that hokum to them. For criminy's sake it even took me more lines to explain the summerized version of those rules than it did for me to explain old DQ. That's not fun! That's Magic: The Gathering! Part of me wants to scream "yo dawg, i heard you like games so i put a card game in your board game so you can play cards while you play your board game." You can keep telling me it's not that big a deal, but to a lot of players, both old and new, it's going to be. I actually *like* playing with other people, and I don't see this ever being a part of my group like the old one is. I have players who will sneak and plot against each other just to play a game of the old version. I'm constantly showing the old one to groups of people who had never played it before on the east coast. I could never see doing the same with this version. To use the same analogy, It's like taking the words of Jesus himself and handing them to Anton LeVay.
  8. Aaaaaaaand you did your best to shoot past my point, but hit it tangentially. I don't remember saying that all the games were interchangable or particularly compatible. I said that the game re-designers forced in crap that is proprietary, and while useful in other games they make, is unnecessarily forcing their design elements on a game that already existed and while needed a few small house rules (can't search more than twice in a row) and not a complete overhaul of the game's engine just to make them feel like they contributed something to the design process. "The decision to use Melee, Range and Magic traits is a design philosophy for FFG, it does nothing to make DQ any more or less compatible with the other Terrinoth games." Here, let me bold it for you: "The decision to use Melee, Range and Magic traits is a design philosophy for FFG, it does nothing to make DQ any more or less compatible with the other Terrinoth games." It doesn't need to be there, it's a design philosophy that correlates into their terrinoth settings. For a game like DungeonQuest, it has to be shoehorned in because it doesn't frakkin' belong there, thus making combat and other elements of the game far more complicated than they should be because FFG needs to make sure it belongs to them now. Another design philosophy of theirs is that if you're going to put in some arbitrary attribute, well then you have to give the PC's power cards or what's the point? Works great in Descent, Works great for Arkham Horror (and before you start in, I know they don't call it melee, ranged and magic in arkham horror, too bad they basically mean the same thing in terms of gameplay in that you get spiffy powers and gimmicks based on your charater's affinity in whatever the attributes *are* called), but it has to be forced into DQ, because as the guy who's been stalking me around this board pointed out, it's a "re-imagining". So was Battlestar Galactica. You know what I got out of watching BG all the way through? Baltar is Jesus, and 6 is Mary friggin' Magdalene. (ok, so that's not *exactly* how it went down, but it might as well have been and it's also not my point and I don't wanna get bumped for going off-topic) I'm used to having to put in little house rules to make a game work better, not chop them out like a butcher going at a side of beef. If I bought this game, I'll have people asking me every time "What are the numbers for on that sun track thingy?" and I'll have to tell them every time to just ignore them, they're a crappy rule idea that isn't fair to anyone playing the game, because one die roll should not completely ruin everyone's enjoyment of the game. If I wanted to play a game where 3 turns before it's over someone can basically say "Rock Falls, everyone dies." I'd be playing a lot more games of FATAL You know what else they'd be asking me? "Why is there 4 pages of combat rules?" "What do you mean I have to go on the forums for rule clarifications?" "What's Deathblow and why can't we do it every turn?" and I'm going to have to stop the game for a half an hour while I pull cards out of the combat deck, show them what the little symbols and numbers on the cards mean, look at their confused and now very bored faces, and give up and tell them this sucks and they should play Rock-Paper-Scissors and see who wins. I have players who can happily understand why they should roll a d12 and roll under an attribute. They didn't need Determination counters, probably because they aren't kids with Down's Syndrome. I'm done ranting now, now keltheos can stop following me around from thread to thread to tell me I should just deal with it, because he's right, if I don't like it, I shouldn't have to buy a game I think is bad. This, however, was a thread about why old and new are different, and not necessarily in a positive light. Pretty much everyone who tries to argue misses the point i'm trying to get across in their fanatical fanboyism instead of looking at it with a critical eye. I was right up there with them in how badly I wanted this game but then FFG put the rulebook online and I actually read the **** thing... *twice* I showed it to my wife, even she thinks the new rules suck. I didn't go to GenCon, I didn't drink the kool-aid, I just looked at it from what I've played and from a game theory angle and it's just plain bad.
  9. DoomTurtle said: Combat is simple. Each play a card. Lower number looks to see if the card that beat them can be counterattacked. If not, they lose. If so, play more of that type to win. Stop there. If combat went "play a card, lower number takes 1 damage. Ties both take damage" you would have sufficiently replicated old DQ's combat system as far as I'm concerned. Are all the rest of those instructions really necessary?
  10. I keep thinking that FFG decided early on that a 15% survival rate was just way too low for a game they were going to be remaking, so they thought they tack on a bunch of handicaps on the player cards to make it not so hard. It looks like combat was too brutal in the old version, so they had to tweak it and make it so the player could lay the smack down after a turn or two and beat the monster. Determination tokens are the handicap they tacked on because DQ has incredibly brutal attribute ranges and it's entirely possible that you could be stuck in a room for 20 minutes just trying to get that porticullis up. "I can't open the door!" "It's ok, you just keep at it and eventually that door will just fall over because you're so determined" "Yay!" Everything FFG makes now has to wirk with Runebound and Descent, so we have to shoehorn in melee, ranged and magic, so we'll give them all power cards now that do even more stuff to help you survive. Finally, it looks like after they'd finished tweaking it and ran it through playtesting, they found out that people are winning too easily, so let's just throw in the option to force the game to end early and we can bring back the 15% survival rate by screwing all the players over at the last 3 turns. Hero is 2 tiles away from the exit, he'll make it on the turn just before the doors lock and the monsters eat him, but in a bizarre twist, Johnny on the end rolled a 1 at the start of the turn and the doors closed early, killing everyone inside. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? That's not pushing your luck, that's getting pwned because the idiot at the end of the table made a crappy die roll. I've always had to house rule *into* DungeonQuest, not carve rules out of it like a deranged OB/GYN doing a c-section. Granted, these are just my opinion, and we all know who has those and what they all smell like, but it just doesn't seem like they really thought this through and are hoping we'll buy it for nostalgia and not notice that it doesn't exactly stir up all those squishy feelings.
  11. I get that you couldn't copy the GW version to the last detail, and that you've got this quirky little gimmick of melee, ranged, and Magic, but you basically took a combat system that was little better than rock-paper-scissors and turned it into... a hot mess that is now no longer easily explained to a group of players. What, Leap Aside, Slash, and Mighty Blow along with a diagram just wasn't complicated enough? Oh, and what's this determination token garbage? "Whaaah, I can't make it out of the pit trap so you have to give me a handicap." Seriously? Seriously? I was kinda hoping to enshrine my old version of the game and reduce the wear and tear on the poor thing, but I guess it's not meant to be...
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