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Blood Pact

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  1. Wow, you guys just keep moving the goal posts don't you? First it's just the officer corps of the navy, now it's half of them. Fallacious arguement is fallacious.
  2. If you want to complain about impossible psuedo-science, complain about Depleted Deuterium.
  3. zombieneighbours said: Actually, on this one i have to disagree slightly.It isn't sexist to want to achieve equality. I mean, if you think that a peice of fiction is glorifying masculinity and degrading feminity based on the authors prejudices, then actually, turning away from that is probably a very good thing.Now the reason that i think trying to change the 40k setting is a bad thing is that in truth, 40k doesn'r glorify the imperium, as a whole. The setting maakes it very clear that it is a bigoted, ignorant and evil theocracy, which dominates through fear and repression. Every aspect of the imperium repesses freedom and chokes any form of development. The cult of masculinity is tied up deeply in that, and the cause of many of the issues of the empire, and i think you loose a little of the setting punch if you start lightening it up, by removing in setting sexism and other forms of intolerance. It's a bit sexist to make this much of a fuss about a ficitonal game and demand that it all be changed, to allow female Space Marines, just because. And as for accusations about sexisim in the Imperium, well no it's not sexist, but it's not like this is the first time people have said that, just because only males can become Space Marines. And it's a really stupid accusation to level.
  4. BaronIveagh said: Well, on the first, that's not actually, true. The Captain, the helmsman, and every astropath on board would also have to know, since astropathic communication would require correct 'routing' information, the captain would need to know his real destination in order to correctly navigate the solar system he's going to, as would the helmsmen. The other problem is the Eye of Terror. Calixis boarders Scarus, which is a bastion agaisnt incursion from the Eye. Therefor, anywhere in the sector, the Eye would be visible to the naked eye, even from the ground, considering it's size. All a void born would have to do is look out a veiwport to realize that something is up if the Eye is really, really small and in the wrong direction. The multi-stage trick would work as long as no one ever comes back from the Crusade. Okay, I'm sorry to be rude here, but this is part of the problem. People making assumptions that are frankly quite stupid. How visible do you think the Eye of Terror is? Sure it covers a whole galactic sector, there about, but that doesn't mean it's actually visible with the naked eye all the way out on the Eastern Fringe. I'd dare say it isn't even visible from the Calixis/Scarus/Ixaniad sectors. Consider how huge the Sun is relative to the moon, but the relatively small distances involved (on a galactic scale) make them both appear to be about the same size in our sky. If the Eye of Terror is visible at all, it likely looks like just a star. Helmsmen don't involve themselves with warp navigation, that's all on the Navigators, who can probably be counted on to keep quiet. Astropaths are a bit more iffy, since they only need to direct their communications toward the next relay, and not the actual destination. Presumably there's a relay on the Segementum Obscurus side of the Warp Gate, which negates the need to inform all of the Astropaths. And we already covered how supply lines work in real life (and would probably be handled for the crusade), so not every tramp freighter captain needs to know the secret.
  5. That is a more accurate representation of a real life military supply chain too. It's not one truck (or in this case, ship) delivering them all the way from the manufacturing source all the way to the front lines. They take it to a primary supply centre, where another truck (ship) takes it to a depot closer to the field, where another after that takes it all the way to the front. With likely a lot more stops in between. Sadly, people are assuming the Imperium is a whole lot stupider, and that everyone knows a whole lot more than they sensibly should.
  6. Most imperial governors, nobles, and even Sector Governors aren't likely to know about the Jericho Reach at all, let along in general. Not to mention having more pressing concerns with their own affairs, like merchantile interests and actually governing their domains. While the Inquisition and Commissriat will mercilessly kill anyone who can't keep quiet. Plus, terms like "Jericho Reach" and "Achillus Crusade" could be OOC terms, while in character references to the locations could be entirely different.
  7. zombieneighbours pretty much got it spot on, though I'd suspect that even before the end of the Age of Apostasy there were non-militant orders of the Brides of the Emperor.
  8. Adam France said: Which doesn't seem to be the case. The whole point isn't to convince the grunts - they fight where they are told to. It's to fool their masters; the nobility, the landowners, the planetary rulers, and Sector Lords even. The sort of people who know for a fact there's no lost Imperial Sector (named Jericho) in the Halo Stars region the Margin Crusade is being fought over, and indeed would know where Jericho used to be, where the Tau Empire is, and possibly even where the Hadrax Rift thingy is.It would not work. I posit that you sir are flat out wrong. There's absolutelyt no reason for the nobility, landowners (uhm, definetly no), planetary rulers, and Sector Lords to know what the Tau are, where the Jericho Sector used to be, or about the Hadrax Rift. For one thing, all that **** is on the other side of the galaxy, for another they have more important matters to concern themselves with in the majority, like ruling their planets/sectors, and managing their economic concerns, not searching out every scrap of lore on some dirty crusade going on in the next sector. As for why some enterprising 2nd officer wouldn't have blown the whistle by now, well the Commissriat and Inquisition both have a well known habit of killing people who don't know how to keep their mouths shut. Remember that the former doesn't just stand around looking scary and waiting to shoot people, Commissars are actually supposed to perform investigations and such, so they can nip rebellious commanders and alien or chaos influence in the but, before the whole regiment is consumed. While Inquisitors could have people absolutely everywhere. Another detail that people are failing to consider is that it isn't called the Jericho Reach in character, at least around the people who aren't in on the secret. Likewise with all the other telling terms.
  9. But to make a serious reply, Sisters of Battle, or really any female of the Dark Heresy (or Rogue Trader) careers can easily fit their way in to a Deathwatch series. In the case of the former, the woman can simply be a Throne Agent, or even an Inquisitor herself, which means she not only has the authority but the independence to act on their own and with the Deathwatch for whatever reason. They don't even necessarily need to be from the Ordo Xenos, since an agent of the Inquisition could find all kinds of cause to work with, or call upon, the Deathwatch. While a Rogue Trader could have some Marines on their ship with them, as a part of their obligation to the Imperium, or be working for the Inquisition themselves, since the RT careers aren't necessarily restricted from DH. And Ariolan, yeah the stances really are irreconcilable when you start throwing around things like "the female problem" in regards to those of us who merely want to play the game true to the setting material. And to pre-empt the inevitable comment about using XY females, cause I've seen it several times... well I hate to be the crass one this time (AK-73 will be mad that I stole his job) but in the real world, being an XY Female is a genetic flaw. I'm sorry if anyone here doesn't like reading that, I have no problem with any member of our GLBT rainbow, but XY Females wouldn't need to go through horomone therapy or have their ovaries removed if it was an entirely healthy way to be born. And with that out of the way, I'll get to my primary point, which is that the Space Marines aren't likely to begin accepting people with genetic flaws.
  10. And lo there was to come a third stupid thread about sex/gender and Space Marines. And the Emperor raged and gnashed his teeth upon the Golden Throne. And his Angels of Death, the Adeptus Astartes, marched forth to destroy the topic once and for all. While the noble Sisters of Battle were left to wonder what the **** was wrong with playing one of them. And the Emperor did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and anchovies, and orangutans...
  11. SpawnoChaos said: I would use the 2 missing Primarchs and their legions to allow for this notion. Pretty much allows full autonomy on the possible creation of female space marines. This has actually been a fan theory for a long time. Though more often it's only one of the mystery legions that's flagged as being all female, with a female Primarch of course. And as for why, well there's cause both reasoned and retarded. For the latter just look at the last time this topic became a major issue. More than a few people were posting to the thread accusations that the game was both incredibly racist and chauvanistic. While there may be some cause for the former, even if I think the specific example of the Blood Angels all being tall, blond haired, supermen is nonsense, the latter is utter crap. Based entirely on the premise that Space Marines are the premiere fighting force of the Imperium, and can only be male. While in some of the novels, such as Gaunt's Ghosts, it's mentioned that women attaining a high status in various organizations (in this case the Commissriat) is rare because of the added difficulties they face, this is merely an acknowledgment that a dystopian future still suffers from the same trends that we have in our modern time. Which I think touches upon another issue, that the Marines are the best the Imperium has, and there's frankly a bit of jealousy over the fact that they're all male. I think this does a disservice to the Sisters of Battle, myself. Besides, the Imperium being an absolutely humungous place, I'm sure there are planets that have female dominated societies. Some female posters have also came out and said that they, or other female players that they know, wouldn't be comfortable playing a male character. Well I'm quite alright with them houseruling female Marines in to existence for their game, I personally would not wish to play in such a game because the canon setting it what I absolutely love about the 40K gamelines. Frankly, the reason I drag myself in to these threads is mainly because I absolutely can't abide stupid accusations that the game is inherently sexist. Now as for creating female Marines somehow being the key to making the number of people playing the hobby explode with an influx of demale gamers? No... Not to toot any horns, but my local GW store is one of the best around, and they approach everyone who walks in the door who's a stranger to the game, no matter what shape their genitals are, and from my frequent observances, they've had way more luck with getting boys interested in the hobby than girls, and female Marines aren't likely to change that a whole **** lot. As a bootcamp dropout, I can tell you that women just aren't as generally interested in the military as men, and 40K, when it comes right down to it, is a game about war. Modern western society, for all its egalitarianism and progress, still encourages women to be 'girly', tabletop miniature wargames don't fall under that, they haven't become mainstream and cool like video games have. Personally I like the women who are the exception to the rule myself, but I'm not going to blind myself to the fact that they're generally the exceptions.
  12. Fluff changes over time, while that doesn't keep you from using that old stuff in your own games, it's a weak justification. A lot has changed since the Rogue Trader era, when Imperial Guard used to have Land Raiders and Rhinos, and Space Marines had hoverbikes for whole squads. Changing the Sisters of Battle in to the police of the Space Marines, with or without enhancements, would radically change the background of the game, and the Imperium as a whole. As it is now, represented in the current fluff, various powerful organizations have tried to police the Space Marines, with varying results. For example, there's the example in the new Space Wolves Codex of the Echlisiarchy sending a fleet to Fenris when they heard that the people there were practising pagan religions, backed up by a force from the Sisters, and how it was a spectacular failure and a huge inter-whatever incedent as the Marines drove them off with an unrestrained use of force. And then there's the Inquisitors that have had 'accidents' while investigating the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Throughout the fluff the independence of the Space Marines is shown quite conclusively to be a double-edged sword, with the above examples showing the negative side, while their freedom from the more petty aspects of the Imperium, as well as playing an instrumental part in the downfall of Vandire and his (extra) tyranical reign. Could you imagine a man like Marius Haxx, ruler of the Calixis sector, in command of a Space Marine chapter or several? crisaron said: From a genetical stand point women endure pain much batter then man and would have the highest rate of survival for the Space Marine bio-enhencement IMO. Women actually give birth... we just look and faint... Yeah, there's actually evidence proving that is (half) false. Women have more pain receptors in their skin than men, and generally less of the protien GIRK2, which affects pain threshold and how well painkillers work on a person. A woman's body can require double the amount of painkiller to get the same amount of relief as a man's body would need. Pregnancy is the exception though, because there is a coctail of endorphins and other chemicals that counteract pain flowing through their bloodstream during pregnancy and childbirth. Now, frankly, Sisters don't really need enhancements to be on par with the Space Marines, next to them they are the best equipped and trained force in the Imperium, on an individual level (Tech Guard will have better armour and likely bionics but won't each have their own bolter and suit of power armour, etc.). Plus they have the various faith based powers that Space Marines don't have. As for Sisters running with the OX, remember that Sisters can become part of an Inquisitorial retinue, with all that implies, so having an Inquisitorial Throne Agent who is/was a Sister of Battle running around with the Marines is just fine.
  13. Never read it, I stick with the Horus Heresy and.. well, pretty much anything by Dan Abnett. lol Anyway, even with Demifuge, they can still make that claim. Personally I've always taken it with a bit of salt myself, when reading the fluff. They've been around a long time and Chaos is pretty **** insidious.
  14. Well, as has been previously mentioned, the line is being designed with compatability in mind. So that you can take starting characters from Deathwatch, Rogue Trader, and Ascension Dark Heresy characters, and run them all in the same game with little to no problem. As for a reason why, well you don't necessarily need a female Inquisitor. Remember that many of an Inquisitor's most trusted acolytes can eventually rise to become very independent operators, called Throne Agents in the aformentioned Ascension book. So a Sister of Battle, Arbite, or what-have-you could be one of those people, seconded to the Deathwatch team for whatever inscrutable purpose that the Inquisitor has. Or leading said team, of course. The Battle Sisters also have the claim to fame of never having fallen to the lure of Chaos in their existence, something Space Marines can't, with the exception of a few specific Chapters, notably the Grey Knights. Though, as a side note, Space Marine selection is a lot more rigorous than it was before the Horus Heresy.
  15. "Some people" need to make up bull where it doesn't exist, so they have something to pitch a fit about. I saw it quite often while working in the service industry, there were people who needed to complain about even the tiniest, most insignificant problems, working themselves up, and making the most minor of inconveniences in to a big deal, so they could go off ranting and screaming about them. I started calling those people "Drama Queens" when in the company of my coworkers. So, the most elite military force in the entire galaxy being restricted just to males, with some really good fluff backing up the reasons for that, which was written at a time when there weren't many women in any military, let alone allowed in to combat roles, really doesn't strike me as chauvanist. Perhaps they could have retconned things so that there could be female Space Marines, but they could also retcon things so that there's 'Brothers of Battle' alongside the Sisters, which would make just as much sense. How about we write out the tendency for Orks to have cockney accents while we're at it? And for the record, I'm fine with people making up a reason for there to be female Space Marines, in fact there is a very old (but obscure) fan theory that one of the two Primarchs of the two 'mystery legions' was a woman, which would mean that her Space Marines would be female too. But throwing around accusations of mysoginy is just plain nonsense.
  16. Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to drag things off topic again. Drag them off topic, down an alley, and start beating them about the head with a bat. I just had to register because of the absolute insanity I've seen in this thread. Chauvanism? Really!? Of all the utter nonsense I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot of accusations thrown in the direction of 40K, some of them even having some merit like the racism ones, that has to take the cake. What the hell are some of you people smoking? And where can I get some? I've played 40K for 11 years, and fell in love with the game so much that I've digested the fluff new and old, and chauvanism is realy the last thing I've ever seen in them. How about I start complaining about how Sisters of Battle can only be female, that's no less misandrist, or retarded, than the accusations about Space Marines being restricted to males is mysoginist? I'll shut up and go away if people could give me some actual concrete evidence besides "they can only be men", that 40K is chauvanist. But frankly, I don't think I'm going to get it, because it's just not there.
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