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Blood Pact

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  1. Is there any indication given just how large the crusade in to the Jericho Reach actually is?
  2. I certainly consider it to be a hell of a lot more canon than a **** novel. And please stop throwing around madeup fake numbers like they're some kind of proof? There's absolutely nothing backing them up and it's getting kind of annoying having to argue against something you and Adam pulled out of your asses. 20,000 ships? 11,000,000,000,000 tonnes of cargo? Where does it say this is how much the crusade needs? Is it per week? Month? Year? Give me a page number and I'll stop criticising them, you owe me that much. As for Hydraphur and Cypra Mundi, being the main disbursment centres doesn't mean that every scrap of suppy needs to go through them. As you cited yoruself earlier, the crusade to conquer the Calixis sector ended up creating a hiveworld just for the purpose of managing the supply needs of the Crusade (Malfi, wasn't it?), so obviously the two main planets mentioned earlier aren't the sole sources of material, and a the logistical chain of the Crusade in to the Jericho Reach will have many other routing areas and depots before the final destination in the Calixis sector, the Warp Gate. This doesn't necessarily invalidate or contradict what's in the Munitorium Manual, just elaborate on it to provide a full picture of how military logistics works in the Imperium. Also, if you're so keen on the Manual, why not re-read the section in it and the Uplifting Primer about the kinds of crimes and the punishments you can suffer in the Imperial military establishment. And logically extrapolate that any civilian shipping concern, whether independent trader or cartel, would find themselves beholden to their regulations if they were drafted in to shipping men and material for the Crusade.
  3. I would suspect Force Weapons work halfway like they do in the Inquisitor's Handbook. A mono weapon that that add's the wielder's Psy Rating to Damage and Pen. As for how the killing blow part works, I'm not sure since DH uses a different system to activate psychic powers than Rogue Trader and (apparently) Deathwatch. Personally, I think DH had the better system, or at least they've entirely failed to factor in the widely varying Threshold ratings for DH powers when talking about how to convert them to RT.
  4. This is the third one I've seen, actually. And there was probably one between the previous thread and the one that prompted me to join the boards.
  5. BaronIveagh said: .... Ok, if it takes 20,000 ships to move the men once, how does it not take 40,000 ships to move the men twice if they have to disembark and then reembark on different ships to maintain the same speed? Otherwise you end up with a bottle neck in your reenforcments (which is bad, even if you're the Imperium). Each time you have to stop and disembark everyone, you add another 20,000 ships to keep the chain of supply moving. Never mind that the ships would also have to move tremendous amounts of other supplies. 20,000 is JUST THE MEN.. At the usual rate of consumption, assuming the average for supplies hasn't changed a lot, the crusade will consume something like 11,000,000,000,000 tones of supplies in weeks, maybe as long as three months if they are not activly engaging the enemy. (Probably vastly more supply tonnage, since Imperial equipment tends to be larger then what's used now. Consider this an extreme lowball) On the leaflets: Leaflet rounds are to incite the enemy to surrender. If only a hand ful of people can read, it's likely the officers, and they're the first ones the Imperium would logically exicute. It's the average trooper that leaflet rounds target, in any propaganda scenario. Again, how does this make sense against an illiterate foe? I'm not entirly sure on the kroot there either, I don't remember there being an explaination given. It seems like an awfully large number of them are in the expanse for them to have just 'shown up' (particularly if there are enough of them to justify them as player characters) Okay, I really didn't think I needed to spell this out, but I guess I will. First of all, you and Adam need to stop making up numbers off the top of your head. 20,000 ships? An interstellar starship in 40K has a crew in the tens of thousands, at least, going by Rogue Trader, so it stands to reason that they can hold a few hundred thousand, maybe even a million or more, tonnes of cargo. But that's not the issue I wanted to address right now, as you and Adam seem to be lacking a basic understanding of how this logistical chain would work. Breaking up the movement of men and materials does not multiply the number of ships needed, because those ships are individually travelling a shorter distance than they would be if they were travelling from the source all the way to the front. That is, a ship does not pick up its cargo at Point A in the Calixis/Scarus/Ixaniad sector, and carry it all the way to Point D in the Jericho Reach, which would be a very long journey. No, instead it makes a much shorter journey between the source of its cargo, Point A, and the supply depot near the Warp Gate, Point B. This is a much shorter journey on its own, a journey that is repeated as often as necessary, and one that should be able to be made several times in the amount of time it would take for that ship to instead travel all the way to Poind D. And from there, men and material are taken from the staging areas at Point B, and moved to Point C, on the other side of the gate, which is again a much shorter trip that can be performed over and over again in the same time that it would take a single ship to make the journey from A to D. I hope I don't need to describe the how the final leg of the operation works, do I? So as you can see, breaking the logistical chain up in to multiple phases does not multipy the number of ships needed, ships will just be divided up according to the distances involved (A trip of 2,000 lightyears will need roughly twice as many ships as a trip of 1,000), as well as risk to shipping and imminent need of that part of the warzone. As for making a bottleneck, well I'm afraid you've failed to consider just how impossible that is to avoid. The Warp Gate is a bottleneck in itself, everything has to go through that, no matter where it's coming from. Both sides of it are going to be some of the most heavily protected locations in the entire Crusade, hence my earlier comments about no Rogue Trader being likely to survive an attempt to force their way through and make it back alive. But fair enough, putting all your eggs on one planet is a bit risky, but it doesn't really change anything to just have multiple depot worlds in the immediate area close to the gate instead of one. It might make security a bit more tricky, but the circumstances of ships tasked with the middle phase, travelling back and forth through the Gate, doesn't really change. And I think it's an absolute farce that you're acting like artwork and novels are canon. Artwork needs to look cool, while novels need to tell a good story. Both of those can quite easily necessitate deviation from canon. Or should I remind you that in the 2nd Gaunt's Ghost novel it has him and a platoon of mere Guardsmen counter-ambushing a dozen or so Khorne Berserkers and winning with almost no, if any, casualties? Using Lasguns. Yeah, the novels are really 100% canon. Or how about Eisenhorn and his lightsabre? Or for another Gaunt's Ghosts reference, when he takes out a Chaos Terminator with a Bolt Pistol? While in Traitor General he describes Chaos Marines as being so terrifying that athey've made whole Guard regiments retreat with just a single squad. The novels can be pretty contradictory and vary in a lot of ways, depending on who the author is, their experience with writing for 40K, and the subject of the particular novel (Inquisition, Imperial Guard, etc.). Should I go through the rest of my novels to pick out inconsistencies? I'm sure I could find more, I only have a few dozen of them, plus several fluff books (The Inquisition, Third Battle for Armageddon, 13th Black Crusade, Sabbats World Crusade, Uplifting Primer, and Munitorium Manual), the Liber Chaotica which has pictures of Space Marines in it. And while we're at it, why don't I just throw in the fluff from the last three editions of the 40K core book, my multiple codices and the old Inquisitor book for the hell of it? I'm sure I can compile a load of contradictions and inconsistencies. And while recent canon might have scaled it back, kroot have been said to be not uncommon throughout the galaxy. My comments above notwithstanding, if you're so intent on taking every picture and scrap of fiction as canon, then I recall a short story from back when the Dark Eldar Codex was being released, where Vect is speaking to a human prisoner, telling him the history of his race, and other things, mentioning in particular how he's disgusted with the way that humans and other races, specifically the kroot, are spreading accross the galaxy in the wake of the Eldar's fall. That aside, it seems that GW is taking the route that the Kroot were not encountered until the Damocles Gulf Crusade, in which case the same situation would apply to them as it would the Tau. Strange race that noone in this part of the galaxy has ever really heard of, learning that they originally came to the local sectors through the Warp Gate wouldn't really change that, because the location of the other side is being kept secret, which is the whole topic of this.. debate. For all anyone in the Calixis sector knows, the gate connects to the Margin Crusade, or some part of space nearby. But again, feel free to just ignore all this well reasoned logic and common sense... it's not like you haven't done it many times already.
  6. Just couldn't let the thread die, could you? It went a whole day without any posts, but someone just had to ressurect it? *grumbles*
  7. See, this is the monstrously frustrating bit, you focus on inane minutia, and just flat out ignore the actual concrete bits of my arguement. For example the two pictures you posted. One of those is obviously from the bridge, which is of course going to have windows. While in the second picture, most of those look a lot more like running lights than windows, so my point stands, windows are going to be restricted to the areas of the ship where the important people are. The important people who are either in on the secret, or being watched. About Commissars, are you trying to say that there's going to be some sort of shortage of them? No wait, you're ignoring the fact that the ones taking men and materials to the Calixis-side depots don't really need any security measures at all, because all they're doing is taking X to depot Y, repeatedly. As I and others have said, the Imperium is not a bumping incompetant, they're not going to be sending one ship the whole **** way, from the origin of the cargo, all the way to the final destination of it. Now as for troop transports, they're not coming back, typically. Once some soldiers are done in one warzone, they're going to be moved to another. Or a ship, once it unloads the Guardsmen it's carrying, will be retasked to transport another group of Guardsmen. Or do you think they're sending a new ship in to the Jericho Reach for every **** paperclip that has to be transported? While I might have overestimated the number of acolytes involved (and not too much, considering some Inquisitors have veritable armies of them), I again remind you that they don't need to watch everyone, just those who are the greatest risk, which are those who atr travelling back and forth through the gate, who would be a relative minory of the people actually involved in the Crusade. Also, I didn't mention White Dwarf or BSG, I'll thankyou very much for putting words in my mouth.
  8. Well Alexis, I find the assumptions they've been making insulting, particularly when they turn a complete blind eye to any blatant flaws in them, and just continue to act as gospel. Part of the problem is that people are basing things off novels. Novels are not 100% canon, I'm sorry but no, they're not. To make something palatable to anyone but the most serious of 40K fanatics they need to take some liberties to produce a better and cooler story. For example, Gaunt has read books by Gideon Ravenor? No ****, both books were written by the same guy, and it shouldn't be taken as a serious testament that literature is too likely to travel half-way accross the galaxy. There's windows on starships, when it's downright ludicrous to have long rows of portholes all over the place. And that if you don't see the Eye of Terror, then obviously that means you're halfway accross the galaxy, as opposed to just on the wrong side of the ship. And ship is a kilometre long or more and all the unimportant people who wouldn't be in on the secret, the same unimportant people who aren't likely to have the free time or liberty to just go and run accross to the other side because they want to take a peak at the Eye of Terror. In fact, wanting to look at the EoT is probably going to get you by someone who'd rather be on the safe side about whether you're tainted by Chaos. And then there's still the fact that it could be 'above' or 'below' the ship, as there is no universal 'up' for the whole galaxy. As for just having your Rogue Trader fly through the warp gate... Really? Are we really being so stupid as to assume that the Imperial Navy doesn't have a small fleet camped out on each side of the gate? Probably a much larger one on the Jericho side, so anyone, even a Rogue Trader and his private fleet (which will have people loyal to the Imperium more than the Trader on it) who tries to just sail through without proper authorization is going to get blown out of the void. And if they're not, well they're going to be declared traitors and heretics for opening fire on the forces of our most holy Emperor. Even the influence gained by tattling to the Sector Governors wouldn't save them from that. The Inquisition and Commissars are watching you. The latter is the less dangerous of the two, because even though they're breathing down your neck they're still right out in the open where you can see them, and official investigations can be sabotaged through a number of interesting means. The Inquisition on the other hand, can be exceptionally subtle, and their jurisdiction is everywhere and everyone, even if the latter part is more theory than fact. But Rogue Traders still aren't exempt, even if they leave Imperial space they're still fair game, which as their own book says is where their real power lies, in being the unquestionable commander of their mission once they're away from the Imperium, while inside it they're as beholden to its rules as everyone else. But I digress, the agents of the Inquisition could be anyone, these people infiltrate malefic cults, the organizations of the Imperium are even easier. The loyal valet who's been serving a Lord Admiral for decades could up and stab him in the neck with a poisoned needle concealed in one of his buttons, because he overheard him discussing the secret with someone who wasn't authorized. Or they could just have a psyker literally rip the information from the mind of some conspirator threatening to reveal it. Now on to the people who are a threat. We've already established that a logistical train is not going to consist of a ship flying directly from the Lathes (or some other Calixis location) all the way to the front lines of the Jericho Reach. Established it, and prompty handwaved away by, surprise surprise, Mr. France and the Baron. The main depot for the crusade is going to be the planet closest to the gate, even if they have to build a hiveworld to do it. Considering the Departmento Munitorium has such worlds scattered all around the Eye of Terror, making a new one (or repurposing an existing world) seems like little trouble and just the thing the Imperium would do anyway. This cuts down the risk immensly, as anyone who isn't going through the Warp Gate won't have the chance (the small chance) to notice the Eye of Terror is gone, or the entirely more real risk of the ship's Navigator realizing the Astronomicon isn't where it should be. Astropaths aren't as much of a problem as you'd expect, because they work better through relay, than direct transmission, over very large distances, as clearly illustrated in the Roge Trader manual. Thanks to this, you simply have any ignorant Astropath (probably most of them) who's trying to send a message back to the Calixis/Scarus/Ixaniad sectors send it to the relay who's on the Jericho Reach side of the Warp Gate, who sends it to the other side (assuming you don't need to send a ship through with a hardcopy), where upon it is sent according to whatever the normal procedures would be. Keeping both of those two groups in line wouldn't be particularly hard, choosing Navigators from families in good standing, paying them better than normal, and informing them (with the unspoken threat) that the secret is of the utmost importance and cannot afford to be revealed. They'd have quite little to practically gain from letting it get out, the only people worth telling would be Sector Governors, and the reprisals would certainly outweigh the benefits. The same goes for the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The biggest risk of leaks would be the officers and crew of those ships who handle the 'middle' part of the logistical chain, those shipping men and materials from the Obscurus-side depots through the Warp Gate to the main distritbution centres in the Jericho Reach, assuming they don't just go all the way to the front lines (where they risk death, so that solves that). These transports, and their naval escorts, would be the real weak link involved. But not a difficult one to contain. The officers, the ones who are likely to actually be in on the secret being kept, as well as be in positions to snoop around or have the requisite knowledge to put 2 and 2 together if they're not, would still have Commissars looking over their shoulders, men and women who are known for being quite fanatically loyal and good at keeping secrets (part of their duties are to keep an eye out for chaos or other unwanted influences). the Imperium, despite the assumptions made previous in this thread seem to think, is not stupid, the weakest link will have the most eyes watching it, so it would be reasonable to expect the Inquisition would watch this aspect of the fleet the most closely, ready to remove any officer, Astropath, or Navigator who gets the stupid idea in their head to blab. While the rank and file crew would be even easier to handle, simply by keeping them from mingling with other naval personel who aren't involved in the Jericho-side of the gate, which isn't to hard. Make sure any shore leave (which I would imagine is not that common) happens there instead of on the Calixis-side of the gate. Any little rumours passed along while making cargo transfers could be largely ignored, strange stories and other such accounts brushed off as tall tales and supersticion from void farers. While I simply don't see too many business interests going on in the middle of a warzone The Imperium keeps a lid on chaos remember. Oh sure, there's a Great/Arch/etc. Enemy out there, and the average citizen will know that they hate the Imperium and all it stands for, wishing for nothing more than to bring death and destruction to all the domains of the Imperium of Man, but they don't know the big picture now do they? They don't know that just beyond the veil are horrible, incomprehensible monsters that thirst for their very souls and would love nothing more than to swallow up the whole Galaxy in a never-ending orgy of pain and suffering. I think a little secret about where the other side of that Warp Gate is, is a much smaller problem. As for existence of the Tyranids, or the Tau, well we're not going to get anywhere on that, are we? I shout that they wouldn't know, you shout their do, it's just going to be one big impass, even though the evidence supports my side a bit more than yours, as I've already covered that novels take quite a bit of artistic liscense to tell a good story. Not to mention basing things on the assumption that a great many people have extensive information on xenos threats that exist half a galaxy away. So tell me again how all this means nothing? And I switched to personal attacks because you've flippantly been ignoring every bit of reasoned arguement I've laid out, because it doesn't conform to the narrative that you prefer.
  9. Sounds pretty handwavey to me, but the Baron and Mr. France have been pulling **** out of their asses the whole time anyway, so nothing surprising.
  10. Luckily the upcoming lineup includes a book that will help with making custom Chapters (and might even have a few more pre-made ones).
  11. Kage2020 said: A lot of BaronInveagh's post seems reasonable extrapolations based upon the structure of the Imperium, or at least what little we're given to understand in any degree of detail, and the concept of "The Big Secret." It might not be what everyone would do, but I'm not entirely sure that it really necessitates the angst that I've seen coming through on some of the posts. (Of course, being passionate about something is fine and dandy...) A lot more of his posts are based on assumptions like the nobility of the Calixis sector knowing who the Tau are, or that the Imperium is completely incompetant at keeping secrets, and that every tom, ****, and harry involved in the crusade knows way more than any Imperial peasant has any right to.
  12. Sadly, people have made that arguement before, and the complainers ignore it and keep on going.
  13. In other words, you completely made up reason for them to find it by some ST fiat of your own.
  14. There's a very significant difference between a Necron pretending to be an Inquisitor, and one that actually is an inquisitor. As others have already clarified, an Eldar may become an acolyte, but they'll never get their rossette and become a full fledged member of the Inquisition.
  15. Peacekeeper_b said: I dont think it is that simple. Joe Deckhand may look out in space and think "hmmm cant see that big red light in this part of space. Neat." But he isnt going to say "Hey this area of space I have never been to looks nothing like another area of space Ive never been through!" Or for an even simpler explanation! "Huh, it must be on the other side of the ship." Or above or below it too, since there's no universal 'up' in the galaxy that every stellar body and ship conforms to. You could be a mere 1,000 lightyears from the Eye of Terror, for the sake of arguement, and not be able to see it out any window because it's effectively 'below' you from the perspective of everyone on board.
  16. Yeah, Adam... You're the one who's handwaving things now.
  17. Getting to choose what you play is nice. But complaints about not being able to play female Space Marines are no more sensible than complaints about being unable to play a Tau Striking Scorpion, or an Eldar Inquisitor.
  18. It's not a handwave excuse, and you've offered far from credible or convincing arguement that the secret is insecure. So why don't you just shut up and wait to get your hands on the book already, though I have a good feeling you'll not want to call attention to this nonsense after the Deathwatch core makes it in to wider circulation, from the desire not to end up looking really stupid.
  19. Quicksilver said: Kanluwen said: The people who want female Space Marines resort to name calling and calling the fluff bullcrap, etc then hollering about unfair treatment when people respond in kind to their crummy ideas. To be fair, the people who hate the idea of female space marines start the name calling other trolling techneques just as often as the pro-female marine groups posters. The few who actualy want to discuss how it might come about just get buried under the noise from the two fanatical sides. It's hard to believe you when what actually prompted me to join these forums was Ariolan throwing out the accusation that 40K was a chauvanistic game, a claim that was echoed by more than a few others. This was the thread "I may have solved the female problem." to be exact. You may also remember that I called that out as the absolute pile of bull that it was.
  20. The mental image of a Space Marine gnawing through the bars of his jail cell has always amused me.
  21. The Space Marines aren't likely to talk, while the Inquisition are in large part some of the ones who are working to keep the secret. I can't see to many traders, whether Free or Rogue, travelling in to active warzones either, at least not in anything more than relatively small numbers, same goes with large business cartels. And the artistocracy are not going to be travelling there except as part of the crusade forces, or with colonization efforts, in either case they're not going to be coming back. While high ranking members of the military will probably know that their resources and manpower will dry up if the secret gets out, and that there will be hell to pay from both the Commissriat and Inquisition. Remember that the rich and powerful aren't above being murdered in the middle of the night for getting too uppity with thoughts of independence, or other shenanigans. Perhaps the secret does spread a bit too far, and some merchant cartel or noble house gets it in their head to blow the whistle... and then most or all of them are gruesomely anihilated by an assassin of the Eversor temple.
  22. Rank 9 DH characters and Rank 4-5 RT characters are of lesser prowess? What are you smoking, and where can I buy some? I'm sorry, but if the arguement keeps coming down to "SPESH MARENS r da besht!" and that playing anything else sticks you with a 2nd class character (thus relegating female characters to always be 2nd class)... well, you're just not going to get me to accept what you're saying as being the least bit credible.
  23. They can only fill the book with so many NPC's, the core book of an RPG has a lot to cover afterall. And the Deathwatch's main enemy is aliens, yes. But it's not their only enemy, they're Space Marines and loyal to the Emperor, they're not going to ignore Chaos or other renegades just because they're not aliens.
  24. BaronIveagh said: Actually it'd be all of them (as well as any civilian ship crews), for a simple reason: if all you have to do to find out you're being lied to is look out a window... The arguements being made in this thread, like the one above, are so insultingly stupid it's painful. How many windows do you think Imperial ships have? This isn't Star Trek where they seem to have one every 5 feet, this is a dystopian universe, where their FTL travel happens to be flying through hell! Do you want windows that any worthless rating or deck hand can look out in to that? Not to mention that windows of any kind would be pretty big structural flaws in a starship, like putting a screen door on a submarine, so they'd be very few and far between. And if the others haven't made a convincing enough argument about why people in the Calixis (and surrounding) sectors haven't heard of the Tau, then nothing will dissuade you from that mad line of thought.
  25. That's what Bolter rounds are filled with (and it's a solid!). It's an oooooold piece of fluff too, and they haven't changed it. The concensus of the player base is that they chose it because it just sounded cool.
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