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Rakiel

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  1. Eh? If it says that "All zones must be warded"; all zones must be warded. Just because you only have a Breastplate on does not mean those other zones cease to exist. If you ward the breastplate (your chest), your legs/arms/head are still unwarded so therefore you are .. unwarded. As for the Hellrifle it is a Unique rifle - which means it is even rarer than a Exitus rifle - doubly so because we are referring to a Best Quality Exitus rifle by default (it is in the nature of them), well the Hellrifle is listed as a Normal quality. Granted, there is nothing "more Unique than Unique" but I just point that out to drive home how bloody rare and excessively difficult acquiring such a thing should be. It doesn't have a price listed for a reason after all, and you are running around with an item that is viewed to be Radical (all puritans after you), the Adeptus Mechanicus has never been able to examine (not that they would openly make a move, but its sure as hell you will catch their eye), is one of the "few" weapons that can hurt daemons (Radicals after you), and is obviously and visibly impossibly valuable (in short, everyone after you. Forever). It is not the kind of weapon you want to be flaunting around.
  2. But apart from the metallican gunslinger alternate rank you're not going to have all the required talents to do gun fu properly until late game. And yeah, Moritat can be decent melee characters, in fact they can be godlike in melee. But other characters can do equally well in meleee once you've gone up in rank some, and do it with a powersword or something more awesome than the primitive weapons. Gun fu is great, but I just mean burst in general. Full auto in melee, whether or not you have two weapons. If you have two weapons, great - I am sadly not at home so I cannot see how early classes can pick up Two Weapon Wielding; but I do know many classes start with Ambidextrous. Being just short Gunslinger leaves you at a only -10 penalty, which really isn't that bad - its the standard two weapon wielding melee penalty. Sure they can pickup Gunslinger advance and do some crazy stunts, but they don't need to have it to just do a full auto burst in melee.. Which with some of the lower end high RoF pistols can be quite painful. Moritat can do it with a power sword as well, I've never seen anyone ever say they *cant* make use of them and to say so would be a massive limiter on them. The only thing I would put up in the air is whether or not they would be allowed to make use of Tearing with power weapons - I would say no, but I have seen several games where they were allowed. I agree they are not the stand alone "Oh my god the best / ultimate, they are forever the best!" any more than the Gunslingers are. Go up in rank enough and Assassins and Scum will be likely to pick up the talents they are getting from Gunslinger already, and without the penalty for using basic weapons. However we've already established melee weapons can do some terrible things in the late game, so I am still speaking more of the low ranks/low power games, where Moritat and Gunslinger give their characters a quick and early edge over the others in their respective fields. The 2d10+5 stats are from my digital copy of inquisitors handbook. Sneaky errata perhaps. No matter, there are plenty of other melee weapons that hold their own. Even the standard power blade will, coupled with sufficient strenght, make a mockery of any sort of full auto pistol shenanigans. The adding of SB to damage does something very important, it goes towards removing TB soak, which coupled with good armour is going to make many shots of the high RoF pistols bounce. Weird. I double checked my own copy the other day and it did say 2d5+5; double checked errata as well and there was no mention of it. Though I did notice something interesting - the Mark (IV?) Command Pistol has Accurate and a range of something around 70m. I would have to double check errata on that, but bloody hell there's a long distance pistol finally. So that's definitely something a range challenged character could look at. I lack books currently as stated twice already, but I remember them being relatively cheap.. And they are Las weapons so you have the rechargeable aspect as well to work for you. Anyways - once again, referring to lower level games where people are not going to be running around with power blades/swords and amazing armor. If your going to have a huge bounce problem due to TB/Armor people can use a different more high powered pistol, or dual shot, or whatever. Or they can use a better weapon, or anything else required. Yes, melee weapons cost more, but they don't require ammo. The bolter has a 16 thrones per shot price tag attached to it. Pretty big deal. And even the hecuter with it's comparably low cost of ~1 throne per bullet would cost 12 thrones per combat round to use. It soon adds up. When we are speaking of the Hecutor I am definitely pulling a "wait, what?" moment here. Hecutors are just heavy auto pistols. They use standard bullets, unless you are speaking of manstoppers for EVERY shot. Its 1 throne per 20 bullets - at 15 thrones cheaper for a common quality one that means your getting 300 bullets for two Hecutors. If you go poor quality and remove the Reliable trait, its only 88 thrones each. So you save 102 thrones per Hecutor versus the BQ Mono sword - or 2040 shots. Sure you get no real PEN unless you use Manstoppers but you can always get a Carnodon, which is Pen 2 and *still* uses normal bullets. Using the two PQ carnodons vs two BQ mono swords you can get 184 thrones worth of bullets.. Or 3680 shots. That's a pretty nice deal for a PEN 2 weapon. And that is just the difference between buying the mono-swords and the pistols, ignoring what extra thrones you would have. Yeah, any class can do that. With severe penalties to hit which are going to make you hit less of those shots. Unless you've got the right talents, which require one to move up in rank, elite advances or the metallican gunslinger. At which point the melee characters will have access to some of their nice stuff. And no, it doesn't make pistols "****" in melee, there are more viable options anyway (and if you are absolutely hell bent on multiple hits, hack shotguns to the rescue). But I think it's a poor call to ban autofire in melee, it's not like it actually does anything but force the gunslingers to buy one or two "melee guns" that do more damage per hit or have scatter. Not if they just use a single high RoF pistol. Having two pistols can double your damage, but its not required for it to be effective. Let me tell you a small anecdote from my last session as GM. I sprung an ambush by Ork Kommandos on the acolytes. Our resident gun bunny opened up with dual shot and did horrible, horrible damage to the poor ork. The next time he fired with the same pistols he unloaded autofire, did two points of damage with probably eight or nine hits. The redemptionist with eviscerator killed one ork per round before he fired up his jetpack in the forest, rolled a 90+ on his pilot jump pack and almost died crashing into a tree. We all laughed heartily, as is customary in such situations. I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but I'm going to reiterate my main point once again. Number of hits are not as important as damage per hit. Okay? That's a great anecdote if we are assuming acolytes are running around fully armed/armored at all times, and are constantly against high TB/armor targets. Your games might be so, my games are not. When we start bringing in GM created situations its exceptionally hard to use them as a de facto argument because I could just as easily say I've played/run games where the acolytes go against a cult den or a bunch of gangers.. Who, you know, are relatively normal people trying to plug you with holes. They don't have a massive TB and they aren't wearing huge amounts of armor. Autofire isn't amazing versus a high soak target, this is well known - that's why there are things like Dual-Shot to effectively bypass TB. However, that does not mean that every target is a huge soak target - or that every part of its body is armored. If your just doing chipping damage, yes, probably not going to be amazing. If you can actually hit them solidly, autofiring is going to work a lot better than just shooting a single shell or two. I am fine to agree to disagree at this point - I concede that at high levels its not nearly as big of an issue because melee abilities and weapons have amazing scaling. I would contend against the "gunslingers become ****" at high ranks argument, but I am talking by my experiences and games.. And the DH games I am in tend to be low power, with the high power games reserved for RT or RT/DH cross overs. Semi/full auto in melee can be really bloody powerful, and I dislike how easily it can edge melee weapons at that point. Its not an opinion unique to me, and your opinion obviously isn't unique to you.
  3. borithan said: Personally I don't like this rule. I always felt that it is better being forced to make the choice between moving and taking that devestating attack. You make movement appealing by making it obvious that not doing so is going to be deadly and by breaking lines of sight. Eh, it depends really. If the player is near cover already they can just dive into cover as a Dodge-10 and take full advantage of the full auto, depending on the dice gods. I like it because its an extra little way of getting around the battle field, and by memory you don't get the bonuses of firing in those modes.. Which help limit the hits ;P
  4. Friend of the Dork said: Elesthor said: Friend of the Dork said: DarkWatcher said: No. I am still talking about Dual Shot. We're taking it as two shots hitting the same area and working them out separately. This comes from having to work out the result of dual shots with difference pistol types, such as when I use Stub-Auto and Plasma pistol combo as the AP is so drastically different. I know the book's wording on Crack Shot damage dealing 2 extra damage, but the GM has amended the interpretation to something that still fits (kind of) in the interest of balance. Goons may not track critical damage, but power-armoured sorceror bosses do. In a three v three gunfight crackshot and dual shot combination has the possibility of being a decider. I once opened a combat with a dual head-shot that racked up to the last non-fatal critical damage. The opponent survived, dual-shot me back and took 15 of my 16 wounds off me. I forgot about the effect of crack shot and would have actually killed her outright. The GM was quite happy about this afterwards as he said that obliterating the gunslinger of the opposition before she got to shoot back would have made the fight rather dull. Well, that's the GM's prerogative. Although it's not really hard: A bolt pistol and laspistol shooting a dual shot against someone in guard flak works like this: roll damage for bolt pistol: d10+5(tearing) for a result of 12. The penetration make the armor worthless, so damae is 12 plus: d10+2 for a result of 7, armor reduces it to 3. Total damage is thus 15 minus TB of say 3, for 12 damage total. Now if you instead work it out like 2 seperate shots as you said, then it would be alot less effective, and IMO make the talent useless. two weapon-wielder combines with semi or full auto would be so far superior that Dual Shot becomes useless. Hate to necro threads but I dont want to start a new one for it. Crack shop applied only once at the end of the calculations seems reasonable to me. But what about Mighty Shot? Is this talent aplied twice for a +4 dmg? YES you get it on both damage rolls. Unless the errata said something I forgot, might wanna check it. Errata doesn't say anything on it; its +2 damage each shot.
  5. Trodamus said: To touch on an earlier point, it's been mentioned and discussed in several DH books that a large part of the Ministorum's job is to catalog and evaluate all of the different "cults of the Emperor" as to whether they fall sufficiently in-line with what's acceptable, if the world needs re-educating or simply to be put to the pyre. Also worth mentioning that, like all things in the bureaucratic nightmare that is the 41M, some "cults" deemed acceptable by one part of the Ministorum will naturally be deemed heretical by another facet. To say nothing of how cults feel about each other and who has the truest beliefs... For reference to others, I think this was touched on in DoTDG the early cult section - like how moritat are a bit too death-cult/sanguine cult for normal flavors but somehow get by.
  6. Rakiel said: Arcaia said: Rakiel said: Arcaia said: I'd hate to point out that the Angelus Bolter only has S/-/-. I checked the errata for a possible error, but I can't find one. It also doesn't seem to have Tearing, only Accurate, but I suppose that the entry in the errata for Bolt weapons also applies to it? Of course, I'm just nitpicking Its meant to be a sniper rifle type bolt weapon, and it fits that role perfectly via having S/-/-. Look at the fluff attached to it. Tearing can be applied to it if you want, not by RAW naturally, but its pretty universal for all bolt weapons to have tearing so it would make sense. Actually, I had read the fluff before hand, and it isn't explicit about it being a sniper rifle, the best you get is mention of the best bounty hunters and beast-slayers, but I had missed the 100m base range. Personally I think it's good enough as it is, with Accurate potentially giving it extra dice for damage. Herp derp. Posting from a laptop and hit publish meaning to scroll down which is just daft. Sure which I could edit or remove my own post :< Le sigh. Anyways, yeah, its a glorious weapon. Accurate makes it princely.
  7. Arcaia said: Rakiel said: Arcaia said: I'd hate to point out that the Angelus Bolter only has S/-/-. I checked the errata for a possible error, but I can't find one. It also doesn't seem to have Tearing, only Accurate, but I suppose that the entry in the errata for Bolt weapons also applies to it? Of course, I'm just nitpicking Its meant to be a sniper rifle type bolt weapon, and it fits that role perfectly via having S/-/-. Look at the fluff attached to it. Tearing can be applied to it if you want, not by RAW naturally, but its pretty universal for all bolt weapons to have tearing so it would make sense. Actually, I had read the fluff before hand, and it isn't explicit about it being a sniper rifle, the best you get is mention of the best bounty hunters and beast-slayers, but I had missed the 100m base range. Personally I think it's good enough as it is, with Accurate potentially giving it extra dice for damage.
  8. Hahaha, I actually agree with you over the dev thing... Its why I tend to point out that not everyone is taking the forum rulings as universal, and to bear them in mind as a tangent when we speak of RAW. Read the first page - the intention it seems is that you may NOT do SA/FA in melee range, using two pistols is fine and lets you make the two attacks, and you can still dual shot. But yeah, its slightly wonky and would be great if they put up another errata shortly. But I would encourage you to actually re-read (or read) the first post of the thread as it specifically refers to the post; they fire single shots only, may only make standard attacks, or as part of two-weapon fighting, but the ability to do SA/FA is explicitly denied. All they have to do really is put in a rule that "SA/FA may not be used in the frantic chaos of a melee" and it fits with the rules well enough, since everything else is just attempting to take one shot from a pistol each over the 5 seconds, as opposed to holding down the trigger and hoping you don't hit someone else. All the pistol talents that I believe you are referring to come out of dual-wielding, which would be things like dual shot - though arguable as well that it wouldn't apply as its tangently part of two weapon wielding. Anyways, I wouldn't allow pistol grips to change the class of a weapon - if your treating it like that it means that classes can automatically use weapons they could not otherwise via just slapping a pistol grip on it. Can't use basic (sp) but can use pistol (sp)? Slap a pistol grip on your rifle and suddenly it qualifies as a pistol! Or if you did that you end up going around things like Accurate quality - if I dual wield two accurate basic weapons, if I made a full turn aim action and than fired them as a dual-shot would it qualify for basic accurate stacking? Or would it qualify as pistols? Or could....etc.etc.etc. Saying that just because its referred to as a "pistol grip" lets you treat it "like a pistol" opens up a lot of weirdness that starts to mess with the rules, and makes one wonder why someone would ever use, say, auto-pistols when they could just pistol grip two autoguns for better stats all around. I've never actually known a GM to ever allow you to treat Basic weapons as pistols if you had pistol grips. So, uh, I guess all my GM's and myself qualify as really restrictive. As for the WS vs AGI argument: If you can raise it easily than raise WS and get a defensive weapon if you want, sure. But its got its own limitations - if you have amazing WS for parrying and horrible dodge, well that doesn't really help you against ranged (non-primitive) weapons, blast weapons, burst weapons or what not. Dodge is usable against any attack, I cannot think of anything where you cannot apply it, while Parry is more situational. I just did a quick look and there isn't a whole lot of classes that are 500 agi and 500 ws (actually, I dont think any), and a 250 scheme really isn't all that bad - especially since all worlds start with a base 2d10+20 Agility, and that is never modified. But to each their own I guess.
  9. ItsUncertainWho said: talsine said: To be the token Skeptic, a single, well played D&D Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric/Caster could probably kill a DH party. The power levels are not similar at all. Guns only level the playing field so much before magical walls of invisible force start poping up. Still, might be fun to watch all the non casters go down in flames. Except if there is a Null in the group. Then all the casters are done fore, and all the magic armor and weapons are useless against him. Assuming that D&D would use the same mechanics behind their magic, which there is no reason to think so. I am all in favor of 40k winning as I've never played D&D and have little interest in it; but .. I have heard they tend to get some pretty crazy abilities.
  10. Arcaia said: I'd hate to point out that the Angelus Bolter only has S/-/-. I checked the errata for a possible error, but I can't find one. It also doesn't seem to have Tearing, only Accurate, but I suppose that the entry in the errata for Bolt weapons also applies to it? Of course, I'm just nitpicking Its meant to be a sniper rifle type bolt weapon, and it fits that role perfectly via having S/-/-. Look at the fluff attached to it. Tearing can be applied to it if you want, not by RAW naturally, but its pretty universal for all bolt weapons to have tearing so it would make sense.
  11. Face Eater said: Peacekeeper_b said: Ogryn Power Armour or Ogryn Power Fists would have to be custome made, so very unlikely they would have one. Clearly you don't subscibe to the idea that Space Marines are as big as Ogryns :s But yes, I did pick the most ridiculous gear specifically for that example but I do see the ability to use to much higher tech weaponry as the advantage that humans have over Ogryns in combat situations. SM power armor is custom made and cannot be used by anyone that isn't a SM, since it requires things like black carapace. So it would still have to be custom made, even if they are as big as Space Marines. The Space Marines sure as hell wouldn't give them power armor even if they could just throw it on.
  12. Madner Kami said: Rakiel said: The standard inferno pistol at the horrible 10m range can still shoot up to 40m, which can be talented to not take a penalty, [...] No, this is not possible. Mind if I quote the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook on the topic of flame weapons, page 128: Flame [...] Unlike other weapons, flamers have just one range and when fired, cast fiery death out to this distance [...] There's no long range, extreme range, short range or point blank for any flame weapon. It just fires out to it's noted max range and that's it. No range-based modificators or anything, except for having the according flame weapon talent or not. (Though one might argue, if the range modifiers are applied to the according agility-role, but I doubt one can justify that by RAW either.) In regard about using pistols in SA/FA-modus in melee, I can't find a single RAW-rule, that denies these fire-modes in melee at all and pistols already loose the range modifier they could have when beeing in point-blank or short range, which is a huge hit to hit-chance! That may change for pumped up and munchkinned higher class characters, as I haven't played one yet, but I think this keeps up for a long long time. Pistols are, for all intends and purposes, a mix between melee and ranged weapons. They get a ranged attack, they can be used in melee. In return for this advantage, you get a few disavantages, namely not having such a wide variety of moves, maneuvers and talents, compared to a melee-armed and trained character and on top of that you can not parry melee attacks with pistols, as you can not fix a melee attachment onto them, unlike with basic weapons. One shouldn't overlook these litte details about them, since they are actually intended to be used in melee and especially this last little detail can lead to some rather deadly results. Yes, giving them the full bonus for SA/FA in melee might seem rather odd, but that is, in my opinion, more a problem of general mechanics regarding especially the FA modes of ranged weapons (SA seems mostly fine for me so far) and not so much a problem of pistols using SA/FA in melee. Errata states they can make a single attack, it doesn't define what constitutes a single attack - this post states that it was RAI to be a single standard attack/shot, not meant to be anything else. It depends on interpretation of the RAW on whether or not you are allowed to do it, but the entire thread stems off a post asking dev's about it, and them specifically saying you may only fire in a single shot. Keep in mind with Quick Draw you only need to carry a knife on you and you can automatically quick draw and parry with it when required. Pistols also have a variety of talents that Basic weapons do not get, and the ability to target more than one enemy. There are advantages to them besides "your a weapon user in melee!". Also: ..Not very high Dodge skill? Lunacy! Its one of the most effective ways to avoid damage. If your running around into melee with a pistol or intend to be a short range combatant I can't see why you wouldn't have Dodge. Sure, you cannot boost it via a Defensive weapon for that lovely +15, but you can boost it via increasing the skill to +20.
  13. If you want to use it go ahead but I agree with gregorious on this - you'd probably end up having an actual dispatch of space marines on your hands since they wouldn't take something like that lightly. Or at the very least, a very large Inquisition response. Which would be kind of amusing if it does take place on Necromunda, since you mentioned Goliath gangers.
  14. Storm6436 said: I'm looking into possibly adding a 3rd branch to the Tech-priest tree that is slightly more 'shooty' than the original two under the guise of a Tech Guard / Skitarii officer or liason. Seeing as the AdMech cogboys are usually pretty light on the fluff side of things, anyone have any knowledge or opinions that would nix or support this idea? I've got a few players that are pretty into the W40k world and I'm trying to not break immersion too badly, if at all. Primarily looking for input to make this more interesting/doable... suggestions for skills/talents/implants, etc would be welcome as well. Have you checked the Secutor alt rank? Page 68 of IHB. Its probably exactly what you are after since it turns them into walking weapons platforms.
  15. Salindurthas said: a): Allowing ranged attacks in melee to be parried. In fact it's the gun that's pushed out of the way before it's fired. This is even more fun if the defender has a power field weapon This is already allowed, I thought. I almost certainly remember reading this in the core rulebook. Only Primitive ranged weapons can be parried via talent.
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