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    , Niedersachsen, Germany
  1. JuankiMan said: I don't feel the need to fight flies, but I'll still squash whichever gets too close. Yeah, but humans usually react poorly to finding out that their fellows have been squashed by others, and they usually can do a bit more than standing on your lunch with the same feet they touched horse crap with. JuankiMan said: Sure, if you mostly disregard the rest I said, you're welcome. Always eager to help.Incidentally, Eldar also practice Exterminatus, do they never do it on their own planets because they haven't got any and because in the case of Exodites it would be self-annihilation. Exactly, only the humans are willing to kill that many of their own. JuankiMan said: Sure, but Gabriel Angelos explained it himself. Cyrene was suffering from a massive case of Chaos taint to the point that it was too far gone. There may have been still innocent uncorrupted civilians, but if Angelos, quite a decent man and a wise commander, was pushed to actually plead to the Inquisition himself to destroy his home planet, an act that would forever haunt him to the end of his days, I'm willing to believe that the ruling class was gone, that the PDF was secretly traitor and that most of the population was subtly but surely on the brink of madness. In his eyes, had he not acted Cyrene would have exploded into outright rebellion and Chaos would have gained a foothold to put the whole sector, and by extension the Chapter's very future at risk. Joke's on him, because that's what it happened anyway, but then again the Aurelian sector is one of the most unfortunate sectors in the Imperiu "Decent man and wise commander"? We are talking about the guy who freed a demon and got himself smashed to a bloody pulp by a titan-sized demon prince so that he's now nearly indistinguishable from a veteran of the Iron Hands? I find it more than fishy that the chapter got its recruits from Cyrene for generations and then he comes over and realizes that the planet is completely and utterly lost to Chaos what no one else could see before. It's also interesting that the Inquisition believed him to be a traitor afterwards. JuankiMan said: And you may not see it that way and unfortunately many Inquisitors and adepta don't either, but the planets the Imperium cares about tend to be inhabited by millions, often billions of people, so wanting to save the planets implies wanting to save their lives as well. If by destroying a planet you can save a dozen from such a grim fate, then so be it. The Imperium is a lot of things, but it isn't queasy. Yeah. The problem is that if every time you wreck one planet to save a dozen you're down one planet and all the lives on it. Since there are corruptible humans everywhere and the Chaos gods have an eternity for their plans they can play until you're out of planets. JuankiMan said: No, I'm citing the Eccleasiarchy as an example of how much humans care about their souls. After all, a central tenet of Imperial dogma is that it is better to die pure than to live tainted, and Priests have absolutely no qualm of enforcing such a tenet when the sinner won't enforce it himself lest they spread it to others. And sure, the Ecclesiarchy is ridden with corruption as it always is the case in large human institutions and many priests sin of overzeal, but then again, Chaos is a mighty foe indeed. The taint of the Warp and its siren songs are like a form of very difficult to detect radiation that mind ***** people and then teaches them to make dirty bombs. Yeah, unfortunately "tainted" is everybody who doesn't accept the Emperor as his one and only savior and doesn't have the military power to rip the Sororitas and Imperial Guard a new one. In fact there are Chaos cults that mask as followers of the Imperial creed. So yeah, the ecclesiarchy is a bad place for saving souls they are more into building monuments and killing people. Blood Pact said: Firstly, the fate of your soul, in 40K, counts for nothing. Whether it dissipates, gets absorbed by something else (benignly) or snacked on by a daemon, whatever happens to it doesn't really reflect upon whether you've been a good and virtuous person, or the scum of the galaxy. Yeah, so? What does that have to do with "caring" what happens to them? Blood Pact said: Next, who gives a crap about planets. So humanity, by base necessesity needs to stripmine planets for their resources, and generally lay them to waste. So what? For one thing, Eldar don't need to mine anymore because they conjure all their building materials from the Warp (wraithbone remember), or make them out of trees in the case of Exodites. It's easy to keep your planets pristine and beautiful, when you hardly need them for anything but a warm but shaded place to stand. I very much doubt it's necessity. Blood Pact said: Lastly. I very much doubt the ancient Eldar left humanity alone, during the 40,000 years or so of human history that took place before the Emperor's Great Crusade. It's just not written down anywhere, but it never explicitely says that the Eldar and humanity had no contact with one another. That the Eldar were content to let silly little primitive humanity do their thing in their little corner of the galaxy, while the Eldar ruled everything else. If we look at how the Eldar act now, and remember that the entire race was leaning toward being like the Dark Eldar (probably more like Corsairs, the Dark Eldar were apparently the descendents of the most depraved survivors, who liked living in the lawless 'international waters' of the Webway. So yeah, during those millenia, there were probably cullings, and bloody evictictions from Maiden Worlds (in the usual vein of ordering the evacuation of millions, or billions, in the space of a few days), and whole planets that were just plain made sport of just for bored Eldar. During the 40,000 years before the Great Crusade? You mean the one that started around 30k? I dare say that we can be sure that they left humanity alone for the first 12k of that time. And I wouldn't say that the ancient Eldar were completely like Dark Eldar or Corsairs. Otherwise there wouldn't have been enough smart enough to leave before the Slaanesh hit the fan. And humanity still exists after coexisting in space with an Eldar Empire that could make or break stars with a thought. Also at that time the Eldar could always make new maiden worlds. They didn't really have to care about humans settling on them. My personal guess would be that the Eldar mostly ignored humanity during the DAoT or amused themselves by watching them like humans watch birds. If the Eldar really would have wanted to harm humanity there wouldn't be any stories of "metal men".
  2. JuankiMan said: During the DAoT the Eldar viewed humanity probably the same as humanity viewed the Tau when they first encountered them, though the very term Mon-Keigh implies that they did ponder wether to exterminate them. Also this are pre-Fall Eldar we're talking about. I don't think they left anyone alone. And during the Age of Strife they mostly left humanity alone (which you are assuming, as there is very, very little info about that period of history) because they had more pressing problems at hand, say, the near-omnipotent Eldritch monstrosity they themselves had unwittingly created gorging itself on their souls and their empire. During the Dark Age of Technology humanity was far more advanced than in the Age of the Imperium (okay, the Eldar were at the height of their power too, but it seems they didn't deem it necessary at that time to fight them. JuankiMan said: And you seem to think that an Exterminatus works like an Inquisitor sitting at the top of his battleship looking despondedly at a random planet and then pointing with his finger and saying "This planet displeases me. Remove it". Exterminatus is a measure of pure and utter desperation, the most extreme form of "scorched earth" tactics imaginable. After all, you can always make more humans, but you can never make more planets. Thanks for completely proving my point. This is why I hate 40k humanity. Concerning planets: There are still plenty to (re)discover JuankiMan said: You don't Exterminate a planet to get rid of a "hidden cult". Don't be absurd. You Exterminate a planet to get rid of the very vocal cult that has toppled the local government, slaughtered the PDF, drawn the planet's population to madness and dispair and has fended off both the Guard and the Astartes, and is now threatening to use the world as a staging point for future campaigns of terror and destruction, or is attempting to pull the whole planet into the Warp, or pull the Warp into the planet or something equally apocalyptic which will most likely spell doom to every single world around it. And be assured that every single rival the Inquisitor giving the order has will examine the decision with extreme interest in case they can prove the measure was unnecesary, so an Inquisitor better be **** sure that nuking them from orbit is the only way to be sure. Well, what you describe would be incredibly obvious. You are welcome to explain to me why Cyrene was destroyed. JuankiMan said: And of course humanity is at their very worst. That is kind of the whole point of the setting. And I disagree that the Eldar put more value to their souls that humans do. That's the whole schtick with the Ecclesiarchy, at least with the Ecclesiarchs who act out of faith and not out of greed, which are a lot more numerous than you'd think. They do place a lot more value on their lives though, mainly because for them, Eldar lives are a precariously limited and dwindling resource, while for the Imperium human life is its lifeblood. Oh come on, you are citing the ecclesiarchy as an example of how much humans care about each other? "Burn!"
  3. JuankiMan said: Normally I'd agree with you, but these are not humans we're talking about. Eldar are inherently prone to moral and emotional excess. They feel, obsess and live with an intensity that defies human definition and so Craftworld Eldar devised the Paths as a form of strict self-discipline because otherwise they run the risk of falling into the same depravity that doomed them all, because the darkness is always there, that's why Eldar tend to mistrust corsairs, because they don't follow the Paths and you never now if he has fallen. Still they can obsess over the Path themselves, becoming phisically incapable of leaving their chosen Path to the point it starts to warp their bodies. Regardless, the Eldar learned the value of discipline but completely ignored the lesson of humility, still acting full of contemptuous pride over the "lesser races" (i.e.: absolutely everything that isn't them). Eldar are a living example for the human saying that idle hands are the tools of the devil. They became corrupted when there was nothing left to do for them except enjoying their extremely long lives. Exodites remain uncorrupted without a path system because they have to work to survive. Concerning Eldar speciesism: Humanity thinks that it's better than all the others. Eldar KNOW that they are better. They live longer, they don't ruin the planets they inhabit and their souls don't dissipate upon death (well, that's kind of a problem now thanks to the Fall). They left humanity alone throughout the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife. Trouble started with the Imperium. And sorry would you respect a species who is willing to destroy whole planets with billions of their own people just to get rid of a hidden chaos cult? In Warhammer 40k humanity as a whole is at its absolutely worst, I prefer Eldar. They at least assign a value to their own kind and their souls.
  4. Yay, now they just have to release Soul Reaver on Drive ThruRPG and I have everything I need to build my Corsair. Well, except rules for soul stones.
  5. It's all fan-created. Currently the only official playable Eldar ist the Kabalite Warrior from Soul Reaver. EDIT: **** it, how did I manage to overlook all the follow-up posts? I need coffee…..
  6. Doesn't matter anyway. She made a horrible mistake (she wanted to talk to me) so my parents ditched her after she didn't completely agree with them. Now they have found another one. Former alcoholic turned addiction counselor turned author who's now officially retired. He only talks to my parents and has diagnosed that I'm addicted, mentally deformed (hope I'm translating that right but even in German it doesn't make much sense) and "don't have myself". At least that's what my mother tells me he said. Yeah, I wonder when my life turned into a crappy, surreal movie. At least I'll get my bachelor's degree in a few months and can move out. Back to topic: What's there about the special connection of the DE and She-Who-Thirsts? How do they stave her off rules-wise and is there any fluff about how it's different from what the Craftworlders do? (Still hoping that the career path can somehow be modified to a corsair.)
  7. Due to financial reasons, lack of a store who has it and parents who control my mail and tried to steal my Deathwatch core book out of my room to prove to a family consultant that I am mentally ill and evil I have to wait for the download version.
  8. Mjoellnir

    Eldar PCs?

    I'm in the "they won't" camp too. And why FFG wouldn't take advantage of that demand? I don't know. The same reason GW didn't release new Deathwatch kill team rules when the Deathwatch RPG came out, didn't release a Gabriel Angelos miniature when he became chapter master of the Blood Ravens at the end of Dawn of War II Retribution and still haven't released any female Cadian guardswomen even though there was an important one in Space Marine? Businesses make decisions that seem stupid to the customers all the time.
  9. As you said, they do have the choice to bind themselves to soulstones. To make a real-world example (hopefully without sparking a political debate), Craftworld Eldar try to fight global warming by reducing emissions. Dark Eldar try to survive the consequences with air conditioning which makes the greenhouse effect worse. Sure, the Dark Eldar could happily live without having their souls drained off, just like no one likes to live at 50° C, but they are unwilling to go the hard way and limit themselves. The effects of the actions of both peoples should set them at odds.
  10. UncleArkie said: Which just leads back to "please don't eat my soul", the replenishment is just another way of preserving the self which is what is important to the Eldar as a race, they are more like two factions than two races. Mjoellnir said: Craftworld Eldar try to merge into a god that can defeat Slaanesh. Dark Eldar constantly feed Slaanesh therefore making her stronger and increasing her chances to do with Ynnead what she did with the other Eldar gods which means that the essence of all the Eldar who "hid their souls in soul stones" would be devoured by her. If I were an Eldar I would try to kill as many Dark Eldar as possible, capture their souls and bury them in the Black Library. Because in the long term they were trying to feed my soul to Slaanesh. Not mentioning the whole deal of them devouring Eldar souls too whose essence is then again drained from them by Slaanesh. It's not "please don't eat my soul" for the Dark Eldar, it's "please take all you want from my soul, I'll just replenish it later with the soul of some tortured slave." The Dark Eldar allow Slaanesh to constantly feed on them while the Craftworlders lock her out. And with the constant feeding the Dark Eldar improve Slaanesh's chances of beating Ynnead to a pulp and devouring him. Which since he consists of the collected souls of the Craftworlders…. gnah, I'm already repeating myself.
  11. N0-1_H3r3 said: Except that much of the Dark Eldar background changed when the new codex came out. Asdrubael Vect's story in The Torturer's Tale is no longer accurate (because Vect's backstory differs from his account of it there, and because the settlements in the Webway were already heavily inhabited by the cults of excess long before the final days of the Fall), and the matter of what they actually do with their captives has been clarified. Dark Eldar consume the agony and terror of others, essentially devouring souls to replenish their own withered essence. They don't sacrifice others to She Who Thirsts as an alternative to their souls. Strange, I thought they actually republished the story when the new Dark Eldar were released, however, you still don't get what I'm saying. The Dark Eldar don't sacrifice others. Slaanesh slowly leeches off their souls and they replenish it from others. Essentially Slaanesh drinks from a bunch of bottles that is constantly being refilled. The bottles don't become empty at which point they would be thrown into the trash (dead) but Slaanesh still drinks more and more and more.
  12. Kshatriya said: Don't believe the DEldar offer anything to Slaanesh. They hate it too. They keep their spirits bolstered by inflicting pain - they don't give that pain to Slaanesh. The Dark Eldar don't offer anything, but by continuing to live like before the Fall they allow her to take it. From "The Torturer's Tale" (a story Asdrubael Vect tells to a human prisoner in an old White Dwarf. Google it if you want to read the whole thing): "As time passed through an eternal nightmare of half-reality – for the emergence of the Great Enemy created the vortex known to you as the Eye of Terror, engulfing our oldest worlds – it became clear to our hero that She Who Thirsts was not finished with our people, her hunger would never be sated. She had a grip on our spirits and though temporally assuaged by the massive slaking of Her thirst during Her birth, She still needs to drink. Our lord-to-be felt Her thirst lapping at him and saw it in the faces of others, their essence being slowly leeched away by the Nightmare That Hungers." "It seemed there was but one way of escaping Her and that was to flee their homes and leave the physical world behind forever. We came here, into the realm between worlds that we created to traverse the galaxy safe from harm. Here, the Great Enemy's grip is weakened, yet to our Lord's horror it was not wholly broken. He had bought his people time, a little instant of time but nothing more." "Our founder looked upon the outside world, horrified by the beasts rampantly breeding across our domains. But then a thought occurred to him. Perhaps She Who Thirsts would drink others, as well as us. He sent some of his many warriors to capture a few of the man-things that had been spawned by an insignificant blue world in the western spiral arm. His best counselors and experts examined them and indeed these beasts, for all their crudity, still contained that vital essence of life, that spark of spirit that turns a fleshy vessel into a living thing."
  13. UncleArkie said: The Eldar hide their souls in soul stones when they die for them not to be eaten by Slannesh, Dark Eldar hope to appease the Dark Prince by offering up suffering, pleasure and souls to him. Two different approaches to the same conundrum, don't eat my soul please. From Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ynnead#.UAL6rfWnJ-w): "Ynnead represents the last hope of the dwindling Eldar race. They believe that when the Infinity Circuits hold all the spirits of their race, all of the Craftworlds will unite into one Infinity Circuit, and the collective spirits of the Eldar will join to form a new Power in the Warp that will battle and subdue Slaanesh, so that Eldar spirits may once more be able to merge with it and form a single, balanced entity. By doing so, if such a thing is possible, they hope that this will allow the Eldar race to be reborn into a better form. Meanwhile the Craftworlds and the spirit stones must be guarded from harm and continue to survive, so that all Eldar can see and form in their own minds a concept of the Eldar virtues that will enter along with their spirits into the Infinity Circuits." Craftworld Eldar try to merge into a god that can defeat Slaanesh. Dark Eldar constantly feed Slaanesh therefore making her stronger and increasing her chances to do with Ynnead what she did with the other Eldar gods which means that the essence of all the Eldar who "hid their souls in soul stones" would be devoured by her. If I were an Eldar I would try to kill as many Dark Eldar as possible, capture their souls and bury them in the Black Library. Because in the long term they were trying to feed my soul to Slaanesh. Not mentioning the whole deal of them devouring Eldar souls too whose essence is then again drained from them by Slaanesh.
  14. UncleArkie said: Well they approach the whole getting away from Slannesh [the Eldar as a whole] differently, but at the core they are the same culture. The Eldar are not cuddly bunny loving elves, they are ancient, unknowable, scheming things and we humans are little better than angry cattle to them so budding with their darker cousins doesn't seem so far fetched when, it only become odd when you look at them through human eyes. As far as I remember the Eldar collect souls to form a new god who can kick Slaanesh's ass while the Dark Eldar constantly allow Slaanesh to siphon off their soul energy while they replenish it from other sources. That seems like a tiny conflict of interest to me. Face Eater said: Possibly, but traitor Space Marines don't a good record of respecting human life so I can certainly imagine that they wouldn't have a massive amount of mutual respect and Gue'vesa would have been steralised by the Tau and otherwise be treated as second class citizens. Still, traitor guard would often be under the command of a CSM chaos lord. And I'm pretty sure that the Tau don't sterilize everybody, only those who don't want to serve the greater good. Since they are able to include Kroot and Vespids without problem I think Gue'vesa would be as much part of their army, regardless how brainwashed they are. Face Eater said: Well, I used a simple system.for the Xeno's, seeing as the Deathwatch motto is suffer not the Xeno to live i thought their general stance would be never to ally with them, but the Eldar and Tau could conceivably team up with against a worse foe. Should there be more Eldar Tau love? What do you guys think? Well, "Suffer not the alien to live" is mainly an Imperial motto, the Deathwatch were just the ones who were supposed to hunt primarily aliens. Personally I think they would have no problems to ally with Xenos to kill other Xenos without any desperation needed. It's convenient. For example allying with Eldar to defeat Necrons means that you split the losses with them and when you have to fight them later there are less Eldar to worry about.
  15. Gaire said: Face Eater means that Codex: Imperial Guard represents ALL of the regiments of the Imperial Guard, loyal, traitor, and everything in between, and that Codex: Space Marines (theoretically) represents all of the chapters of Space Marine except for the Black Templars, the Blood Angels, the Dark Angels, the Grey Knights, and the Space Wolves. In that case it doesn't make sense either since traitor guard would be battle brothers with CSM and CD while Gue'vesa would be battle brothers with the Tau. Face Eater said: So, here I've made a primlinary list of ally treatment for the Deathwatch its self:Battle Brothers: Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves Allies of conveience: Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle Desperate Allies: Eldar, Tau Come the Apocalypse: Chaos Deamons, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tyranids Doesn't really fit when around 69% of the Space Marines that make up the Deathwatch are BB (battle brothers/best buddies) with the Tau. Okay, that's a bit unfair since it doesn't make sense that they are battle brothers at all either. Personally I would also move the Eldar to the Allies of Convenience. The Deathwatch always struck me as an organization of pragmatists and they and the Eldar share a lot of common enemies. Or maybe they shared, now the Eldar are best buddies with their torturing and soul-devouring brothers. Emperor, I hate daemons of Retcon.
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