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nathrotep

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  1. nathrotep

    If you already have the first edition stuff

    Thanks for your reply.
  2. Will you still get to play the new scenarios that come with the new expansion boxes, or do you have to buy them?
  3. nathrotep

    I hope they don't ruin it like they did with Descent.

    I have a side by side comparison of Descent that I wrote after playing both versions back to back using missions that were very similar. I have broken down all the set up steps, character selection, and the beginning stats as compared to the ending stats of each character, followed by the differences in both versions. However, if you have never played the first edition, it will probably not mean anything to you. The first edition was so vastly superior, (opinion; I realize that, but you would know if you had played it), that it's hard to explain to people that have never experienced it. And, just to clarify, my gaming group love's the longer gaming sessions. 8+ hours is perfect for us when we have all day get-togethers. I completely understand that many fans of the second edition love the shorter play time and much simpler mechanics, and I get that. But my gaming group also had trouble with the silly quests, limited options, and claustrophobically small dungeons. Once again, that may be all opinion based, but the first edition had huge dungeons with swarms of creatures attacking you the whole time, and you could actually die. It was more of a true dungeon crawl. In any event, to each his own. I will stick with the first versions of these two games, and also the many other fine products that my group loves, such as, Arkham Horror, for example. Fantasy Flight Games makes a ton of great games; it just bums me out when they so completely change a game during a re-issue that it no longer even resembles the concept of the original game. If anyone is interested in that comparison, I'd be willing to post it here.
  4. nathrotep

    I hope they don't ruin it like they did with Descent.

    I figured as much. Just from reading the info on this re-boot I could pretty much tell that it was going to be a mess like Descent 2nd edition. My gaming group all hated Descent 2nd edition and felt that it would also be more enjoyed by 10 year olds. We love the original editions of both these games, and have all the expansions for them. It's too bad that FFG is having trouble making the newer versions playable for the fans of the older versions.
  5. nathrotep

    I hope they don't ruin it like they did with Descent.

    After reading all the information that they've posted so far, I'm going to pass on this. While it does not look quite as bad as what was done to Descent, it still doesn't look like it will be as much fun to play as the original. I'd rather err on the side of caution this time around than waste money like I did with the new version of Descent.
  6. This is still one of my favorite games, so I hope that the new version is an improvement over the original. Unlike what they did with Descent, which was to make a completely different game using just the name of the older game. That new version of Descent was the worst game that I ever played.
  7. Robin; It's a simple fact that descent first edition is the superior game. I'm not talking about personal preference, nor am I here to force you to like it. I came on here to discuss the vast differences, inadequacies, and missing game elements between the two games. They hyped up this game as a better and more streamlined version of Descent first edition. Then I played it, and it was not. It's just that simple. You defeat yourself with your own argument regardless since you have nothing to form your observations on. How do you know it's not 'flawed' if you have never played both? If I cannot say that Descent first edition is the better game, then you cannot say that descent second edition is not flawed in comparison. You bask in your own ignorance, and to you that must be bliss. Why are you getting so worked up about this anyway? You clearly enjoy the second game, clearly cannot grasp the differences between two, and clearly don't care. Why don't you just play the simple games that work for you best and not worry about the rest? It's not trolling to debate the virtues, or lack thereof, of the two games. It's educational, and it lets people know what the differences are, and what they are possibly missing out on. To come on here and attack my position, especially with such a lack of concrete experience, would seem to me to be a futile waste of your time. Why bother?
  8. Robin, I'm sorry that you where unable to understand the instructions enough to play the game. That must be very limiting for you. It's a good thing that they made a so much simpler game for you to enjoy. Might I also suggest checkers as an alternative if you ever get bored of Descent 2?
  9. I don't have a problem with your preference in fruit. But the word "preference" denotes that you have tried both varieties and are fully prepared to make a choice based on the comparison. You cannot simply say, "Say, there! I really like oranges! They are the best fruit ever! And, although I have never tried, and will never, ever in a million years try apples, I can tell you that, by far, oranges are the tastier of the two delectables! In fact, I read somewhere that apples are horrible! Just the absolute worst! Since I have clearly read this, that means it's a fact, and so I don't have to ever try apples to see if it's true or not!" Macnme, you have many great points, and as you can see, I'm not berating people for their choice in games. I am berating people WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED Descent first edition, yet still claim it's the weaker title. At least you have played the game, and admit that it is a good one. Most of these people on here have never even seen it. My gaming group played Descent 2 when it was demo'd, and thought it was awful compared to the first one. It was a real let down to us all. You obviously see something in it that we don't. And that's entirely okay with me. Sausagman; as always, you put things more eloquently than I do, and are entirely right. I suppose that both games have merit, but as you have pointed out, this aint the Descent we were hoping for. As I've said before, this was like playing Tic-Tac-Toe after playing Chess. And that's just sad. We expected so much more. It's a good thing I love many of Fantasy Flights other games. We sure won't ever be playing Descent second edition, or collecting the expansions. We're really excited about the up and coming, 'Relic', though. This title looks compelling; it'll be interesting to see the Warhammer stuff mixed with Talisman game mechanics.
  10. Okay, so you're saying that it's just my opinion and I'm biased. I get that. You're saying that it's a personal choice and not a fact. I get that too. Let me just stick to the facts then. Let me just list things that are actual facts that cannot be refuted by you. DESCENT FIRST EDITION HAS: -More skills -Two different types of skills -More 'other' items -More weapons -More armor -More runes -More treasure -More familiars -More magic items -More OL cards -Special treachery OL cards -More monsters -More traps -Larger dungeons Now, you can say that 'more' does not necessarily mean 'better'. I've heard that argument before. But, you cannot refute that more means more choices. And with more choices, you have more ways to do things throughout the game. For example; IN DESCENT FIRST EDITION YOU CAN: -Buy and sell weapons -Buy and sell armor -Buy skills -Buy training -Buy and sell runes -Upgrade your character in any way you choose -Go outside your characters 'archetype' (which means that you can use anything you want) -Use glyphs to teleport to different parts of the dungeon -Upgrade the OL deck before you start with treachery cards -Customize your hero's in any way you choose Once again, you could say personal preference is the issue. But with all of these choices, you have several different ways to play the game. The OL has several different ways to win, and so do the hero's. You don't have that in Descent second edition. What do you have in Decent second edition? WHAT DESCENT SECOND EDITION HAS THAT FIRST EDITION DOESN'T: -Absolutely nothing. So, once again, you can say that it's still just my opinion. That it's a personal choice. That everyone has the right to like or not like either game. And you would be right. But, surely you can clearly see that after playing the first edition, the second edition seems a very limited and not so complex game? Can you not agree that, after playing the first one, the second would seem to me to be a boring, dumbed down, complete waste of my time? To me, that makes the first edition better. And, since most of you won't even play it, you will never know how much better it really is. I own and play both versions. I have read through the rules, been through both games; how many of you can say that? I think that I have more experience, have done more research, and am more qualified than you to make these observations. Even if they are biased. The first edition has more of everything, is more complex has better character expansion, better OL threat, more options, it's more challenging, more thought provoking, and therefore is a much better game. But you go ahead and have fun with Descent 2. Nothing wrong with that.
  11. Then you don't even know that I'm right since you've never played it. My response was answering several other replies I got. A lot of people said that Descent 2 was the better game. Most of them have never played Descent first edition. I thought maybe since I had only played it once, that they might have a point. So I tried it again and made my comparison. They were wrong. After playing the first edition, the second one is terrible. Specifically, some of the things they said were; Descent second edition is more tactical; it isn't. Descent first edition is a 'broken' game; it isn't. In descent first edition, it's just a matter of 'out-gearing' the OL; it isn't. Descent second edition has better skills; it doesn't. Descent second edition has more options in game play; it doesn't. The Descent first edition rules were 'wonkey'; they're not. These are some of the things that I have proven by playing both games and writing my comparison. The first edition clearly blows away the second edition. It's fine if you like the second edition; have fun with that. But you cannot say that I am wrong since you have never played the first one. The first edition is the better game on so many levels. The second edition is just a dumbed down version of it. But, as you say, it's totally fine that you have fun playing the second version. I wrote my comparison to prove the points listed above, not to put you down.
  12. Have you even played Descent first edition?
  13. This is a fair comparison; I do not need to play the second edition again. It was bad enough to get through the first time after playing the real one. It's enough to just look at the two games side by side; Descent one offers more options and is by far the better game. It's not even a contest. I have listed everything in this comparison; it is perfectly obvious.
  14. In response to all of you; I went out and purchased a used copy of Descent second edition for $40. To fairly compare the two editions, I chose a quest from the first edition to play through, then a quest from the second edition. The quest I chose from the first edition is called; 'The Eternal Guardian', and involves a relic called, 'Bright Blade'. The quest I chose from the second edition is called; 'The Dawnblade', and also involves a relic called, 'Dawnblade'. Both quests involve a similar relic item, so I thought they would be good for this comparison. For this comparison, I've chosen to use the exact same hero characters: 'Jonas the Kind’, 'Tobin Farslayer', 'Kirga', and, 'Runewitch Astarra'. I am running all four characters myself for both quests, and I have my OL running both quests with me. I will try to keep their basic starting equipment as closely the same as possible. I started with the first edition quest since I was certain that I would enjoy that one more than the second. In the first edition, the characters start out with $300 gold, 3 random skills from the main Skill decks, and 3 random skills from the Feat decks, which I like to call the 'subterfuge' cards. The Feat deck cards you keep face down and use when applicable during your turn, or during the OL's turn. They are used to mess with the OL's plans. Once used, you then discard the Feat card. When picking a regular skill card, if the player doesn't like it, they can discard it one time to choose another which you must then keep. I actually like this method since you never know what you're going to get. To me, that makes it more interesting and much more of a challenge. You have to use the cards you're dealt and I think it's just more fun this way. With the $300 gold, you may then purchase cards from the Purchase deck. These cards are fully assessable. You can look at them, touch them, READ them. Then, you can buy them. This is NOT random! I don't see how anyone can claim that it is. You choose the cards you want, then buy them. Here I will break down for you which cards I drew from the Skill decks, and which cards I purchased from the Purchase deck, for each character. I will do a similar break down below for when I get set up for the second edition dungeon. Dice rolled for attack with weapons I will put by first letter of the color in parenthesis separated by slash marks. Jonas the Kind Skills: Tiger Tattoo- +1 speed, +1 max fatigue, no damage from pit traps. Brawler- +1 melee attack, one damage to all adjacent figures. Sharr the Brightwing (familiar)- Speed of 6, +2 health to characters it lands on. Feats: We Are Not Afraid- Use at start of heros or OL's turn, result=OL loses 4 threat. Riposte- Use after OL attacks, result=counter attack. Fend- Use before OL rolls dice for attack, result= +4 armor for length of turn. Basic Equipment: Chain mail- +2 armor. Sword- (R/G) 3 surges= +1 damage, offhand bonus= +1 damage. Morning Star- (R/Y/Y) 3 surges= +1 damage, offhand bonus= +1 dam/free surge. 1 Health Potion Tobin Farslayer Skills: Marksman- +1 range for ranged or magic attack. Precision- Ignore 1 figure or obstacle for line of sight. Master Archer- +2 surges with a ranged attack. Feats: Disarm- roll power die for traps within 3 spaces, result=if not a blank, disarm trap. Hustle- +3 movement Evade- use after a OL's successful attack, result= roll a surge to take no damage. Basic Equipment: Chain Mail- +2 armor. Crossbow- (B/G) 2 surges= +1 damage, 3 surges= +1 range. 1 Health Potion Kirga Skills: Shadow Soul (familiar)- Speed of 4, may switch places with Shadow Soul b4 turn. Swift- +2 speed. Cautious- OL receives 1 fewer threat per turn, take 1 less damage from traps. Feats: Hustle- +3 movement. Hustle- +3 movement Disarm- roll power die for traps within 3 spaces, result=if not a blank, disarm trap. Basic Equipment: Leather Armor- +1 armor. Crossbow- (B/G) 2 surges= +1 damage, 3 surges= +1 range. 1 Health, 1 Stamina Potion Runewitch Astarra Skills: Inner Fire- +2 range, +1 damage. Necromancy- Reanimate 1 small, un-named enemy to control, roll power die after. Mata and Kata (familiar)- Speed of 6, can fetch and carry objects. Feats: We Are Not Afraid- Use at start of heros or OL's turn, result=OL loses 4 threat. Transparent- Gain Stealth for rest of the turn. Protect thyself- +2 armor to every hero within 3 spaces for rest of turn. Basic Equipment: Leather armor- +1 armor. Magic Staff- (W/Y) 2 surges= +1 damage or +1 range. 1 Health Potion The results of this game were: hero's won, play time approx. 6 or more hours, Jonas died twice and Astara died twice during the game. I won't go into detail, but below I will list the ending equipment, skills and/or training purchased, and feats that were used. (You draw one feat card for each player each time a glyph is activated). Jonas the Kind Ending Equipment: Dragon Scale Mail- +4 armor, speed reduced to 3, immune to bleed, burn, and poison. Mirror Shield- cancel 2 wounds, no effects tokens can be placed on you. Blade of Light-(R/G/G/Y/Y) +1 damage per surge, or pierce 10 Bottle Imp (familiar) Speed of 4, aura of 1 Skills Purchased: Unmovable- When using battle order, gain auto guard order, +1 armor. Additional Feats: Blocked- Use after OL attacks, blocked on the roll of a surge. Killing Blow- Choose the results of your attack dice 1 time except the red one. Follow Through- +2 damage. Tobin Farslayer Ending Equipment: Wings of Regiroth- Gain the ability 'flying', +2 speed. Chain Mail- +2 armor. Bow of the Hawk- (B/G/G/Y) Pierce 3, may re-roll 1 die during attack. Training Purchased: +1 power die for ranged attacks. Additional Feats: Shooting For Distance- +8 range. Shooting For Distance- +8 range. Backstab- 1 free attack before OL rolls attack dice. Kirgo Ending Equipment: Robes of Kellos-+3 armor vs ranged/magic, +1 armor vs melee, may equip 2 extra 'other' type items. Scorpion Helmet- +2 range, +1 damage. Bow of Bone- (B/G/Y) Peirce 3, 1 surge= +1 damage or range. Skills Purchased: Rapid Fire- Gain +1 attack for 2 fatigue. Additional Feats: ***** in the Armor- Pierce 4. Foiled Plans- Look at 2 OL cards; OL must discard 1. Shooting for Distance- +8 range. Runewitch Astarra: Ending Equipment: Black Widows Web- (B/Y/Y) 1 surge= +1 damage or range, 2 surges= +1 web token. Mithril Breast Plate- +3 armor. Flame Strike (Rune)- (W/G/G/Y) Blast 2 and burn, 2 surges= +1 blast or burn. Skills Purchased: Vampiric Blood- +1 fatigue for each killing blow. Additional Feats: Focus- +2 surges. Flaming Fury- +3 burn. Protect Thyself- +2 armor to every hero within 3 spaces for rest of the turn. As you can clearly see, there are quite a few choices and different things that you can get in this game to give you a tactical edge, and I didn't even list cards that I sold or didn't use throughout the game. This is clearly not just a simple matter of if we 'renamed' the item cards in second edition then they'd be 'cool' enough for me to use. This is about having better items that do different things. Remember that you can go back to town by using glyphs to buy and sell equipment, purchase training tokens, or gain new skills. These are just the things I bought or chose to use in this particular game. You can choose anything and play it anyway you want, in any combination. There was nothing unbalanced about this, nor was it in any way over equipping or 'out gearing' the OL. The OL set up her deck using treachery points and the OL's treachery deck before the game. This treachery deck is used in addition to the OL's base deck. She had access to cards for all the monsters in the game when putting it together, plus all the special cards. This deck has 47 special treachery based cards. Trust me, she was plenty tough to beat. This game ran smooth, was very challenging, and a great deal of fun to play. In fact, we played a second dungeon after this one, and the OL won that one. It’s different every time. Now let's take a look at the Descent second edition; In Descent second edition you have to pick an ‘archetype’. This forces you into using a preset deck of about 10 skill cards. These are the only skills you will be able to get throughout the whole game. They incorporate ideas from the two types of skill decks in the first edition. Unless you are playing advanced or expert mode, you only get the default weapon/equipment and basic skill cards used by your ‘archetype’ to start with. If playing on expert, you also get 6 points to use to buy additional skills, and $250 gold to purchase items from the act I and act II shop cards. Since these cards are so limited, you are forced to get what you can. For example, there is only one suit of chainmail; I had to buy an act II set of armor that cost me my full $250 gold for Tobin. As you can clearly see, this is far less choices than Descent first edition in both skills and equipment. Below is the breakdown of the starting skills and equipment I was able to get at expert level; Jonas The Kind Skills: Prayer of Healing-Exhaust, hero + adjacent recover 1 red die health. Radiant Light-Roll power die; each hero in line of sight recovers amount rolled, monsters suffer damage rolled. Blessed Strike- Attack; if successful, you and 1 hero adjacent get 2 health. Time of Need- Receive 2 movement, recover 2 health. Basic Equipment: Wooden Shield- Exhaust to add 1 defense to die roll. Steel Broadsword- (R/B) Once per attack; re-roll red die. Surge= +1 damage. Iron Mace - (B/Y) Surge=stun. Chainmail- +1 defense die. Dawnblade- (B/R/Y) Surge= +3 damage. Surge= attack effects 2nd monster adjacent. (gained this weapon at end of act 1) Tobin Farslayer Skills: Black Arrow- Bow attack gains +1 range, If less than 3 damage after defense, deal 3 instead. Bow Mastery- Exhaust to add 1 surge. Nimble- When a monster moves adjacent, move one space, then monster may activate. Eagle Eyes- Friendly figures do not block line of sight. Basic Equipment: Platemail- Add one black defense die. Movement reduced to 3. Cannot equip runes. Yew Shortbow- (B/Y) Surge= +2 range or +1 damage. Kirga Skills: Greedy- Search a search token within 3 spaces. Thief- After drawing a search card, you may pick a new one. Sneaky- +1 on attacks against monsters that did not have line of sight at the start of your turn. Dirty Tricks- Attack with melee or blade= If attack deals at least 1 damage, stun. Lurk- Exhaust to perform a search action that does count as an action. +1 brown defense die. Basic Equipment: Leather Armor- +1 health. +1 brown defense die. Lucky Charm- Exhaust to reroll attribute test. Crossbow- (B/Y) Pierce 1, surge= +2 damage or +1 damage and move target 1 space. Throwing Knives- (B/Y) Attack adjacent monsters= +1 damage, surge= +1 range. Runewitch Astarra: Skills: Reanimate- (familiar) with 3 speed, 4 lives, no defense, (B/R) attack, surge= +1 damage. Raise Dead- Place your familiar token adjacent to you. Undead Might- familiar gains +2 health, exhaust= +1 to familiar’s attack. Vampiric Blood- familiar gains 1 yellow power die, +1 fatigue when defeating a monster. Dark Pact- Familiar gains 1 brown defense die, each damage suffered can be suffered by either you or familiar. Basic Equipment: Leather Armor- +1 health, +1 brown defense die. Reaper’s Scythe- (B/Y) Surge= +1 range, defeat monster= +1 health. Ice Storm- (B/Y/Y) Surge= immobilize or +2 damage. The results of this game were; hero’s won. Play time around 4 to 5 hours. No one died. In this game you just get “knocked out”. No one gets any points for it; it doesn’t really matter at all since you “revive”, or, “stand up” on your next turn in the exact same spot. In Descent first edition, you get a set amount of ‘conquest tokens’ for each dungeon, and you gain tokens from chests and by activating glyphs. When the OL kills a hero, they get the amount of points that the hero is worth in conquest tokens. If the hero’s ever run out of tokens, you lose the game. Also, in Descent first edition, you get gold for killing the red monsters. In the second edition, you get absolutely nothing. I would list the ending equipment, but it was exactly the same as the starting equipment except for the Dawnblade, which I got at the end of act 1. There was nothing to collect, buy, or trade, no way to upgrade your character, and no real reason to do so. It was pretty much what you had to start with for the whole game. This game had no weapons bonus for the off-hand weapon, there was no buying and selling items, no extra skill cards. There were no feat cards, no upgrading your skills and abilities, and no purchasing training. There were no treasure cards, no gold, no points awarded for kills. There was no equipping better gear, no way to get better gear, and no added danger that would require you to do so. There was no danger of losing just from running out of conquest tokens. The map itself was incredibly small. In Descent first edition, the dungeons are huge with lots of room to move. There was no room to maneuver in the second edition, no way to out flank, no opportunities to achieve your objective in any other way than to go straight at it. This game was not tactical at all. Pretty much you just went towards your objective while the OL either tried to stop you, or tried to achieve the OL’s own objective first. I cannot believe this got such good reviews. I am just really glad that I didn’t pay full price for this. As far as the person who commented that his OL in the first edition was beating him, and saying that the dungeon they were playing was ‘broken’, well it’s just too bad that the OL figured out a way to win then, isn’t it? When that happens to me, I ask for a rematch. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries, but I never let a dungeon go without beating it. Maybe you should have tried harder. In conclusion, Descent second edition is not better than Descent first edition. In Descent first edition, your characters grow, develop, gain strength, new skills, better gear, new weapons and become richer with gold. By the end of the game, whether you win or lose, you feel as if the characters have been on a long journey and have become better and stronger for the experience. In Descent second edition, there is none of this growth or satisfaction. Your characters are the same as when they started. And, since you don’t gain anything at all in terms of new skills, weapons, gear, or even gold, there is absolutely no satisfaction from seeing that they have developed from their original personas. This flat and featureless game sucks away all the fun of what playing a good dungeon adventure should be. This was a fair comparison done with both games played back to back. I have stated the cards used for each game, the rules, and the outcomes. If you just look at this comparison between the two games, it is abundantly and perfectly clear that I am right when I say that Decent first edition is the better game. There is nothing more to say.
  15. In response to Triu, and Sausageman; Thank you for at least identifying that I have some validity. I did not start this to troll or argue. As one of you pointed out, I am very zealous in my appreciation for a game that I believe has been reconstituted into something I can barely recognize. Some people, in their blind hatred for something they can never hope to understand, tend to lash out at my opinions, which makes me retaliate in kind. I apologize for my extreme defense of my stance, and hope that you both will continue to understand where I'm coming from. Now for mister Grumpypants… In response to Khal; Look, trying to explain this to you is like trying to describe colors to a blind person. You're never going to be able to understand it, nor do you have the capacity to do so. The fact that you think Descent second edition is such an amazing tactical game shows me right where your level of gaming skill and competency is at. I have all the expansions, every rule and variant for Descent first edition, and have been playing it for years. Even if you had the ability to learn the game, you don't have what it takes to play it, or even enjoy it on the levels that I do. People that complain about wonky mechanics are just the people that are not smart enough to figure out how to play the game properly. The game has always ran as smooth as butter for me with no problems. That there are a bunch of people complaining about how they can't play it right just shows that there are more idiots out there than smart people. Historically, there have always been more idiots than smart people on the face of the planet; that's an incontrovertible fact. If you don't believe me, just watch the news or read the newspaper. All of this is beside the point, and none of it matters, since FFG will be making the game better as they release more expansions. Slowly, and over time, so people like you will be able to understand it, they will reintroduce all the concepts from the Descent first edition until the second edition becomes just as good, if not better. That is inevitable. The more people that can understand how to play it, the more copies they will sell. That's simple supply and demand, my kooky young friend. It's just basic economics. Wait! I almost forgot! You only understand things if they're laid out in numbered paragraphs! Let me break it down for you, champ; 1. Descent second edition will get better as they release expansions until it is as good as, if not better than, Descent first edition. Nothing you can say will change that; you cannot stop it from happening. 2. FFG will do this slowly, over time, so that people like you will be able to figure out how to play it right and, thereby, will want to continue to buy it. 3. The color red is warm, like the sun. The color blue is cool, like water…
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