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darkdeal

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Posts posted by darkdeal

  2. Posted

     Leagues serve the same purpose as a tournament, it is just a different format for the "tournament". It is all about some type of organized play that gives players the opportunity to win things. On that note, I think my argument works even if you substitute league in place of tournament. 

    A league will accomplish the same thing as a tournament in drawing interest, assuming there are enough players to pique peoples interest. A league would also still have those players that would want to make a different deck every week just for innovations sake and those people are more likely to buy 3 of everything. 

    So, the OP's question can be posited the same way substituting tournament with league. "Why are 'leagues' so important?" I think the more appropriate question would be why is organized play so important, and I think I answered that adequately.

  3. Posted

     A large tournament scene is important even to those who do not play in tournaments. 

    Firstly, tournament level players typically find the holes that testers or casual players miss. This leads to better constructed cards for balance. 

    Secondly, tournaments draw interest. If players see that there is actually a following for a game, they are more likely to play/invest. I have purchased a lot of cards for this game, and although it is incredibly fun, I somewhat regret it because nobody else in my area is willing to invest in the product. I refuse to support the 3 other people I have taught to play the game. They just really don't want to invest because there is not a large enough following. I know it's circular, but people typically don't want to be the first. 

    Third is support, indirectly. Tournament players want to keep as up to date as possible, and typically try to find every minute advantage they can. This means they are more likely to buy the 3x of everything that has singles in it. It also means they will buy everything rather than just buying specific battlepacks that best support pet decks. Both of those things are more money for FFG and in turn a greatly reduced chance the game will die. Casual players may decide to just stop buying product because they are happy with what they have. 

    I have heard some try to compare this to a board game rather than a CCG. I think that it is about equally far off either way. Board games you buy once and are done forever usually. The LCG still involves a once a month investment and sometimes its not so minimal. CCG's are typically a lot more expensive, but the nature of it being Collectible means that you can get your money back from the cards if you know how to read the market. The last time I sold my M:tG collection was for $1,400 and that is probably less than what I had in it. I don't think I could sell my W:I collection. Who would buy it if there is nothing to be gained?

    My point ultimately is that a competative tournament scene keeps the game alive. Even as a casual player of W:I, one should not want the game to die.

  4. Posted

     There are evolutions past the Bolt Thrower deck, but they are still unplayable because, despite Bolt Thrower being the best deck right now, rush is still the most played. The midrange aggro/control decks that can beat Bolt Thrower are dogs to a good rush deck and that makes them unplayable. When the majority of players shift to Bolt Thrower, which may never happen given that people may not want to be that competative or buy 3x of everything, then Bolt Thrower will not be as dominating because there will be good mechanisms to keep it in check. If the player base of this game were even a quarter of what M:tG has, then the metagame and decks would be more diverse because people could choose to play the midrange decks and have a good tournament showing knowing that there will be a large number of good match-ups at a tournament. The casual nature of W:I as of right now makes that not likely. 

    Competative players have found the "best deck" and the player base of the game as a whole is too casual to adapt. 

  5. Posted

    It depends on your local group. If you are playing where other people do have 3 of everything, there is a chance you won't be able to compete. For example, most of the mass removal spells are only in as a 1x in the sets. Judgement of Verena, Master Rune of Valaya, Gifts of Aenarion are all one-ofs, and Flames of the Phoenix is a 2x in its BP. So if you want to play the Bolt Thrower deck, which is also a 1x, you won't be able to with just one of each set.

     

    Orc rush does very well with only one of each set. This may also cause a problem though as with only one of each set, orc rush is far and away the best deck. With 3 of every card, there is a decent environment for many decks.

     

    *note to FFG, it would be nice if there were a way to buy singles for a set price. Maybe a quarter ($0.25) each? I would like to pick up another 3 Clan Moulder Elites and Greyseer Thanquols and some other cards so that I can make more than one deck that uses those neutral cards.
     

  6. Posted

    A lot of players don't research things on the internet before they buy a game and it would be hard for those players to know they weren't going to print the other races. I have thought about not buying anymore W:I cards just due to the tournaments not being good. There is no incentive to go to a tournament and without that competitive aspect of a game, the game will grow boring. Its not fun playing the same 5 people over and over and over.

  7. Posted

    Clamatius has a Bolt Thrower list that is far and away better than any other I have played. DE decks have very little chance of beating it and to get the best of 3 is probably close to 5%. It also has a pretty close to even match against a good orc rush deck. Until the meta shifts away from rush and more towards control, the BT deck will be the best.

  9. Posted

    I have purchased 3 of every BP released (core sets too), and I would still like to be able to buy more Greyseer Thanquols and Clan Moulder's Elites and a few other cards just because I play 3 of those in more than one deck. I am not going to buy a whole BP for a single card.

  10. Posted

    I don't like it because it does effectively restrict cards for players who did purchase more than one of each set. I have 3 of everything released thus far and I would be really pissed off if they did that so that I basically wasted 2/3 of the money I put into the game.

    They really do just need to include 3 of everything in every set they release.

  11. Posted

    Clamatius said:

    I sleeved up darkdeal's DE list today, so we'll see how it does tonight vs. Seduction Skaven (which we like a lot more than the Manchester version).  The main reason why we expect the Seduction list is better against DE than the Manchester version is that you can play supports to Quest, which the DE can't shut down unlike a random Squig Herder or something.  If they are drawing a bunch of cards they can just play dorks and hit you with them before the Sorceresses kill them and that's how the Orcs usually win.  We shall see.  Previously, my DE list was a little bit worse than 50%, probably something like 40% vs Seduction Skaven.

    I am curious if you ever got around to playing with my DE list very much. I would like to know how often Call was good against orcs just because of We'z Bigga!.

  12. Posted

    Whether you like it or not, the metagame is something that you need to take into account in any card game that has tournaments. All the metagame refers to is what the most played decks are. You don't have to be playing any of the most popular decks, but you need to know that they are the most popular so you don't play completely useless cards in your deck, or you can play cards that are decent. The reason We Need Your Blood is even playable right now is because of all the Skaven (and other 1 HP units) that people play right now. If the metagame were such that most players used units that had 3 or 4 HP, that card would be near useless in your deck. This is really only applicable if you plan to play in tournaments, or you have friends that like to play what is trendy.

    My advise to new players would be to learn timing and what the best opportunity is to play certain cards. Like Mob Up, don't use it until after the opponent tries to cancel your damage just so it gets rid of that card in their hand.

  13. Posted

    The easiest way that I can think of would be some sort of combo type deck. You play out 6 or 7 resources to your kingdom zone, play a Reap Whats Sown for the max (discarding all your units in your hand), then hope to get into some innovations, cast another reap whats sown (again discarding units from your hand), to get into more innovations and a Morvael's Legacy, cast it and get back all the units you discarded to Reap Whats Sown.

    I think the most powerful 10 cost epic spell is probably the dark elves. They can just take the units, then attack an undefended zone for the win.

  14. Posted

    Well, imagine if you only have a limited amount of damage on your guys and you want to trigger your "heal" cards as much as possible. If a card triggered on everytime a card healed another, then the Archmage would end up getting more triggers. Currently, the cards that trigger on healing are worded so that the initiate is better, but you never know what cards can be printed down the line.

  15. Posted

    I think that is wrong. The BT deck is designed with Rush decks in mind and that is why it is good NOW. If there were no rush decks, there would be more midrange decks that packed more support and development hate. Orc decks would run things like Pillage and Vomit and Smash-Go-Boom! and Grimgor and I think it would destroy the BT deck.

     

  17. Posted

    Mob up is ok as a way to combat the BT decks, but I think going back to Rip Dere Eads Off is better. If you play Grimgor into the Kingdom and Rip it when the Bolt Thrower deck gets a lot of board presence, it is really destructive. Rip can also be used to get rid of random developments or to push through a little more damage if you put your grimgor in the battlefield. I think it may be time for that to make a comeback if the BT decks become popular.

  19. Posted

    Yea, I wanted to come in here to say that I was wrong. I made a different BT list a couple days ago. Clamatius's list. It was by far superior to the original BT list I had. Reap Whats Sown is insane. The orc list still won a good amount of the games, but it was closer to 50/50 ( a lot depending on who went first). It is now my opinion that the Bolt Thrower deck is the best deck of the 3 tier 1 decks. DE/Skaven still beats the Orcs, but DE/Skaven is really terrible against the BT deck.

    I also tried to make a Destruction BT deck and it seems like it would really beat the Order BT deck, but I don't know how it would do against rush. The mass removal isn't as good as the Order list, but there is a ton of spot removal.

  20. Posted

    The reasons Flames wasn't a problem is because I did the opposite of what you said to do in your write-up of skaven v bolt thrower from the skaven point of view. As an Orc/Skaven player, I would attack on my turn one or two (depending on if I went first or not) against the bolt throwers quest zone. I usually don't burn it but get around 6 damage consistently. My next battlefield phase, If I have enough power to hit for 8+, rather than waste all the extra damage burning a zone that has only 2 or 3 HP left, I will burn the clean battlefield zone unless they have a Master Rune. At this point, the Bolt Thrower deck is still trying to develop. If they hold back too much to keep a fog effect online, then they are only hindering themselves. If I do get the battlefield burnt, I only have a few more points to deal to the quest zone. That is why Flames doesn't matter, because I can use my 3 or 4 resources post flames to replay some units and attack for the win anyway.

    Side note 1. I agree that Waaagh! is pretty win-more and will probably trade it out for Mob Up or Troll Vomit depending on how testing goes with both.

    Side note 2. I agree that Orc Control is right on the edge. With an answer to every type of card in the game except for quests (who plays those anyway), they seem well situated. I think their problem right now is they need just one more early defensive card against rush or they need a way to ramp faster into their epic spell.

  21. Posted

    ddm5182 said:

    Sure, sure... I get all of your card choices.  The DE build seems fine.

    Orc build... I dont see how you can play Sellswords if you expect rush to be part of the meta.  Orc build w/ sellswords gives up a big % to a mirror without them.  I do agree its a plus vs. bolt thrower but I'm skeptical of the inclusion.

    As above, your build loses hard to unit-based disruption, particularly Firestorm, Vile Sorcs, and Flames of the Phoenix.  Thats why we opted for a much higher support density.  You're certainly embracing the "high variance" plan for the bolt thrower matchup, but doing some quick math... they're going to see the Flames often enough to make me nervous, considering you are just about stone cold to the card.  That's assuming they mull any hand without one, and to be fair, some players may not.

    Your build is cold to Mountain Legion too.

    So basically you're tuning orcs to "beat" bolt thrower (I still doubt whether you are even 50/50 without Mob Up! honestly) and lose to more midrangey Orc/Skaven builds, DE/Skaven builds, Dwarves, and Chaos.  I don't really like the plan, but I get where you're coming from.

    And even though you're not playing it, I think Rock Lobber might well be worth testing vs. bolt thrower...

    I will repeat myself for the third time in hopes that maybe this time you will read it. FLAMES OF THE PHOENIX IS DEAD AGAINST THE ORC DECK. It does nothing. Reread my post above to get why if you need to. By the time you can play the flames, it wont be enough because I can play enough attackers on my turn to win anyway. The orc deck also does not lose to Dwarves or Chaos because they are too slow to stabilize. Also, a good player will know the best time to play the sellswords if they are going to hurt you when the opponent gets them.

    Again, this is not from theorycraft, as you seem to be doing by assuming my builds weaknesses. I have actually played these matches quite a bit.

    My DE/Skaven build is built to combat Orc Rush and the mirror match. The Globadiers are usually really strong when they hit play. The number of cards dedicated to handling units makes the DE deck a dog to the BT deck though. I think thats ok as I don't feel the majority of players will know how to play the BT deck good enough and I may get wins just because of that.

  22. Posted

    Sorry for the spam posting (would be easier if there was an edit button). I will just post my current lists for the sake of ease.

    Orc/Skaven Rush

     

    Units: 36
    3 Clan Rats
    3 Gutter Runners
    3 Clan Moulder's Elite
    3 Deathmaster Sniktch
    3 Greyseer Thanquol
    3 Veteran Sellswords
    3 Followers of Mork
    3 Spider Riders
    3 Crooked Teef Goblins
    3 Snotling Pump Wagon
    3 Squig Herders
    3 Lobber Crew

    Support: 9
    3 Choppa
    3 Contested Village
    3 Warpstone Excavation

    Tactics: 5
    3 Innovation
    2 Waaagh!

     

     


    DE/Skaven

    Units: 27
    3 Clan Rats
    3 Gutter Runners
    3 Clan Moulder's Elite
    3 Deathmaster Sniktch
    3 Greyseer Thanquol
    3 Poison Wind Globadiers
    3 Vile Sorceress
    3 Walking Sacrifice
    3 Shades

    Support: 8
    3 Contested Village
    3 Warpstone Excavation
    2 Har Ganeth

    Tactics: 15
    3 Chittering Horde
    3 Hate
    3 Innovation
    3 Call the Blood
    3 Chillwind

    If you need any specific card choice reasons, just ask.

  23. Posted

    Another note. I am not theorycrafting. I was playtesting. We even rotated decks and talked to each other as to best possible plays. I am the better player in my group and I know the in's and out's of every deck as I have built and played them all.

    My orc deck I try to build as explosive as possible. I forgo the Pillages and Troll Vomits and the excess stuff for more cheap dudes that can attack the other players base as fast as possible. I find that Pillage is pretty pointless when you can win by the time it could hit anything relevant. I get turn 3-4 wins quite a bit more than 50% of the time btw.

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