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crowdedmind

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Posts posted by crowdedmind

  1. Posted

    Clamatius said:

     

     Yeah, CtS just seems too slow in most matchups.  You essentially have to skip a whole turn of playing stuff to get 1 card from them that they haven't played yet, which doesn't seem worth it.  Sometimes you'll get a Deathmaster, Flames of the Phoenix or Judgement just at the right moment, but you draw so many cards in this game that discard effects just aren't as good as in Magic.

     

     

    Whether or not you can play it depends upon how easily you can get the 3L as the 2C fits my economy quite well.  In some games the card was a development because I was holding units that would be a more positive play, but on other occasions it was incredibly powerful, hitting Judgement, Thanquol etc.  I use it in the following ways:

    1. Dealing with my opponent's power cards (Judgement etc).
    2. Turning Har Garneth into a kill action.
    3. Forcing my opponent to play Gifts, thus avoiding giving them resources.
    4. Reinforcing the hand control the scouts give you.
    5. Forcing my opponent to play units that get hit by Sniktch, Vile Sorceress etc by removing the alternatives.
     

    It's certainly a personal choice to play the card however and I could well see another player swapping in Chittering Horde etc. Having that targeted discard suits my playstyle however so it finds a spot over other cards.  I probably wouldn't play it if Walking Sacrifice didn't exist and I can certainly see myself reducing it to a 2x or ditching it as new cards are released.

    Smash 'em All could be a reasonble choice for an Orc deck, but for Dark Elves it costs 3, which essentially means that it costs 4 and I have to hope that the High Elf player doesn't draw into a Judgement or Flames.  Most quests are too slow to be worthwile at the moment.

     

  2. Posted

    Clamatius said:

    Right now, the decks that I have that are in the 50% range vs. the original list (i.e. wins come down to luck and skill):

     

    Repeater Bolt Thrower (this is our #1 tournament deck pick atm)

    DE Skaven

    Chaos Skaven

    Mono Dwarves (f*** yeah!)

    Orc Control (ish, haven't tested this enough to know for sure) 

     

    I'm surprised that you rate Bolt Thrower so highly.  We find that in every single game there's a turn or two where you just cross your fingers and hope that you draw a fog otherwise you lose.  You can also play the deck perfectly and still lose based on the blitz player's opening hand becasue they drew into that crazy start.  I think that Bolt Thrower is a tier 1 deck, but blitz is currently sitting in a broken tier 0.

    I agree with Dwarves however.  It sucks a bit that you can't play any on the bigger Dwarf units, but they have an effective build against a lot more of the field than people imagine.

    I find it amusing that they preview a Skaven support that costs 4 and effectively produces three resources each turn (plus lets you play Chittering Horde in your opponent's turn for free) and our general opinion of it is that it's too slow.  That says a lot about the environment.

    Clamatius said:

    Every deck still has 3x Warpstone, 3x Contested Village, 3x Innovation.

     

    Every competitive deck is likely running these cards.  41-card decks are the forseeable future.

    Clamatius said:

    Judgement lottery

     

    aplauso.gif I approve of this phrase being used.

  3. Posted

    darkdeal, would you mind posting your deck if you feel that it's faster and more consistent?  Innovation and We'z Bigga let you play more units early on, whereas replacing them with units will not speed up the deck as you still only have 3 resources available on turn one.  You also mentioned developing your Kingdom, but Orcs don't need more than four resources per turn (although ideally you want to draw about four cards each turn).  I'm confused by your comment that Pillage doesn't work because you win before you need it: Pillage is best played in the first couple of turns.

    If you are going first your best starts (barring crazy hand-emptying madness) are either:

    1. Lobba Crew plus something.  Any Warpstone Excavations go into the Quest zone.

    This allows you to generate four resources on turn two which either means two units or a unit and Pillage, plus you can Lobba Crew to reset your opponent's board even further.

    2. We'z Bigga into a Squiq Herders (Quest) + something. Any Warpstone Excavations go into the Quest zone.

    This start sets up your turn two production and means that you'll be drawing 3 cards on turn two.

     

    If you are going second then you're looking to apply pressure to your opponent straight away.  You want to be making units and attacking with at least four power.  If you have any spare resources then develop your Quest to ensure that you keep drawing into more units.  Thanquol allows you to make a hybrid start if you go second by going to the Kingdom and allowing you to attack for two damage.

    The most important decision you have to make when playing this deck is whether or not you keep your opening hand.  What might be considered a good start for most decks is not for this, so you need to learn to evaluate your hand and see if it will give you the massive early boost that you need.  a good rule of thumb is that if you can't play half your hand on turn one you need to really consider why you want to keep it.

     

  5. Posted

    Dwarves actually do quite well against Boilt Thrower.  They can swarm/blitz quite well and multiple units with toughness forces the opponent to dig for Flames of the Phoenix before being able to try and efficiently kill the Dwarf player.  Add to that Demolition! and in some decks a positive desire to develop zones and you're left with a deck that can stack up quite well.

  6. Posted

    Andwat said:

    I am also not sure about what happens when you move a unit into the Warpstone zone as opposed to playing one into it.  Is it corrupted or not?  As I recall you were corrupting Johannes/Pistoliers when moving them across but I am not certain if that is correct. 

    The unit is entering that zone and so will be corrupted.  A solution if you could find space would be Blessing of Isha, which would also double up as Sniktch hate and protection from things like Seduced by Darkness.  I would imagine that given a real choice the deck wouldn't run it, but it's too much of production loss not to do so.

  8. Posted

    Here is a huge wall of text-based death as to why Warpstone Excavation should be banned:


    What is a broken card?

    The term ‘broken’ is often misused. Many people who describe something as broken mean to say that it’s overpowered. An overpowered card is one that is too good not to use. A broken card is a step beyond overpowered: it breaks the game. This might be that it’s so overpowered that the game revolves around this card, or that the game doesn’t work because the card exists.

    Why is Warpstone Excavation broken?

    Warpstone Excavation is broken because it is likely to prevent accurate card design and creates a huge mismatch in production during the game’s opening turns.

    In general when cards are designed for a CCG the designers have a good idea when they want that card to be available to the player during the game. They give powerful cards high costs to prevent them being played too early and distorting the game. Imagine if Grimgor Ironhide was 1R1L: you’d want to play him in your first turn if you could. To prevent this he was given a high cost (both resource and loyalty) so that the other player would have a chance to develop their board before he arrived.

    How does the design team know what a high cost is? Usually design teams have a good idea because they have carefully calculated what a player can do during their first turn or two. They know that each player starts with 3 resources, 1 loyalty icon and the ability to draw one card each turn. From there they know that if they print several 2R1L1+P* supports and 1R1L1+P units for each race then there’s a good chance that a player will play one of each on their first turn. If these two cards can be played to any zone then a player will start their second turn with 3 loyalty icons and either 5 resources and 1 extra card, 4 resources and 2 extra cards or 3 resources and 3 extra cards. With this information design can decide if a powerful card that they might not want in play before turn three should cost 4,5,6 or more resources.

    What happens if a player gets lucky and can play three copies of a 1R1L1+P unit in their first turn? They will be able to start their second turn with a number loyalty icons and resources or cards that design hadn’t planned for which could allow that player to play powerful cards earlier than design had intended. To avoid this design put limitations on where 1R1+P units can be played (eg Quest Zone only), extra costs (loyalty costs or delays on power) or how many can be played in one turn (Limited). If you check you’ll find that every 1R unit has something that prevents them being played freely to either production zone (Kingdom or Quest).

    Warpstone Excavation breaks these design rules. It doesn’t cost anything, has no limits on where is can be played and you can play as many of them as you want in one turn. This means that players can start their turn with potentially either 8 resources (board, 2R card, 1R card and three Warpstone Excavations), drawing 6 cards or a blend of the two. With such a range of potential turn two starts design can no longer be sure that a card that was costed at 6R and designed to be played mid-game won’t actually start seeing play on turn two. Drawing three Warpstone Excavations is highly unlikely, but one or possibly two is not unreasonable (about a 37% chance of seeing at least one copy before you shuffle your hand in).

    What is design supposed to do now? Their costing structure based on a player’s expected economic curve is compromised. Do they design card X knowing that it might be played earlier than intended and possibly have a damaging effect on the game? Do they print a weakened version of card X in case it does come out early? Do they increase the cost of card X so that it cannot be played early but accept that now it is likely to be played later than intended, possibly rendering it worthless?

    You might feel however that all this is the problem of the design team and not the players. You might feel that design can somehow overcome this issue and trust that all the cards that they release have avoided the above pitfalls. Even if this is the case Warpstone Excavation still causes problems.

    In every card game a player’s economy (resource generation and card draw) are critically important. A Magic or Wow player is unlikely to choose not to play a land/quest each turn, an L5R player will buy gold-producing holdings in their first few turns and AGoT CCG players always used that plot that er, got some resource production on turn one (it’s been a long time since I played that game sorry). Your economy in the early turns of a game is even more important if resource production is non-linear (ie the number of resource-producing card you can play each turn is dependant upon how many resources you can spend rather that a rule that limits you to playing a fixed number each turn). A boost to your economy in the early turns of a game can have a massive effect later on.

    In Warhammer: Invasion you have three resources to spend in your first turn and they will likely yield an extra two resources in your second turn (giving you a total of five resources to spend). A single Warpstone Excavation played in your first turn yields a 50% increase in your resource growth for turn two (you produce an extra three resources rather than two). This might not seem like a lot but when combined with cheap cards it can create a massive disparity between the production curve of a player that is running the card and one that is not.**

    You might still be reading all this and now say “So what? Both players can play this card?” There are three reasons why this is a bad thing™:

    1. Cards that are so good as to be in every deck regardless of their archetype create a stagnate environment. They remove player choice as everyone has to run that card or fall behind.
    2. Because players can’t easily control how many (if any) Warpstone Excavations they have in hand games become lotteries of who can draw the most Warpstone Excavations. Whilst everyone may have an equal chance to draw them in a global sense each game will suffer from that random but powerful swing.
    3. Warpstone Excavation does have a drawback but it only really applies to decks that have to defend***. Therefore decks that don’t need to defend gain an unfair advantage from playing this card.

    There are several ways to fix this card, but it would be far easier to just ban it and release a similar, balanced version at a later date if design still felt that it was needed.

    I realise that you could begin to make the argument that Innovation is broken if Warpstone Excavation is but I don’t agree. I could write an explanation of why, but my fingers are tired.

     

     

     

    *R is the resource cost, L is the loyalty cost and P is the number of power icons. 1R1L1+P would there be 1 resource cost, 1 loyalty cost and has 1 or more power icons.

    **A similar argument applies to card draw.

    ***I’ll save why only some decks need to defend for another day.

  9. Posted

    tearmat said:

     

     

    As Andrew has posted his deck list at the start of this thread and I'm sure that you won't have any issues posting yours Mike so that people can view all top 3 deck lists.

     

     

    I posted my deck in the deck forum, here: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp.  I'm glad that everyone's willing to publish their decklists as it should help inform other players of the environment and maybe let people work out how to beat the archetypes that keep winning.

     

    tearmat said:

    Judgement Lottery indicates that the outcome is all about luck. With the reuslts and consistency the deck returns its more about timing than luck. It does take a couple of turns to set up and against blitz you are bound to take some damage and probably lose a zone in ther process.  Its all about picking the right moment to play out the decks multiple combnations.

      

    What do you do against blitz if you can't manage an early Judgement?  I'm not suggesting that the deck is entirely luck-based, but when we were testing both what we thought was your build (we had it at 50 cards with only two copies of Reiksguard Swordsmen and no  copies of Contested Fortress) and similar Empire decks before the event we found that we were fine if we saw a Will/Judgement early and if not it was usually a frantic dig to get one, hence the lottery comment.  Do you play very aggressively and try to keep pace with blitz decks or do you try to turtle up and whether the storm?  If it's the latter what are you waiting to draw if not Judgement?  I tried a variant with Ulric's Fury and Sigmar's Intervention as a way to slaughter an attacking army if I couldn't find a Judgement but it ended up being too slow to make a difference.

    As I said after the game I really like the Militia/Runefang combo and will be stealing this idea for future use.gui%C3%B1o.gif

  10. Posted

    Wytefang said:

    I'm not sure this is the fastest build (just my opinion, no offense) but it looks pretty nasty, regardless.  Basha's is a slow card, really.  What's the combo you referred to?  I'm wondering if I've missed noticing it?  :(

     

    One other disappointment is that thematically, the Orcs really aren't a fast rushing army at all. They mob up and build their forces with their Waugggghs and such and then attack in huge green waves.  The current Orc abilities somewhat mimic this but a better, more accurately themed solution would be that the Orcs can attack with large numbers (which is one reason why I love the Wolf Rider card as it really enhances this idea) but take a bit to get going (which is the exact opposite of the current situation). 

     

    Wytefang said:

    I'm not sure this is the fastest build (just my opinion, no offense) but it looks pretty nasty, regardless.  Basha's is a slow card, really.  What's the combo you referred to?  I'm wondering if I've missed noticing it?  :(

     

    Andwat was referring to the axe/Rock Lobba combo.  As the Axe doubles all damage dealt to capitals during combat actions taken during combat that deal damage to the capital also have their damage doubled.  The axe means that a timely Rock Lobba will deal four damage to their capital.

    How would you speed up the deck?  We're dropping the Axe and a Seduced for Thanquol but past that we're running out of cheap cards that are efficient.  We've also toyed with adding Clan Rats (who would have a reasonable number of targets) but the only units that we can cut (Followers of Mork and possibly Squig Herders) are making We'z Bigga worth including as we're not willing to run it with only the Clan Moulder Elite as a viable target.

  12. Posted

    The Alliance card issue is one that needs to be sorted.  I think that by the rulebook the name of the card is High Elf/Dwarf, not Alliance.  I shall wait and see however.

    The Alliances are in there to fuel loyalty costs.  There's nothing cheaper support-wise and whilst there is another one or two High Elf buildings they're effectively blank whereas the Alliance reduces the cost of Judgement by one.  We were considering dropping a City Gates however and would add Abandoned Mine if it wasn't so expensive.

    Judgement is also set up by Demolitions, so there're five cards to deal with developments.  If your opponent wants to play around Judgement then it costs them cards from hand without you having to do anything which is very powerful.  Even when they do develop you can usually clear either their Quest or Battlefield.  The problem with playing a few units is that not only is Flames more costly but you then get hit by Lobba Crews, Sniktch, Seduced etc.  I'd rather completely deny my opponent a portion of their effects and gain that virtual card advantage.

    Disdain is good enough to go in the deck, but not so great as to be an auto-include yet.  We would put it in if we could something.  As of now another fog is more important as is another building (on top of the current supports).

  14. Posted

    The Axe is comming out.  It only rarely sees play and we've decided not to add a second and switch Seduced for Chillwind (which would mean that the Axe doesn't cost you any tempo).  The Rock Lobbas are amazing.  They let you attack a second zone in the same turn and for four resources lets you deal four damage before your opponent can place a development (lob a guy during your attack and again during their pahse zero).  It also lets you deal damage in response to your opponent playing a fog, which near the end of the game can be massive.

    I have been planning a control build that uses Offering of Blood, Boar Attack, Rock Lobba etc in combination with the Axe to sleaze multiple zones, but at the moment it's not quick enough to compete with blitz and Dark Elves eat you alive  (as you need a lot of cheap units which die to Vile Sorceress and We Need Your Blood).

  16. Posted

    High Elves

    3x Alliance Empire High Elf
    3x Alliance Dwarf High Elf
    3x Warpstone Excavation
    3x Contested Village
    3x Treasure Vaults
    3x Contested Fortress
    3x Keystone Forge
    3x City Gates
    3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

    3x Master rune of Valaya
    3x Gifts of Aenarion
    3x Asuryan's Cleansing
    3x Judgement of Verena
    3x Demolition!
    3x Innovation
    3x Flames of the Phoenix
    2x Will of the Electors
     

    First of all I'd like to say congratulations to Ben who came eighth with this deck after being given it on the train to the Regional.  He was previously playing a unit-heavy version of the deck and to be able to switch to a build that punishes every mistake you make and do reasonably in such a deformed environment is very impressive.

     

    As soon as I started playing Warhammer: Invasion and saw that units were the core card type of the game I knew that a unitless deck would be amazin if it actually worked as you'd dodge all the anti-unit meta.  I don't think that the deck is quite there yet, but it's very close.  Against anything but blitz you can usually keep the first zone from burning long enough to win comfortably without even having to rely on saving the second.  The deck could do with another fog-like effect (attack denial) or  board reset.  So far the best we can think of is Radiant Gaze, which is weak and triple loyal.  One of the difficulties facing the deck is being able to get enough High Elf symbols out early so that you aren't overpaying for tactics in key turns.

  17. Posted

    Orcs

    3x Lobba Crew
    3x Crooked Teeth Goblins
    3x Goblin Spider Riders
    3x Followers of Mork
    3x Snotling Pump Wagon
    3x Clan Moulder Elite
    3x Veteran Sellswords
    3x Squig Herders

    3x Contested Village
    3x Warpstone Excavation
    3x Choppa
    2x Rock Lobba
    1x Basha's Bloodaxe

    3x Innovation
    3x We's Bigga
    2x Waaagh!
    3x Seduced by Chaos
    3x Pillage


     

    agg's descption of the deck can be found here: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp, but I thought that as well as post the deck to the deck forum I'd offer a few thoughts.

    We feel that this is the fastest deck that has been shown anywhere (although we do think that a couple of changes will make it even faster).  We have sacrificed any sort of board control for speed, so it may not be the best possible Orc deck, but your opponent must see their answers very quickly otherwise you'll steamroll them.  The economy is incredibly efficient (needing only four resources per turn) and there are only two cards in the deck that cost more than two resources.  The Orc cost-to-power ratio is frankly stupid at the moment and there are only six guys that have a potential ratio of worse than 1:1.

    The only non-blitz cards are Lobba Crew and Pillage but these fulfill the same function.  They should be used early to try and force your opponent to keep replaying their first turn.  You have more cheap cards than him and are far morely likely to come off better if the first three turns of the game are resets.  You might win on turn five rather than turn three, but if your opponent is still trying to play what they consider to be their standard turn two cards then the effect is the same.

    Like all Orc decks the potential for a ridiculous turn of playing your entire opening hand is possible and at the moment we can't see any way of beating an Orc deck that can manage that (plus they gain 50 points).  This is why the deck was designed.  It doesn't matter what your opponent's tricks are, if they can't get to to turn four who cares?  The irony is that apart from Pillage and Lobba crew the Orc cards aren't individually that overpowered.  The problem is that the deck can play a critical mass of cards that are efficient which creates an overall effect of a blitz dck that is just too fast.  The Orc design themes should not be 'burn two zones' and 'play efficient cards'.

     

     

  18. Posted

    Dark Elves

    3x Shades
    3x Vile Sorceress
    3x Walking Sacrifice
    3x Clan Rats
    3x Gutter Runners
    3x Clan Moulder Elite
    3x Deathmaster Sniktch
    3x Greyseer Thanquol
    2x Rat Ogres

    3x Har Garneth
    3x Contested Village
    3x Warpstone Excavation

    3x Chillwind
    3x Caught the Scent
    3x Innovation
    3x Hate
    3x We Need Your Blood

     

    This is what I feel to be the best version of the standard Dark Elf/Skaven build.  The economy is incredibly efficient (it requires only four resources a turn) due to the Skaven and cheap Dark Elf units and it has a decent about of switch potential.  It is not as fast as Orc Blitz that gets a good start but nonetheless it can burn two zones in three attack phases if you opening hand suggests a blitz strategy.  The reason that I played this over Orcs is that flexibility.  You can chose between blitzing and board control which gives you more of a chance against Orcs whilst being able to exploit the vulnerability of Order decks to strong aggro builds.

    Apart from the broken cards in the deck (the three Skaven and Warpstone Excavation) Hate has proved to be game-winning.  Being able limit or completely cancel your opponent's first turn is such a powerful (and negative) effect, which combined with a cheap and efficient economy can give you the equivalent of half or a full turn of tempo.

  19. Posted

    dormouse said:

    You'll have some blow outs where the first player manages to win on their third battlefield phase (5 rounds) and some grinders where the second player wins on their 5th turn (10 rounds).

     

    If I get time today I'll explain why Warpstone Excavation is broken in the purest sense (it inhibits accurate card design) but for now I'd request that you stop using such a disingenuous and misleading term as "5 rounds".  Each player has their turn and cannot attack outside of that turn.  The passing of your opponent's battlefield pahse does not matter when counting how many battlefield phases it took you to burn two of your opponent's zones.  If you burn both zones by the end of your third battlefield phase it has taken you three turns, not 'five rounds'.  Using a larger number that has no bearing on the game's mechanics suggests that you want games to appear longer than they actually are.  Orc blitz can regularly win on turn 3 and if going second can potentially win on turn 2 (although this doesn't mean that going second speeds the deck up, merely that you aren't allowed to attack on turn one if you go first).  Skaven can win on turn three as well. 

    The game is too fast.  You might not feel that this is a problem but I think that it's highly unlikely that the game was intentionally designed with such a short length in mind.  Neither of us can prove our opinion of designer intent but please don't try distort the time it takes a good blitz deck to win with meaningless counts of arbitrary 'rounds' (intentional or not).

  20. Posted

    Clamatius said:

    I'm not sure that your assertion that the Bolt Thrower deck shouldn't win is correct. We have a Thrower deck that puts up very good numbers against Skaven and non-rush decks are pretty much a bye.

    We were discussing this before and after Sheffield.  Bolt Thrower is a tier one deck, but unfortunately Orc blitz and Dark Elf/Skaven are so broken that they have created a teir 0 which I think masks the power of the High Elf build.

  21. Posted

    Scoop, tier etc are fairly common terms.  I don't play Magic and instead learnt the terms when playing L5R and Raw Deal.  Trying to force a playerbase to adopt new slang for which there are already existing terms strikes me as being very stubborn.  When agg and I are building decks I'll use the term 'Fog' when referring to a damage-prevention card even though I had no idea why that word was being used until the etymology was explained to me.

    I think that the environment and its problems should be well-understood by now.  The only benefit of the four reports from Sheffield are that they show the problems again, but in a field that was more than just a dozen people and in a field with a range of different playgroups*, meaning that the results have more weight to them.

     

    *Getting players from Newcastle to Birmingham means that you have a huge mix of playgroup styles, far more than the equivalent distances in America.

     

  22. Posted

    We were looking forward to the Regional for a while, moreso because we couldn't make the Aldershot event.  We'd been doing a lot of testing to see if there was a deck that could go 50-50 with the Orcs and had to conclude that there wasn't.  Other decks could beat the Orcs, but not with any great consistency, even by Dark Elf discard deck that I had wanted to play as soon as Shades were previewed.  We finally decided to just play Orcs as we feel that we had the fastest deck in the environment and so any lack of control elements was compensated for by raw speed.  Well, that was the plan until Friday night.  I'd been tinkering with by Dark Elf deck and thought that I'd rather have a few tricks available to me in case things went wrong.  With a last-minute adjustment (decks are always better if they're adjusted on the morning of the event) I committed to the Elves.  In the end four of us headed down: Me playing Dark Elves, Alex playing Orcs, Jacky playing Orcs and Ben playing High Elves.  During the train journey we managed to convince Ben that my unit-less High Elf deck was better than his deck so he switched.  With every deck we had either designed or co-designed by me I was going to get a lot of feedback on my card choices which was one of the reasons for going (no matter how good you think you are a small play group can prove to be degenerate).

    There were 22 players that turned up, the largest attendance so far.  Having to win six rounds of Swiss to finish first was daunting, but we were hoping for at least some top four finishes.

     

    Round 1: Ben Clapperton (Orcs)

    I have never met Ben but we both post on a UK forum and for some reason I think that he has long hair.  After thoroughly confusing him by mentioning this we get down to business.  He's playing Orc blitz with Troll Vomit which may or may not be problematic.  All I care about when I play Orcs is whehter or not they have a bonkers opening hand. 

    Game one: We both burn one zone but I establish a better board position.  He plays Troll Vomit but in my turn I can play two Clan Moulder Elite which means that his second zone burns.

    Game two: This is essentially a repeat of the first game. It's close but I think that I play Thanquol after the Troll Vomit this time.

    1-0

    MVP: Cheap Skaven units.

     

    Round 2: ??? (Orc)

    Game one: He wins the die roll but lets me go first.  My turn one is a Walking Sacrifice, a Vile Sorceress and a Contested Village.  In his turn one I play two Hate.  He can't come back from such a loss of tempo and board position.

    Game two: His turn one is a Spider Riders.  His turn two is two more Spider Riders and a Clan Moulder Elite off We'ez Bigga.  I scoop.

    Game three: This is quite close until I get either two Vile Sorceress or Sniktch (I forget which).  I hose his hand a board into oblivion.

    2-0

    MVP: Vile Sorceress.

     

    Round 3: Ben Blackwell (High Elves)

    I don't like playing mates early in events as it's bound to knock one of us out of the top four.  It will be even worse if I lose to my own deck.

    Game one: I roll him so quickly it's ridiculous.  A combination of Hate and multiple scouts means that he never really gets going.

    Game two: I get a poor start and he gets set up quickly.  Gifts of Aenarion+ Repeater Bolt Thrower cripples my board and I scoop.

    Game three: It's closer than either of the other two games but he is never able to disrupt my tempo long enough to get set up.  And early Thanquol was key.

    3-0

    MVP: Thanquol or Hate.

     

    Round 4: Mark Donnelly (Empire)

    Apparently this is the guy that won the Aldershot Regional but the only thing I care about is whether he can win the Judgement lottery.

    Game one:  He goes first and starts well  (Peasant Militia and Runefang) but I play Shades in my turn one and two and he doesn't have the card draw to stall me.  I finish off by calling in the Skaven heavy mob.

    Game two.  He has a great start (including Peasant Militia and Runefang)He wins the Judgement lottery early.  I scoop.

    Game three.  He gets the Militia/Runefang combo again and kills an early Thanquol with a Zealot Hunter.  It's looking grim but we both stall slightly and then he makes a big play mistake by playing a Reiksguard Swordsmen which are then sent back to his hand in my turn, costing him valuable resources.  I manage to survive three Judgements during the game and eventually pip him to the second zone via a timely application of Skaven facebeating.

    4-0

    MVP: Shades or Thanquol.

     

    Round 5: Alex Marsden (Orcs)

    Another mate and the deck we spent a long time designing.  I know that this is going to be down to who has the better draw as we've played variations of this game so many times.

    Game one: I have to go second but a turn one Hate followed by two Shades (Innovation) cripples his hand and he can't get established.

    Game two:  He gets a bonkers draw.  Experience has taught me that it's effectively impossible for me to win.  Lots of guys on his turn one and I think that we wins on his turn three.

    Game three: I go first playing a Vile Sorceress and a Contested Village knowing that without a Walking Sacrifice I'm stuffed.  He playes a Lobba Crew and Pillage (Innovation).  I play Thanquol on my turn.  He plays a second Lobba Crew.  I'm about to scoop when I draw a second Thanquol.  He stays on the board and in my next turn I play Sniktch.   This lets me start to clear his board and he runs out of steam.  I regain tempo and play lots of guys and crush zones.

    4-0

    MVP: Shades or Thanquol

     

    Round 6: Andrew Watson (Dark Elves)

    This is essentially a mirror match made worse by the build countering itself  (Dark Elf/Slaven is one of the best ways to beat Skaven decks).  It was going to come down to luck of the draw but I'd like to think that a few of my deck choices gave me an advantage (Walking Sacrifice for the card draw and Caught the Scent to hit units bounced by Har Garneth).

    Game one: My Shades eat his hand and he can't get set up before the Skaven heavy mob arrive.

    Game two: His Vile Sorceress trumps my hand of Shades and some timely Hates mean that he has to great a board position.

    Game three:  This is very close but I see Sniktch first and make him discard his (and his Thanquol) with a Caught the Scent.  He's one point short of burning my second zone before the Sniktch/Rat Ogre slaughterfest kicks off and I clear his board and burn his second zone.

     

    A bit of luck has seen me go 6-0 (anyone who goes undefeated in the Swiss has had a bit of luck on their side).  Alex comes in fourth, Ben in eighth and Jacky thirteenth (showing that a new player may do well with Orcs but those little play mistakes make all the difference).  I'm glad the that the High Elf deck was reasonable but the overall results haven't changed our perception.  The environment is deformed, blitz is far too good and Warpstone Excavation is broken (not just overpowered but it actually damages card design).  I could have just written MVP: Warpstone Excavation in every round that I saw it.

     

    Thanks to Jim for running the event and decklists will be forthcoming (maybe tomorrow or Monday).

     

     

  24. Posted

    Martin_fr said:

    I don't remember Chaos has many 1 power / 2 hp units in the 2-cost range... Nurglings are a must-have, but then, one has little choice but to use 1/1 (Slaanesh Adorators, Savage Gors) in this cost range. At least, that's why I'm including those in my Chaos Decks.

    I'd consider playing them if they weren't double-loyal.  That said, the cheap Chaos units are so uninspiring that that's not saying much.

  25. Posted

    dormouse said:

     

     I promise you two things, removing WE will have little noticeable impact on the Rush decks win ratios. They may allow them to rush easier or achieve victory a turn earlier sometimes, but you'll discover that a single free hammer to draw or resources will not make a huge difference. If you don't believe me try it. This card is not what makes rush dominant, it isn't even what makes rush consistent, it is what makes rush easy.

     

    You're willing to concede that Warpstone Excavation can directly accelerate certain builds by one full turn and yet that's not a problem?  At the moment the first two turns are the most important ones in the game and cards like Warpstone Excavation create too great a gulf between development potentials.  The first game or two I played I though a decent turn one was playing a single 2/3 cost support or unit.  After I saw Contested VIllage, Huntsmen etc a good turn one was a two-cost card and a one-cost card, but there would be first turns when you can only play that one card.  The average first turn of an Orc blitz is playing 3-4 cards, which is effectively an extra turn of production.  A good turn one means that you've played 5-6 or more cards.  This is too great a disparity when the Orc deck can draw multiple cards in their next turn to replenish their hand and take advantage of either their production advantage or their cheap units.  Why do you think that so many decks are running Innovation?  That extra point of resource on turn one is such a huge bonus.  I use Orcs as an extreme example but the logic applies to all the blitz builds Destruction has.

     

    Playing a blitz deck should mean sacrificing economic stability to push an early aggro strategy (which disrupts decks that play a slower game) and should be risky.  Cards that mitigate the risk by giving you the ability to progress your economic development for free are bad; they distort the environment and enable blitz to be a less-risky strategy.  Blitz won't disappear if Warptone Excavation was errata'd or banned  as it's not the only problematic card, but it's a card that needs to be changed to allow the game to develop.

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