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  1. Coincidentally I just watched this: http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx►x=dnd/4ll/20120416 Skip to 43:20. Supporting so many game lines has always been a bad thing, and it was the death of TSR, the gaming giant that started it all. Even Wizards of the Coast recognise the lesson are are seeking to fix the publishing model in the way already pointed out so many times over. This is no longer a hobby anywhere near its peak, and as much as fans of the material may hate to admit it to themselves, this is a business that has a bottom line and targets to hit. The current method is bad for FFG and bad for us as customers. Take a rational look at what is happening and has happened across the industry since 1974 and take a look at the trends that have affected RPG''s such as CCG''s, the new rise of board games, DVD, computer / console games etc. Each one is vying for our leisure time and we all have a limited amount of time. Where we spend money for that time is key. Making people choose which game line to play and then supporting five different lines rather than having a single game line with different facets is the worst choice in a world of financial squeeze, limited consumer time and competition that doesn''t even include other RPG''s - the competition is actually how we spend our leisure time and THEN which RPG we choose to play. This isn''t a clear cut "I''ll buy it" or "don''t buy it you''re a hater" debate - it''s a serious issue that affects a product line (and it is exactly that - make no mistake, it''s a product line with a bottom line return) that many people have enjoyed for a very long time. It should be talked about, looked at, dissected and openly discussed. Being an ostrich with a head in the ground while your own products eat your income, the competition forges ahead and releases products that fix the problems / model you''re suffering from and ignoring the changing climate and attitudes towards where leisure money is being spent is an act of wilful ignorance. I have no doubt a second edition is coming, I can''t see either GW or FFG maintaining this for even another 12 months. For my sins I restructure businesses for a living. Agree with me or not, brute economic force will dictate the outcome, not my opinion or anyone else''s.
  2. H.B.M.C. said: Thebigjul said: I've no hate for FFG or the Imperial guard but keeping in mind we are talking about business here I think that the way FFG publish the books is more or less a bad joke. Did you need to buy once more the core rule book from Warhammer 40K TT each time you want to make an other army, no, you buy it once then you pay for codex. I think that it would have been better and more honest for FFG to publish a main rules book for Warhammer 40k universe and then to put step by step more detail by adding "codex". Then we'd have people complaining that they have to buy two books before they can even play the game. BYE Do you see that complaint in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40K war-game lines? No. Do you see it with NWoD? No. The system was widely praised for the amalgamation of rules that allowed all elements of the game to be pulled together, not burnt for having a core book and then the setting / template book of choice. These arguments are fallacies and prejudicial when history elsewhere in the industry indicates the opposite is true. And one more lesson from history: TSR struggled because it competed with itself. There was an element to them that they existed in a vacuum, yet still had the largest player base in RPG history. Instead of focusing on this, they released to many settings and to many supplements for their lines, pumping up productions costs in writing time, print, distribution and storage for books that were all going to the same audience yet had to make choices as to what they were going to buy. If the audience (the 40K audience) is going to buy, why release so many products and push your overheads up for what will essentially be a similar return? Cannibalising your own customer base is the first step of wandering off of the mark, and there's no way that at five game releases in FFG aren't doing this by now. White Wolf: To many books, to many game lines, so many settings in the same vacuum. Company on its knees. What do I know? I'm just a Grognard that was there at the beginning and watched TSR, ICE, GDW, SPI, Task Force Games, Gamelords, Pacesetter, West End Games, Creations Unlimited, Hogshead Publishing, Phage Press, Last Unicorn Games, Holistic Design, Imperium Games, Guardians of Order, Green Knight Publishing, New Infinities Productions and more go out of business over the years. Instead of taking these comments as 'Don't buy it then' or 'You haven't seen it yet' or 'Hating' or 'FFG bashing' these are severe lessons from history that are repeating themselves. I love FFG products, but I know when I see bad business practice and bad business practice is to OUR DETRIMENT IN THE FUTURE if bad things like customer base cannibalisation and everything else that's been mentioned in multiple other posts begin happening. This is my last word on this, the topic has become tiresome to me. Fanboys please carry on. FFG, you know what's written here has happened before multiple times and it's NEVER worked in the history of RPG's. FFG is lucky in that it has other lines and board games aside from this part of its business. It's their cash-flow leakage, not mine, but I care enough to point it out - that's not a negative thing, it's a constructive and positive thing, but I'm sure I'll be contradicted on that point.
  3. The "don't buy it then" argument is a good one. So I won't buy it. And FFG lose money because of customer discontent, and I'm not the only one saying they're voting with their wallets. And when customers start voting with their wallets there is a problem that needs looking at. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one guys. I'm sure the writers have put in the passion and commitment such a setting and role deserves, this is no slight on them at all, but I'm not buying the rules for a fifth time.
  4. DM Variyn said: Bassemandrh said: You're* a hater. And no. Just because someone may have some problems or concerns about this product they do not become haters by any stretch. Lol! Attacking a person's spelling, really? Did you need an ego boost or did you just not have a good response? QQing about a company making products is hating. Fantasy Flight isn't bending your arm behind your back to buy it, so why be upset they are making more material? They have attached information that allows all books to work with each other. All wish to make is RPGs that are unique for different point of Warhammer 40k and after purchasing just one a group can play the game. Thus far the "problems or concerns" have had no substance. The "problems or concerns have had no substance." Each rules set is 400 pages per book. 5 books at 400 pages is a total of 2000 pages. Much of that 2000 pages is reprinted material from previous books and nothing more - some new fluff for the new element is in there, but not $60 / £40 worth. Pointing this out is NOT hating. If Wizards of the Coast published Dragonlance like this they'd be torn down as money grabbers. Let's say they did this: Book 1: play as a Solamnic knight in Solamnia. Classes are knight, archer, cavalry, armourer, priest (Solamnic), etc Book 2: play in Qualinesti. Play an elven knight, archer, cavalry, armourer, preist (Qualinesti), etc Book 3: play in Silvanesti. Play a slightly different elven knight, cavalry, archer, armourer, preist.... They would be dragged through the mud. This is what has been happening with the 40K universe. The 'classes' between each 40K line are often just parallels between each book, each 'culture' is what is unique to it - all that needs publishing is the new setting, how the new character types fit in, and how to make it work. The rules don't need to be reprinted five times over. 40K is the third best selling system for core rule books - it's hardly a surprise when there's four of them and now five. Even then, this figure is skewed: if a single 40K line is taken in isolation, is that one book the 3rd biggest seller? Doubtful. No one is hating the idea of this setting or character type, but to she'll out the money again for so much needless copying and pasting? The accusation of hating is very silly, many people have made valid points and to dismiss them outright in such a juvenile way doesn't help anyone.
  5. I will add that I am sold on the idea of playing as an imperial guardsman - it just doesn't need another 400 pages, the amount of reprinting of previous materials from other books and another investment of $60 / £40.
  6. I don't think I've read many comments that would suggest anyone would hate to play a game about the Imperial Guard - more that the fluff will be copied and pasted across (again), that the core rules will be pasted across (again) and that in order to play and get into this element of the setting some of us will have had to have bought this game system for a fifth time over. No one is knocking the writers, the effort or the Imperial Guard content, just the business model that at 400 pages per book, the core rule sets now cover 2000 pages over five books. Saying that this takes the piss out of the buying customers doesn't make anyone a hater of the system or the setting, there's a clear and separate set of issues going on.
  7. I finally defeated Cthulhu last night by cutting back to three investigators with decent abilities like Ashcan Pete and Jenny Barnes. I had to trade in all of the trophies and then get two amulets, but I did it on first run with Pete by stocking him up on clue tokens before sending him into R'lyeh. It took more attempts than I had patience for, and I swear there's a cheat mechanism on the glyphs sometimes, but got there in the end!!!!!
  8. LegendofOld said: beowulf101 said: Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade are enough. Black Crusade should have been the end of the 40K line and the existing products expanded and built on. All things considered, four RPG games in the same setting already pushes the boundary. Five? I'm not buying. The idea that throwing out content and sooner or later something will be a success is a real turn off. If anything, build what's already out and then learn the lessons of this set of mechanics and let's move on to 40K second edition - an edition that hopefully means the release of one core book, the unification of the disparate Psi powers and releases additional material for that one book. In short, there's no need for what's happening, and I personally am rather angry with the release of another rulebook. I don't want a flame war with anyone on here, this is my own personal sentiment. There are better ways of doing things, especially when the books cost so much - enough already. Since most of the commentary in here merely echos this idea or is a fig leaf masking (or attempting to justify) this idea, I'm going to quote this and go on to my point. This just boils down to opinion. I'm guessing that 'Only War' is going to be my favorite release to date, right after Rogue Trader. Where on the other hand, I have about as much interest in previous titles like Black Crusade or an alternate release such as 'Eldar-The Bunch of Aloof Xeno Bastards' or 'Mechanicus- Now I Can Do My Day Job on the Weekends,' as I do in My Little Pony- Every Little Girl's Dreams Come True. That does't invalidate your love of the Eldar. I'm glad you love the Eldar (or Your Day Job - the RPG, or whatever). Or that you prefer the already existing game lines and want to see more work for those. More power to you. But I want you, and all the other folks like you to recognize that JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT EXCITED ABOUT ONLY WAR DOESN'T MEAN ITS FILLED WITH SUCK AND DUMB. I almost had a nerdgasm when I saw the post on the ffg front page. You are not the only person in the universe. Nor does the universe revolve around you. Just because Only War is at the very bottom of your list doesn't mean that it's not at the top of somebody else's. I don't understand why people feel it necisary to **** on somebody else's parade. If you don't want a product? That's fine. But let the rest of us enjoy it in peace. I'm not even going to talk about the rampant an unfair assumptions already being made about what the game will and will not be. Its not even out yet. And I don't want to give myself an aneurysm of anger. I agree completely, it is opinion. I don't think you wrote this specifically at myself as I didn't mention Eldar or that the book would be full of Suck and Dumb etc. I'd very much like to see the Eldar expanded upon as a supplement and the Mechanicus as well. Some really good thoughts have come out of this thread from several camps of thought. The bottom line of the conversations is that everyone cares about the 40K setting and how it's presented and put together for purchase. It's not a criticism of the work that's gone into the book or the effort, but it is a criticism of the way the game is being released and I think it's a valid one. Not all criticism is bad, I think many of the things that have been said have needed to be said. We may all agree and disagree, but a company becomes better for taking ideas on board or not - and unless we ALL say what our thoughts are FFG can't do that, so kudos to everyone who's taken part in this discussion.
  9. I've defeated Yig and Azathoth... But Cthulhu, no. I've managed to unlock the location of R'lyeh, but getting the amulets happens so slowly that everyone dies or goes insane!
  10. Tequila said: borithan said: 2) Seeing as there are rumours that FFG is actually trying to buy out GW (and it is by far the most successful of their RPG lines), I don't see them giving up on the license any time soon (unless GW is demands far too much for it), and GW will want to continue the deal as pretty much their entire profit at the moment is the licence fees from FFG and Relic. So You are basically saying that GW is falsifying financial reports and their press statements about their financial situation are a lie? http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf Could you give us some more information on that or reveal the source of your wisdom? Just laughing to myself, good link post! Propaganda vs what's really happening in a company are not the same thing, but there are so many Internet trolls out there that will argue they're right and you / the facts / the report must be wrong.,., Gave my breakfast a smiling start
  11. macd21 said: Macd21 said: I'd advise you to do the same. Again: You clearly have no idea what's been going on at CCP. You have got to be joking You're one of those "I have to have the last word, even if I know I've been caught bullsh*tting on an Internet forum to a complete stranger in front of the whole world" Internet trolls aren't you? Do carry on, you're amusing me and probably a few others too. If you've got any more *snorts*, please wipe your nose afterwards, you're making a mess of the thread.
  12. I've just downloaded it and bought 'The Call of Cthulhu' expansion in the app as well. Just about to play my first game, I've been looking forward to this update - what does everyone think of it?! Bring on the game!
  13. Saldre said: You said exactly what I wanted to say, but said it so well and so nicely, whereas I've been rambling for dozens and dozens of posts. Ha, ha, thank you I love the 40K setting and I've been playing in it since the original release of Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader back in the late 80's. I had that book since the day it was released in hardback and I still have the cut out paper counters that represented the space marines and the orks It's fantastic, but of late I think a distanced, objective view should lead to the next step with the 40K rulesets, but maybe Games Workshop won't allow the redevelopment of the mechanics in the agreement? There may be obstacles we don't know about to a second edtion, and if there are obstacles they're causing issues for the current edition of the ruleset(s). The fluff in each book so far has been second to none, but the rules are spread out over so many rulebooks and suppliments it's hard to remember where they might be sometimes. To be honest, I can't remember all of the rules across all of the books, my brain can't hold it all in and I need to be able to refer to the source. It has to be put in one place - a template that the setting / character expansions can sit on. Doing it that way means that the players can use the same mechanics across their Space Marine game and their Dark Heresy game etc with fewer translation issues. Ease of play will bring in more players - who would want to be a new GM in the 40K universe now? If I were new to it I'd look at all of those books and panic! If I could pick up the book I know to start with and find out about the setting I can then choose the suppliments I want to run thereafter. A new edition solves a lot of problems, but can it happen? Over to FFG's and GW....
  14. People are very loyal to the 40K universe and they enjoy it. There are a number of collectors on this forum (myself included, my collection is here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc1XA83O8es Warhammer 40K and Fantasy Roleplay kick in around 10 mins, 40K Roleplay at 13:40 or so) who buy because it's another very attractively packaged 40K product. It's nice to own and to read, the books are full colour, good binding and high quality. We buy because we're loyal, we like the setting, we like the game mechanics and we have a good time with it. The problems are: Most game systems support several settings. BRP, D&D etc all have multiple settings that are released with mechanics that setting in addition to the core rules. The 40K line reverses this and we have five game systems in just one setting. To buy the new setting / fluff means buying the rules again. Saying 'you don't have to buy it' is a cop out. To get into the setting the buyer has to part with money to purchase the rules again just to get hold of the new mechanics and fluff that could be in a suppliment. Fantasy Flight is competing with itself, just as TSR did before its demise due to mismanagement and their hefty returns bill sank them. This is just to many product lines in one setting, and it will cannibalise its own market - there are lessons in other companies, one already mentioned. I feel that this is a deliberate 'they'll all buy it anyway' play on the collectors and players because it's a demonstrably loyal customer base. Anyone who watches the video link will see I have around $1,500 of 40K sat on my shelf, but at this point I'd be happy to buy it again as a second edition because the mechanics in each system don't translate well to each other, and that's a real shame. They've already been mentioned in this thread, but White Wolf had a similar problem with the Old World of Darkness and they did the right thing by having a single core book and then let the players choose the setting they wanted to play in without buying the rules so many times over. It may not have met with success with them in the way the Old World of Darkness was a success, but that's not to say that FFG won't succeed. In short: New edition of unified rules needed, followed by core books for different aspects of the game that use the new edition as the engine. One bestiary, one armaments, one ships and one vehicles book for the whole line. Release splats for chapters, chaos, heretics, radicals and even go so far as to do Print on Demand if that's what's needed. This is a luxury product line in the RPG world, and that doens't have to be sacrificed. FFG we love you and we love 40K, but this isn't a model of business that keeps us coming back for more when we can't afford to keep coming back for more! I own 30 FFG games or thereabouts and I'm a fanboy of the company as a whole, but this is one game I'm not going to buy for all of the above reasons
  15. macd21 said: macd21 said: You have absolutely no idea what's actually happening over at CCP, do you? White Wolf is the section of the company that is doing well. Yes, they let go most of their staff - and then hired them back again as freelancers. Yes, they changed their direction in order to survive - the entire industry is trying to adapt to the shrinking market. WW have made the changes necessary and are now in a better position than almost any RPG company on the market. They've got a very strong release schedule - better than FFG's - and far lower costs. As for FFG's publishing strategy, it's simply better for them than the one you're suggesting. A supplement treadmill + new edition isn't a viable strategy for FFG in today's market, instead they are using the supplement treadmill + new game strategy. Eventually it will cease to yield dividends (rulebook fatigue) but it lasts longer than the former plan. As plenty have already pointed out in this thread not enough people would be interested in a new edition yet. They have to delay the need for one for as long as possible. I have a very good idea. You obviously haven't looked at the CCP or White Wolf reports I mentioned. I can't find a single report that says White Wolf should be loaned any more than $2,500. What does this tell you? Why do you think they are doing kickstarters to fund new product? White Wolf are no longer the powerhouse they were and are in survival mode. Remember TSR? You're original *snort* post was frankly rude and confrontationally worded and this is off topic. I'm quite happy to continue this offline from this forum, but before you write a single word to me get off your fanboy pedastel and look at reality.
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