macd21 said: Sinister said: Really? WotC protects their IP as much as GW? So this is why if you are a member of DDI you can download and use any piece of art? Their ENTIRE art gallery is available for use and download from their website.. Exactly. You can download their entire art gallery from their website. You subscribe to DDI and gain access to their IP - they distribute their IP on their terms. Legally this counts as protecting their IP - they've given you permission to use it. They come down hard on anyone who crosses the line. In fact they are probably the most aggressive RPG company when it comes to protecting their IP - GW usually just sends out C&D letters, but I'm not sure they've ever taken anyone to court over it (all bark, no bite). FFG sent C&D letters to people who were putting up GW IP without permission online. To fail to act would have left GW's control over their IP vulnerable. They lost control of their IP, they stop producing WH40k products and we end up with no game. The fansite guidelines should let fans produce new material without threatening GW's IP. Yeah, so you agree that wotc is doing something for their fans while GW is fighting fans. There's a better option. Follow WotC's lead.

I have an interesting thought on this that could open up some varience. What if all the monsters were leved 1-4 and the only difference between a level 4 monster and a level 1 is that the level 4 gets 4 passive purple to hit? The level 3 gets 3 passive purple when attempting to hit and so on. And the heroes are a level = to their rank. So when the hit rank 2 they get 2 purple passive defense, rank 3, 3 purple, and so on. I think it allows for making 4 different kinds of each monster Mook Standard Veteran Elite And it's just as uping the purple dice for each version to hit them, while the PCs get better defense over ranks.

I have an interesting thought on this that could open up some varience. What if all the monsters were leved 1-4 and the only difference between a level 4 monster and a level 1 is that the level 4 gets 4 passive purple to hit? And the heroes are a level = to their rank. So when the hit rank 2 they get 2 purple passive defense, rank 3, 3 purple, and so on. Then, when designing adventures, the GM chooses what level of each monster to use. Realizing of course that a level 4 to a rank 1 party is overkill and a level 1 to a rank 4 party is fodder, the GM has several options for encounter building that leads to different "power levels" of each kind of monster. I didn't mean to hijack your line of though gallows. I think I'll post this on it's own thread.

macd21 said: As for WotC protecting their IP and copyright - they do it all the time. I'm surprised how much I'm seeing WotC been used here as an example of a company that is free with its IP - it's not. They have, of course, released the OGL and GSL, but they very carefully monitor the use of both and they protect their IP with a vengeance. You couldn't put up a free websupplement, for example, that contained artwork from WotC books. Hasbro lawyers would have a C&D letter in your mailbox by the end of the week. And they are right to do so - because if they don't, they lose their artwork. That said, obviously fan-material can be beneficial to the game. Fan-material that threatens the company is not. FFG have stated that they are going to release some more info on how you can do so in a way that doesn't threaten their licence with GW. How about we wait and see what happens? Really? WotC protects their IP as much as GW? So this is why if you are a member of DDI you can download and use any piece of art? Their ENTIRE art gallery is available for use and download from their website.. I don't see GW doing that. I agree that if you made a fan made piece of work and used all wotc art and posted it on RPGdrivethru.com you are probably going to raise eyebrows but I can tell you right now, using generic art in a fan made dnd power card won't bring down the hasbro lawyers upon you, they just understand that it helps them, instead of hurting them, otherwise that gallery would not be available. GW spends more time, money, and resources policing their own art, than creating new art. Now, I admit that Magic art is an entirely different beast. That's because there's rengage programs cutting into profits, and the art becomes more than just art, it's the IP representing the card that some people are making illegal copies of. But as I stated before there's a BIG difference between making fan made material and reproducing the exact same content in order to get around people having to own the original content.

Shadowspawn said: As to the original topic, it really is hard to beat the value of DDI to a Dungeons and Dragons Game Master. Between the easy access of the Compendium, the character builder and the Adventure Tools, a DM can help players generate characters in a fast an efficient way as well as turn out stat-blocks for enemies and NPCs with little or no effort other than needing a general idea of what you want to create. In my opinion, WotC made a very smart move in focusing on having an electronic tool for players. In this day and age it is vital to have online tools that can help time-labored game masters create material for their games. I'm not saying an online subscription service identical to WotC's DDI is needed, but some form of company to player support other than previews would help out WFRP3 immensely, especially in the first year while we game masters are needing guidance in adventure and challenge design. If FFG could offer a little more fan support (apart from previews and PDFs that speculate on future releases) WFRP3 could only benefit. This support could simply be an NPC a week that has a some exciting abilities.... or a guide on creating balanced powers for your NPCs. There are many options open to them. Shadow I couldn't agree more. DDI is a great tool.

Boggle, Sorry but your numbers are wrong. Millions not million. There are way more people that play than 100,000 right now. 60 minutes in 1985 citied 3 million players. In the years after the release of 3.0 they gained even more. Wikipedia notes sales of 1 billion and over 20 million people that have played DnD since it's creation. Various sources note the number of players in 2007 as 6 to 7 million. 4th editions sales are being vastly underated by fans on the internet mad because WotC didn't continue with 3x. They seem to be citing the fact that 4E isn't a popular as 3x, which is true, since no other rpg sold as well in history as 3x. I should also note that I know from distributors that the core rulebook has sold out three times since it's release.

boggle said: I have got to say this and say this loud "this is the best system ever" I have played ever system out there and this is bar none the very best. The most exciting thing is this is just the start. The mechanics empower you as a story teller i love the fact you role the dice open we have for ages but in this system it creates story... Do you agree is it your favorite or are you unhappy and why. In my 20+ years of roleplaying I keep asking myself these questions in every one of my warhammer sessions. I've played tons of systems, but this one brings constant enjoyment everytime I play. It seems to hit just the right spot in what I wanted in an RPG. The only thing that's detracted from it is the sillyness of the removal of fan made content.

Lyinar said: EDIT: Sinister, WotC and White Wolf were both US companies. TSR was a US company. Hasbro is a US company. White Wolf got bought by an Icelandic company, so the laws get a bit weird there, but I'm pretty sure CCP still has them using US copyrights. US copyright law is a hell of a lot less restrictive than what Games Workshop faces. thanks for sharing your information. I think it's fair and informative to know that British laws are harsher than american laws. Still if that's the case maybe they should have a warning on the box that says "no fan made content" www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/01/08/32643#comments rpg.geekdo.com/thread/468517/gw-cease-and-desist-letters There's a good conversation there as well.

alp said: I definately do not think there should be any grievance with FFG, or GW for that matter, and we should wait for their guidelines and abide by them - however painful that may be. Again I can't think of another game company that's more obsessed with it's IP than GW. WotC services millions of players. They make all their art available for use. Most all rpg companies do this. I can see a having a grievance with them. Law is certainly a factor but so is standards and practices, which aren't in keeping with the general standard and practices within the hobby.

willmanx said: In my case, I reinvested all the time won on describing and roleplaying my Uberpowered-but-Cursed Saphic Vampire Queen !!! And this is how you frighten players while your NPC have quite low stats because this is a first adventure and you don't want their loosy starting characters (an hourglass seller dilettant and an unemployment clown commoner from reikland) to be butchered... Your description is their only clue to evaluate your NPC's power... This is a so great mechanic ! During breaks, they kept saying "but, we're only starting characters" although they were fighting a queen vampire stated like an ordinary Crypt Ghoul (with a bit higher Int). I agree. That's a very good technique.

sure, let's what and see what FFG does. Let's be reasonable. I agree. I paid good money for this game, so as long as I'm not breaking any forum rules, I'll use the forums to give honest feedback to a company as a customer both good and bad. I believe FFG is a great company and will fix this. If any company would do something as irrational and ill concieved as removing a license because its players had negative feedback, I'd consider it my duty to save countless gamers from such a company before they invested. The fact that there is even this fear....says volumes about a certain company. So for everyone sake's I've moved my stance meter to neutral. Thank you very much, now I won't hit very often.

willmanx said: If there would be only ONE web adress for WFRP3 GM, It should be this one : http://www.jaj22.org.uk/wfrp/diceroller_compact.html WFRP3 offers a real fast NPC gestion and a lot of diversity for them to act. BUT sharing the dice pool and rolling with the PCs dice pool takes some time and reveal to them the offensive abilities of them. With this, you don't roll anymore, and it is VERY VERY FAST. But how will I terrify my pcs by not picking up a truck load of dice, and shaking them in my hands, while I do the meanancing laugh?

Well I can't say I necessarily disagree. But just how many slayers do you want in your party? There's only one career card for each career as well. I can't imagine anyone player wanting to play the same class as another player.

For adventures, I simply copy/paste all the rules into the adventure, then print it. I take the laptop if we are going to level or look up a rule but I'd say it's needed every 3 sessions. I don't find I like reading 4E in bed, this is where it differs from most rpgs, there much much much more crunch than fluff to read. If it had huge amounts of background like warhammer, i'd say I would want books.

Emirikol said: Not knocking anyone who likes D&D 4e. It just disappointed/p'd me off as a DM, so I dropped it. When we had other players try to DM it, they looked at me like "will you DM again Jay..this sucks to DM." My answer has been the resounding "hell no." When 4.5 comes out and they get rid of some of the annoying core elements, perhaps I'll try it again. Like WFRP3e, D&D4e has a lot of new elements that need to be playtested and improved upon before it can be a considered an evolved game. jh Having played a variety of systems as well I can tell you that I find running 4E to be a breeze. That's not to say I don't use tracking markers on the minis, but once those are added, the game "status" conditions don't have to be remembered, they are just dealt with and removed. I do enjoy GMing warhammer more, because I find 4E a bit like being on "autopilot", it seems to naturally just run itself, where there isn't as much for the GM to do. This game allows more improv at key moments, which I appreciate.

Lucas Adorn said: Yes but the monster builder and the compendium does not build you a story. I can build monster encounters just as fast in 3rd WFRPG. I just need to turn to the page in ToA and wing it from there. takes about 5 secs Lol - of course that's 1/1000th the available monsters of DnD you are dealing with.

willmanx said: No thanks you : phone, electricity, gaz, social insurance, car insurance, house insurance and internet contracts are quite enough for me every monthes. (No offense, but I do ask myself why you're suggesting such a capitalistic-jailing-money-sucking idea... Though FFG might have yet thought about it ) Actually, DDI only seems that way to people. In fact, all you need to play DnD IS ddi because it comes with all the rules and content of the books. 5.95 a month is way cheaper then buying all the books.

The big issue is that there's three programs anchoring DDI. The character builders, the monster builder, and the compendium. That's way more program than some part timer could handle. Then of course there's the issue of additional content. Someone has to produce all that extra content, again way more work than one part time person could handle. Lastly, WotC production schedule of books is way more than what FFG intends with this game. It'll be be almost 4 months between the tool kit and stormdorf. If you previewed that every day, there would be no point in buying it. Neat idea, I just don't see it fitting FFG's biz model.

donbaloo said: . But in the end, it is their IP to do with as they please... Yes. Everyone please keep stating this point again and again. GW already has lawyers stating this for them over and over to FFG, so why don't gamers keep making this point to each other over and over again? The issue is that GW is nerfing my enjoyment of the game. No other RPG I have ever purchased or played tried such control jackassery. I'm saying GW IS the kind of company that, if they found out if you were using unapproved artwork for the RPG at a covention, such as showing an orc picture from Age of Reckoning, they would ask you to stop. They probably aren't going to know you are doing that, but if they did know, they ARE the kind of company that would ask you to stop. And for what? Let me give you an example. There's a great sci fi game I play that let's you be characters on a starship It has its own interesting universe but in order to pull people into the game I know a guy that runs it as conventions with a firefly, star wars, star trek, starship troopers, babylon 5, themes, often getting a big crowd and big interest. This guy isn't running as part of the company, he's just a gamer having fun and getting people excited about gaming. Now, does the company have a right to ask him to stop and expressely run the game in their universe? Perhaps. Did they just shoot themselves in the foot on both sales and gamers having fun? Yes.There's a reason why games companies don't spend time controlling their IP, 1. because it's futile and someone, somewhere, and somehow is going to do it and 2. it's generating sales and excitement in your product. FFG will probably let us use the symbols, and colors and general layout of a action card. This most likely solves the issue, and if they don't, I'm sure more people will say they have the legal right to restrict it. I don't think it being THEIR game was ever in dispute. Ultimately, this card thing is not a big deal for me. I like everything about the game, won't cause me to stop, As I said before I stopped buying GW games because of decisions that punished players. I was under the impression, mistakenly as with any game under license, that design companies have control over their own work, at least to the point that a customer doesn't have to worry about doing something as innoncent as reposting card layouts (notice I did not say reposting actual rule cards, which is different). However, it's clear GW is back in my grill, with rules and restrictions, that no other game company has the idiocy to do. Now, I get it. Everyone wants to make the legal point. I was just trying to enjoy myself as I do with any game. Players are not only your customer base, they are a huge resource in spreading the popularity of a game. This is just general disrespect and its disrespect enough that I have serious doubts in doing what I normally do with games I love, take them to game stores, coventions, and shows and show they off to new players.

It's AMAZINGLY easier to make adventures in 4E. This has more to do with the tools that are accessible for the system. But using just the monster builder and the compendium I have access to everything where in 3x I had to pull the info from dozens of books. It's a complete search, drag and drop, play, compared to hunting for things scattered in all the 3x books.

gruntl said: While I do agree that both FFG and GW have the right to push people to pull copyrighted material from the web (it might actually not hold in a court of law, but most individuals will never want to risk challenging huge companies on such an issue), I still think that it's is not in their interest to do so. I find it very unlikely that people would use a program like Strange Eons to recreate material they do not already own. It would be way easier to just photocopy the cards in that case. So it boils down to that Hurlanc's plug-in is using backgrounds, design and symbols from the original cards. NB, he is not distributing artwork (and by that I mean the images that are on cards) that has not already been released publicly. There is no doubt that also the backgrounds and so on are copyrighted, but still I cannot see what FFG/GW are losing by letting people use these things. Of course, being from a european country means that I have very little knowledge of american copyright laws (if they stand to lose copyrights due to not defending them I guess there is not much to discuss). Hedge, in your fan-made adventure (which is awesome by the way) you're yourself using copyrighted material in the form of dice symbols. Wouldn't you find it a little odd if this turns out to be not allowed? I really think that being able to use the minor things like dice symbols, stance pieces and possibly some card designs adds a lot to player-made content. Hopefully this is also what FFG will realise and I hope they will release some of this for general use. gruntl said: Hedge, in your fan-made adventure (which is awesome by the way) you're yourself using copyrighted material in the form of dice symbols. Wouldn't you find it a little odd if this turns out to be not allowed? I really think that being able to use the minor things like dice symbols, stance pieces and possibly some card designs adds a lot to player-made content. Hopefully this is also what FFG will realise and I hope they will release some of this for general use. This is really my point. I don't care about the artwork. The artwork wasn't the issue for me, I was under the impression the cards can't even LOOK LIKE action cards, meaning color, symbols, fonts, etc... I disagree in some areas about fair use, but I really don't even want to have that arguement. If this turns out to be the case I won't contribute any more fanwork to the game, and I'll remove the games I had planned to run at origins and gen con. Simply put I don't need this kind of grief. I was just a player working on some stuff on my free time, that now, may not be allowed to be shared. If that's the case, screw it, i'll just play the game with my home group.

DagobahDave said: Sinister said: Copyright Law exists so people don't make a PROFIT from it. You're mistaken, and I can give you a simple example why. If I buy a copy of the WFRP rulebook on RPGNow, and then I post that PDF file on my website so anyone can download it for free... Do I even need to finish that thought? Can't you see right away how that's causing problems for the copyright holder, and how it infringes on their rights? Why would anyone buy from the source ever again, if they can just get it from you for free? (The person who reuses copyright-protected material has to do quite a lot of work to prove that they're educating others, by the way.) Dave, Once again, I never advocated, the copying of rules and already published materials. However, to deny the format in which game componets are release in such a way that I can not share original thought within said game for non commerical non profit does fall under fair use. If I wanted to make a paraody game and wanted to make it look as much as I could like warhammer, then it's fair use.

DagobahDave said: Sinister said: Copyright Law exists so people don't make a PROFIT from it. You're mistaken. no I'm not. If that wasn't the intent then the whole concept of fair use would not exist. sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include: 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; 3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and 4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

superklaus said: Dont complain. Its your own fault that you support such kraken companies with your wallet. In truth they prosper because of hysterical fanbois, which buy every sh*tty game material they release. As I've stated elsewhere, I ended my purchased of GW products in 2001. I haven't bought one single thing from them. This year I purchased blood bowl online and this game, ONLY and specifically, because they were not being managed by GW.

HedgeWizard said: NO ONE is saying that fan content isn't allowed. What they are likely taking issue with is using COPYRIGHTED content (images, etc.) that is then being re-distributed via the internet. It isn't lawful to take copyrighted material and reprint it, however modified you feel it is, without their expressed consent. If you take issue with that, you need to take up the issue with Copyright and similar similar laws in your own country. Otherwise, a company has every right to take advantage and enforce any appropriately held copyright law, internet rage notwithstanding. HedgeWizard said: NO ONE is saying that fan content isn't allowed. What they are likely taking issue with is using COPYRIGHTED content (images, etc.) that is then being re-distributed via the internet. It isn't lawful to take copyrighted material and reprint it, however modified you feel it is, without their expressed consent. If you take issue with that, you need to take up the issue with Copyright and similar similar laws in your own country. Otherwise, a company has every right to take advantage and enforce any appropriately held copyright law, internet rage notwithstanding. Hedge, I can go to a hundred RPG sites that have the D&D logo and/or a setting logo and WotC doesn't come after this people. Why? Because it HELPS sell the game. Wotc wants players, they want people talking about their game, they want fans. GW just goes out of their way to antogonize customers. What other company in the hobby industry is asking their stuff by removed from rpggeek? It's only one. Copyright Law exists so people don't make a PROFIT from it. Futhermore I contest using their artwork is in fact FAIR USE, since technically you are using it to teach people a game. The point is why would you attack your customer base over this? What possible motivation can their be to make your customers angry?