sinister6
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Posts posted by sinister6
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keltheos said:
What does this have in common with their boardgames that is patently not in common with other RPGs and in such a way that it couldn't be mistaken for a RPG component?
I have a feeling people are being fairly myopic about what does and doesn't constitute an RPG component in a different costume (example, the ability cards, what's the difference in them being cards vs. a laundry list in a book? Can't a list of feats/abilities/spells for a character be referenced to cards for space conservation on a character sheet? I've done it with RPGs)
It uses a boardgame interface. Many componets that do essentially what pen and paper would do on a character sheet. I'd say half of your character is in the boardgame componets. It is not a boardgame however.
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The movement system is in ranges:
Engaged
Short
Medium
Long
Extended
Extended to long is 3 moves, long to medium 2, medium to short 1, to engage is 1.
You get one free move, so any additional are 1 fatigue. So yes you could sprint from extended to engaged. It would be awful for you, but that possiblity is there. The cards provide some possibilities if you are in that terrian.
I intend for this game to move away from a gridded battlemap to a dry erase board. If the chacters are in that terrian they get the effects.
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For Pathfinder
I see four hardback rule releases. Everything else is the much much much smaller pathfinder magazine and accessories. How many people do you think subscribe to that? Do you think those subscriptions have a volume print of Martial Power or a PHB II?
Not one game store in town (of the 5) carrying the pathfinder subscription. Out of the hundered of players playing DND I know one, and only one who has a subscription to pathfinder's.
So reapers on board to. Those sales won't be 1/1000th of DnD minis line.
We can argue about this all day long because we don't know exact sales figures, but you can honestly believe that they are in the neighboorhood of Wizards' DnD sales?
They are doing are small print runs catering to a smaller audience.
sure I could just cater to a few die hard Warhammer Fans, or I could use the full potential of FFG, and their boardgame componets to reach a whole new audience.
They are doing the small and loyal crowd approach, which eventually screws them from young players. They have a niche for now, but in 6 years it'll be tough choice time, and my money is on them mutating the system more dramatically than Pathfinder.
Not only that, but reprinting old rulesets don't inspire creativity in designers, and does get the crowd excited (one way or another). It's trying to recapture lighting in a bottle from 3x''s release 8 years ago. They just happened to reconize there's still some money to be had beating the dead horse.
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Shadowspawn said:
Sinister said:
As I've said before, This game will endure a long period of hate, just like 4E D&D did. Angry fomer edition fans, who intend to complain and complain in hopes that will change the tide of sales and success of this edition.
FFG made the right move, you know it, we all know it. You had two choices. Take the game in a completely new direction, or reprint the books with the same mechanic, hoping that the fans would rebuy everything just for a few changes you made. In the end that would have just been 5 years of medicore sales, at best.
Probably the most sensible reason for a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy that I've seen posted here yet. If it had been a better game with less resourcement management it might have appealed to my gaming group.
It's a shame your group didn't like it but I totally understand. Every single edition of something will have people that just don't like it. Just remember that you have your 2E stuff, and your group likes it. Keep playing what you like! I'd sit in a game of 2E if I was in your neck of the woods.
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zombieneighbours said:
Sinister said:
As I've said before, This game will endure a long period of hate, just like 4E D&D did. Angry fomer edition fans, who intend to complain and complain in hopes that will change the tide of sales and success of this edition.
FFG made the right move, you know it, we all know it. You had two choices. Take the game in a completely new direction, or reprint the books with the same mechanic, hoping that the fans would rebuy everything just for a few changes you made. In the end that would have just been 5 years of medicore sales, at best.
These are not by any means the ONLY choices that where availible to FFC. We live in a very exciting time for the development of the RPG industry. They could have continued with 2nd edition, but set out to provide high quality adventures, containing new setting and game material using a subscription based model similar to the pathfinder adventure paths, they could have looked to the patronage model or any number of other approachs. Perhapes they did and decided they where not viable, but the options where not 'mediocre for 5 year' or new game.
Much like 4e, this is not a new edition, but a new game. That is why there is Nerd Rage. Greater honesty by both FFG and WotC on this point would almost certainly save them a lot of hastle. 'Look, the old game had problems, we want to try something new, but need the brand recognision of the old name. Is that okay with you our loyal fans.' would almost certainly go down better.
As I've said before pathfinder is no where near the money generating potentional that FFG needs or wants. There's a reason that paizo only has 4 books coming out after 13 months of release. It's because the sales are substantially small. They are great for Paizo, don't get me wrong, but not let's say at the level that Wizards of the Coast wants. 4 books in a year wouldn't pay the bills and make the profits. Paizo is happy with their market niche, it's NOT the niche for Warhammer, however.
I have nothing against pathfinder, but it IS a reprint. There sales base is very small compared to Wizards of the Coast, DESPITE, offering 95% the same content. A core book "pathfinder" edition, might sell as much as this core box set, the expansions would be at best mediocre sales.
The bottom line is something like this : People get excited about new products, compeletely new. If is more of the same old same old, they decided on a case by case basis. There's no denying however, that everyone that owns a core box set right now, WANTS a adveturer's toolkit.
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Necrozius said:
Sinister said:
4. I have every right to say I hate the game over and over and over. You just don't want me to repeat myself because you are a fanboi.
Quoted from the SA forums, Traditional Games discussion:
"I love Edition debates because they boil down to two fat nerds basically trying to convince each other that they are not having fun."
HA HA HA HA HA
That is so true. What amazes me is when it breaks down into an arguement of math and probability, and technical issues. While I understand that's important to game design, it's only important to players when the game isn't fun.
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Necrozius said:
I'm starting to think that the controversy over this new edition of a roleplaying game is going to be worse than when 4th edition D&D was released.
I find the whole thing quite ridiculous and petty.
This is the attacks, D&D saw/continues to see
1. The game is made for kids, short attention spans who need all the componets to focus on the game.
2. The game is a boardgame (this will become the 4E D&D is World of Warcraft arguement for warhammer) not an rpg.
3. I know I have an old oop edition I could play, but I'd rather be on internet boards saying how much I hate it, over and over and over.
4. I have every right to say I hate the game over and over and over. You just don't want me to repeat myself because you are a fanboi.
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As I've said before, This game will endure a long period of hate, just like 4E D&D did. Angry fomer edition fans, who intend to complain and complain in hopes that will change the tide of sales and success of this edition.
FFG made the right move, you know it, we all know it. You had two choices. Take the game in a completely new direction, or reprint the books with the same mechanic, hoping that the fans would rebuy everything just for a few changes you made. In the end that would have just been 5 years of medicore sales, at best.
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you bring up the idea that the reviewer thinks it's a boardgame.
The boardgame arguement is going on over at the stun or strike boards. Where the forum description reads:
Wahammer 3rd edition....
"This is the forum for FFG's new boardgame/rpg-hybrid called WFRP. Never forget, the threads (no not the dice) tell the story...".
I couldn't help but call attention to the fact I didn't think it was a boardgame, neither do the designers. That however, hasn't gone over well with 2E fans overthere who seem to rally behind it being a boardgame.
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froo said:
Necrozius said:
Let us unite in our hatred for a common foe: the Magic the Gathering Goons. They sure suck, don't they? HA HA HA
In Magic's defense, it was MTG that got me into roleplaying... after I saw some guys doing it years ago at a gamestore I played Magic at.
Yours is the story of hundreds, if not thousands.
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calibur1 said:
Sinister said:
I'm not expecting a fanboi. We just want people to try it before dimissing it. I'm actually good friends with a store owner in New Jersey. They are carrying it, if you want to play it, PM me, I'll give the stores info. You are totally correct the bottom line is what matters. But this whole thing is going down like 4E. If you don't like it fine, but there's ALOT of nerd rage out there dimissing it out of hand.
But the tone of this guy's "review" doesn't read to me like nerd rage. He's just not enthusiastic about it. He probably should have read the rules first, but to be fair he didn't really say that the rules were good or bad. All he did was comment on his impression of the contents. And whether you like it or not, not everyone is going to buy into the bells and whistles. Their expectations are going to be different; **** everything else.
True. This review is not nearly as bad as the others I've seen.
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calibur1 said:
I read the review; if you want to call it that. It was more like a description of the box’s contents. I really don’t believe that it was negative. The tone read to me more like indifference. It was obvious that he wasn’t all that impressed, which might as well be a negative review if you’re trying to sell something. But why are you surprised? Are you shocked that he’s not a fanboi gushing all over it? He has nothing invested in FFG, WFRP, or your game. He probably didn’t play it, but so what? There are a lot of games out there that, good and bad, that I haven’t played just because they didn’t click with me. I also know that the difference between a good and bad game is the GM, but that’s a topic for another discussion. The point is it didn’t excite him, but that doesn’t make him a moron. The three gamestores in my area are not stocking it, because no one showed any interest, and it cost too much to keep on the shelves. They will take special orders. So there you have it from where I come from, which is New Jersey.
I put some thought into all these post, both for and against WFRP 3E. In the end my opinion doesn’t matter. Neither does yours. Neither does any of the other fanbois on here. Unless anyone else, beside the people on this forum, buys this game it won’t be around very long. So the only opinion that does matter is the bottom line.
I'm not expecting a fanboi. We just want people to try it before dimissing it. I'm actually good friends with a store owner in New Jersey. They are carrying it, if you want to play it, PM me, I'll give the stores info. You are totally correct the bottom line is what matters. But this whole thing is going down like 4E. If you don't like it fine, but there's ALOT of nerd rage out there dimissing it out of hand.
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morskittar said:
The part that gets me is when the out-of-hand dismissal comes from game store owners, distributors, and the hobby game channel. The same folks that find an endless stream of excuses as their stores and sales shrink, blaming video games, kids, the economy, and everything except for their own shoddy attitude, lack of professionalism and poor sales orientation.
The likes of FFG, GW, and WotC manage to stay in business by *not* treating their operations as clubhouses and platforms for their own personal, pet projects.
Not to say this reviewer is or isn't of that mindset, but the attitude is reminiscent, considering the lack of detail and vague, "overview" impressions that seem oriented toward a predisposed goal. He misses most of the actual flaws, too, which you'd think a critical review would pick up on.
agreed.
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What amazes me from the negative reviews from around the board is who it mirrors the negative reviews of 4E. It's people who see it, and reject it out of hand, simply because it's not their old game. Time and Time again we see this nerd rage.
A year or two after 3.5, there was just toooo much d20. It was the time of glut and declining sales. What could be done? Well two schools of thought.
Produce new verisons very close to previous content and hope people would re-purchase OR come up with new ideas.
The latter is what we are seeing with 4E, and Warhammer 3rd Edition. Some companies have decided to stick with game system updates (like L5R and indeed Pathfinder). We see alot a nerd rage against any company that does not keep their previous system.
Problem is updating old systems just isn't as profitable as developing something new. If Wotc had done a 3.75, nerd rage would abound against them, especially if they had published something like Pathfinder. People would be upset in investing in a third set of core rulebooks that got them 95% of the same information that was in the previous core rulebooks in the last 7 years. Paizo got away with it because of the public perception of "the savoirs of the system", I haven't noticed much in the way of accusing them of a "money grab" or "forcing us to buy" because the public perception on the matter doesn't make people inclined to attack them. Although in truth, there's an incedible amount of the same material in that book as 3.0 and 3.5
Pathfinder, while a fine project, is really just a monstrous reprint, changing a relatively few items. A nice book, wonderful art, but very few orginal or new ideas (although those ideas are nice). Paizo knows there auidence, and produces content on a small scale to make money for them. I'd be hard pressed for WotC to expect to sell just 4 books in 13 months of release, like Paizo plans. Hard pressed to see that for FFG too.
Regardless, it would be nice if gamers could recongnize this transition is GOOD for the industry, reprints is not. Reprints don't inspire creativity or ingenunity in current or future game designs. Reprints don't get people excited, and reprints will never lead to that next lighting in a bottle moment, like 3.0 had in 2000. It leads to small revenues, forcing professionals from the hobby, and closing companies, unless they accept a smaller buisness share. It leads to bored gamers (we all have very small attention spans) looking to spend their cash in other mediums like electronic and internet gaming.
It amazes me how many reject a game out of hand. Gamers calling new games dumbed down, despite knowing that Thaco was dropped to make the game accessible to more people in 3.0. Calling a game "WoW" in a degoratory way while spending money on "WoW" because you like it. Being mad at a game for having a boardgame interface for and RPG rather than pen and pencil. Dumbed Down? Well if that's your belief, maybe you weren't playing games in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You know when rulebooks were 10 point font, 200 page manual and read with headings like "rule 98.2A". Ultimately money talks and B.S. Walks. And the sales of some of these new RPGs prove it.
To those that give it an honest try, thanks for trying it. Sometimes a new edtion is not someone's cup of tea. That's fine. You have your untarnished old edition to play, and now you don't have to spend money. It's not the end of the world.
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It says on the boat on the status page. I would suspect it in two weeks. There's 10 carrers, we know ironbreaker, wardancer, ratcatcher are 3 of them.
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THE RPGA is ran by Wizards of the Coast. As such the promote Star Wars and DnD.
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I ordered some of the adventures. To convert to 3rd.
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Thanks. I'll be using this as soon as get my set and read through the rules!
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Varnias Tybalt said:
Sinister said:
You guys totally need to do what I did, marry a gamer!!! IT solves all problems
Im sure it does. The trick is to find one that you actually like first. While being a gamer herself would be a big plus with me, it's not really a guaranteed match made in heaven just because she play the same kind of games like I do.
Just go to any gamer/geek-store on a busy day and check out some of the personalities there. While I do consider the geeks to often possess quite a few admirable qualities that simply comes with being a geek, some of them can be EXTREMELY abrasive (check out the competetive Magic: The Gathering scene sometime and you'll know exactly what im talking about).
Anyhow, back on topic...
LoL too true.
I didn't pick her up in game store thank god.
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You guys totally need to do what I did, marry a gamer!!! IT solves all problems
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FFG,
Please put the monster stats in future adventure supplements. I noticed they weren't in a day late and a shilling short and it just saves time,energy and table space not to have to find and crack open another book, plus it interupts the game flow to do so.
Thanks a bunch.
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Necrozius said:
Mal Reynolds said:
It can add a new dimension to your roleplaying games, or it might not suit your and your friends tastes at all. Know your players, that`s all I can say when dealing with such theme.
BINGO.
It's a pretty fundamental concept: some people aren't comfortable with hearing their friends essentially narrate telephone sex at the gaming table.
That's why I abstract it to silly dicerolls. Everyone gets the hint what the player is doing. The dice add an element of unpredictability and sometimes comedy or indeed feels you are awesome, without the need to narrate the details, exept maybe to say "Well Done" or "It was over before it started....."
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It occasionally comes up in my games. Romance and political drama are often two sources of conflict to break up combat. Normally however, it's something fairly lightharted, like a bar wench has fallen in love with one of the players, or the wife of a lord is showing an interest, do you dare get yourself involved in what could be a lethal affair?
The one thing I normally do is make a player make a vigor / staminia / whatever works for the system roll because when the character fails and doesn't "perform" up to standards, the group finds that the funniest **** thing in the world. And when the character succeeds well he earns a reputation he can't get rid of.
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Necrozius said:
Sinister said:
I think I'm going to set my game in 1999, so the players can visit mordhiem and deal with von carstien
Heck yes!
I'm actually dusting off some old Ravenloft adventure modules for my campaign. Heh.
Come to think of it, I wonder if we could get a bunch of forum members together to write up a Von Carstein campaign.
Heck, it could even be written with split rules (2nd AND 3rd stats, for example), just like old school WFRP books, which had both stats for the RPG and the battle game.
...Hmm... new thread possibility...
LoL I like what I started here I'll let you all write my campaign.
CEO,Christian Petersen Disappointing by the review of ICV2.com and speak is Mind about it!!!!
in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Posted
Loswaith said:
nub5 said:
Skywalker said:
HorusZA said:
I think it's bad form for a publisher to comment publicly on a negative review and I'd be surprised if this was intended for public consumption.
As light and ill informed as the review was, it is very bad form from FFG to respond in this way.
I tend to disagree. What you write is generally good advice except when the review is completely flawed. Reading the review it is obvious the reviewer did not perform due dilligence in reviewing the product. As was written above, the review is analogous to a food critic that just walks past the restaurant and commits on how the food is, it unprofessional.
Sure I agree the review was lacking. Thats obvious to me and I took the review as lacking because of it.
I also have a failry good inclination had the review had a more positive spin and the overall result given 5/5 nothing would have been said at all about the lack of them playing the game.
I mean given this (bolded for empahsis):
... And at a price comparable with the three D&D4E core book (which in practice will only support one player)....
The CEO either doesnt know much about RPGs or didnt take care enough to think about the statement. To think that the core rules of D&D (or any other RPG for that matter) supports only one player is ludicrous. I had to read over it again to make sure I didnt miss something.
I also love the RP spin of sending out 400 demo copies (implying at their own expence) to stores that they actually sold (abet at likely cost) to them, or so I believe the case was. I am not even sure there was 100 locations doing the demo for that matter (anyone know how many locations?).
I believe the intent is one of company perception. IE each player will own a copy of the player's guide. I mean if you are serious about the game beyond just your group, you'll own a copy.
There were 3 locations here doing demo, and that's one midwest city. I believe 400 is very plausible number.