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    , Blaroland, Germany
  1. There is really no reason tanks with a configuration like this can't be 'standard' pattern. The patterns given in the books are mostly limited to what GW has already put out, which in turn is limited by what GW has been willing to create miniatures for. But I think none of the designers involved has ever claimed the list of standard configurations published is exhaustive of the number of standard configurations that exist within the setting. Just think of a cool name for the configuration, maybe the names of some forge worlds famous for creating tanks of that configuration in especially high quality and numbers:
  2. AtoMaki said: We always got the job done. And in the Warhammer 40k universe the end always justifies the means. Just to clear that up, the opposite is in fact the case. You will not find a setting where the venues of acceptable means are as narrowly defined and the punishments of deviation as harsh as Warhammer 40k. It just appears differently to many audiences because the allowed means in 40k include many that are unbelievably over the top, monstrous and calluous from the point of view of the average real world person. Doesn't change the fact that in the end, 40k is anything but a means justify the ends setting. This is mostly because there are so many means that will not just end in fulfilling the mission's goal, but also in you becoming posessed by a demon that then explodes from your head and takes an entire star system into hell. The Imperium can't afford to allow any means necessary philosophy. Even relatively important missions aren't worth any means, if said means lead to the people doing it becoming more open to the influence of Chaos. About the morality system: i don't think it's necessary. Just be very willing to hand our corruption and insanity points, IMO they suffice to show the results of "evil" behaviour. Shoving your brother in arms into harm's way is basically taking the express highway to becoming a servant of the ruinous powers.
  3. Basically, if someone wants to play a commissar, both the other players and the DM need to be really sure he can be trusted with the kind of power the position of Commissar provides. The guy playing the Commissar in our group does so because I specifically asked him to play either the Commissar or Sergeant. Because I knew I could trust him in these roles. If there is no player in your group that fulfills this criterium it might be better not to give Commissar as an option to begin with.
  4. AtoMaki said: ^I dunno, but if it is really the case, then the whole Imperial Guard is a massive organization of creepy weirdos, because Guardsmen lack the Charm and Deceive Skills… And personally, I don't think that it is the case. I mean, the NPCs are not static props waiting for the interactions of the PCs… I think for OW, as is the case for every rpg I have ever played, the rules are not the setting. They are meant to facilitate interesting play, not allow realistic simulation of everything that happens within the setting. In the case of the 40k rpg, this is explicidly the case. A few years ago I sent a question to FFG about Goliath ships in Rogue Trader and why their main objective of harvesting plasma was so hard that by the rules an average Goliath would be destroyed every third time it harvested plasma. I got the following answer from Sam Stewart: "[…]In other words, the rules provided here are for vessels crewed by player characters, in order to make the experience challenging and not without risk.[…]" A game system that is able to plausibly simulate everything that happens within the setting would be extremely awesome, but though many have tried, no game has ever succeeded. Some tried really hard. tl;dr: Assumably, NSCs don't roll charm/deceive against each other. Same as the NSC crew of a Goliath normally doesn't have to test if it gets destroyed when harvesting plasma. Same as NSC Navigators don't use the rules for warp travel provided in RT unless going up against a PC ship (just imagine if they did. The Imperium would be functionally impossible, so high would the rate of destroyed or lost ships be). (Edit: Note that at least in my games, rolls on charm to foster good relationships between members of the same regiment would get pretty big boni, especially if backed up with a bottle of Amasec. Enough that even Fellowship 25 guardsmen would have a fair chance at succeeding, as going through hell together means a lot and creates an enormous amount of trust and goodwill. Giving a good description of what is being done and said by the player would increase this even further.)
  5. AtoMaki said: Gokerz said: In OW on the other hand, your Regiment and your relationship with it will directly and seriously influence nearly every single combat encounter. Yes. And this is why you don't want to roll Deceive/Charm… Because when you do, then you are screwing someone up. And that's not friendly. Not at all. Generally, as I see it, you build your positive relationships with being The Nice Guy. And not rolling Charm every time you think you can. I think we have different interpretations of what using charm or deceive means from an IC perspective. For me, Charm isn't some form of mind control or hostile social attack. Using Charm is being the nice guy. In my opinion, If you try to be the nice guy without actually having the charm skill, you will not be seen as the friendly guy trying handing out amasec from the goodness of his heart. You'll be seen as the creepy weirdo that thinks he can 'buy' everyone's good will by handing out stuff. Deceive is more of an edge case, but functioning as part of the regiment will sooner or later require you to work together and depend on people you find personally revolting. Killing them or avoiding them is not really an option, so being able to play nice and hide your true opinion of them will be important to fit in. To pull this back to the skills specific applications to survive tough combat encounters, Deceive will often be the skill that decides if you can make your squads situation sound dire enough over the vox that reinforcements comes now, not in an hour (and later help you make everyone belief that this was the right call).
  6. AtoMaki said: *taptap* Are we still in this topic? The OP asked how to make characters who can survive tough encounters. After some discussion, I said that Int and Fel are tetriary characteristics as Int has special classes for it and a character can solve Fel based stuff without rolling anything and playing the game smart I think I'd actually agree with you here, if we were talking about DH or BC. In those games PCs will normaly be by themselves in combat situations, so while Charm/Deceive is probably more important outside combat situations than in OW, it doesn't help within actual combat encounters. In OW on the other hand, your Regiment and your relationship with it will directly and seriously influence nearly every single combat encounter. In a normal OW where you aren't playing some kind of elite squad of Transhuman fighting machines, most fighting will be happening as part of larger operation while working together with multiple other, mutally supporting forces. In OW, unlike the other games, your ability to be on friendly terms with your supporting squads, the Medics healing you between combat, the Mechanicus priests keeping your gear in order, or the mortar squads giving fire support, will directly, noticeably, and lastingly, influence a PC's ability to survive a tough combat encounter. AtoMaki, you have to realize just how untypical things like playing High Threat Tactical Assault Teams or resolving "Fel based stuff without rolling" is for most OW groups. I actually have to admit that I don't think I have ever played a game before OW where charm/deceive type skill actually affected your ability to survive a tough combat encounter, so it's not something most people will think of when they start playing OW for the first time. Doesn't mean that it isn't true in the specific, and maybe even unique, case of Only War. (I agree on Int though) tl;dr: we are still on topic
  7. Hordeoverseer said: I wonder if anyone has established a ranking system in the game, whether based on real life ranks or customized for the setting or regiment. I want to know, where do the commisaars stand in all of this, are they literally above everyone else or are they intergrated into the officer system. They are literally apart from everyone else. Not part of the normal chain of command. They only get their orders from the Commissariat, which is a seperate organisation to the Imperial Guard and belongs to the Departmento Munitorum. Their job is only to motivate troops, mete out punishments and find dissidents and heretics within the ranks of the Imperial Guard. In practice, this often gives them a lot of power to influence the decisions made by officers.
  8. srMontresor said: I don't agree that 'everyone is in it together' in the regiment. Like any organisation, a military regiment is full of opportunists, the self-interested, the greedy, and the plain mean spirited (as well as all those who are none of these things). These people will not simply bend over backwards for the player characters, and this fact has led to some very enjoyable campaigns. I love running free-form campaigns that take surprising turns, and rolls based on the important social interactions have helped that to happen in a believable fashion. And that is the really important thing. The regiment is not there for the players' convenience. It can be a tremendous resource and help, but they will have to earn that. No regiment begins as a group of friends that trusts each other.
  9. Gokerz

    Hate Ratlings?

    MILLANDSON said: Gokerz said: I just assume Kender have ruined all types of halfling for most roleplayers everywhere forever. Kender? http://1d4chan.org/images/4/45/Kender_race_description_annotated.png gives a good introduction to Kender and most people's reaction to them.
  10. AtoMaki said: If you are just a honest Huardsman, then you will never roll to Charm/Deceive, Command is slightly useless, and the important stuff (Scrutiny) is Per based. Nothing against your style of play, it is after all fun for you. But for me, if I am not playing the game where the PCs are part of a larger, quite direct structure of support; a structure based partially on tradition and laws, but mostly on informal friendships and respect. If it's not a game where the manner in which they tread the people they are in a regiment with, fight next to, call for help to, spend their free time with, trade their goods with, drink their Amasec with and lie in next to in the dirt, doesn't directly influence their ability to survive the next encounter with crazy things from outer space. If the game isn't one where the cameraderie, the bonds they form in blood and fire with people far beyond just the other PCs, isn't the most important thing that keeps them going and gives their life a meaning. Then, for me, it's not Only War. Dark Heresy doesn't have that, Rogue Trader doesn't have that, DW or BC don't have that. Only OW has that focus, that close look at the bonds that form in war. I have Deathwatch for when I want to play combat focused ubermenschen. It's a lot of fun, I wouldn't want to be without it. But for me it's not Only War. All you have described about your OW group shows them as a group of lone supersoldiers that value their independence and ability to solve problems as a small team above all. Seriously, your groups seems capable of surviving a trip to a planet that's basically completely in the hands of chaos and suffused with warp energy. That's not remotely within the ability of even the best guardsman that isn't written by Dan Abnett. It is great for you, I honestly don't want to implicate that there is anything inherently wrong there. But please don't take that as a lesson that just because it's the truth for the subjective experience of your group, "an honest guardsman will never roll Charm/Deceive" is even remotely true for any other OW group in the whole wide world. (I am also very drunk, so please don't take this post too seriously)
  11. borithan said: No one should ever allow point buy for stats. It makes cheesing the system so easy… I have made the opposite experience. I used roll-up stats in the beginning, with DH, RT and DW, but switched to point buy for OW. I really disliked how unpredictable rolling up stats made PC capabilities, how it leads weird competence spreads in the group, and so on. Point buy allows me to have a much better idea what each PC will be good at. I know my players and am comfortable with the small degree of min-maxing they bring to the game.
  12. Gokerz

    Hate Ratlings?

    I just assume Kender have ruined all types of halfling for most roleplayers everywhere forever.
  13. Gokerz

    Battle Reports

    Had our first game last Wednesday. Group is in the Barracks of the Lunar Class Cruiser 'Lux Aeterna' (belonging to their Rogue Trader group), on their way to battle. Began with the group (except for the Commissar) in their quarters which they share with another squad, playing Poker for Lho Sticks with an NSC from their Platoon's Grenadier Squad and the Comrade of one of the players (with the unlucky demeanour, which explains why people liked playing with them). They are interrupted by the Sergeant of yet another squad, who waves Ortwin Ober, the PC sergeant, aside. Turns out, thanks to some confusion with guard duties among the Rogue Trader's House Guard, one of the IG has been able to steal a crate of high quality Amasec from the Lord Captain's personal stock. Now they want to organize a tournament where Troopers have rats they caught on board the Cruiser fight each other. The owner of each winning rat would get one of the bottles. The only thing they needed now was for the PCs' Squad to find a way of distracting Commisar Vigilis (the other PC), who happened to be responsible for the area of the Barracks in which the tournament was to happen. The PCs also got the tip that one of the Enginseers with a reputation for her Poker skills had been able to get into a Poker round with some high ups in the Rogue Trader's retinue and was looking for one more player. As incentive, the PCs would get one of the Amasec bottles in addition to any the Weapon Specialist's pet rat might win. The PCs instantly agreed, and decided to go looking for the Enginseer. Because they didn't want to risk being caught outside their quarters without good reason they made sure to have some damaged stuff with them, which they could give to the Enginseer for repair. Naturally, Darrien Alba, the comrade of the Heavy Weapon specialist with the Unlucky Demeanour, had something. A simple dataslate with a crack in the screen. They found the Enginseer talking with the Regiments 2nd youngest Commisar, Parax Patrias, not looking too happy. Interrupting one of the meanest and most choleric Commisars they knew didn't seem like a good idea, so the PCs waited around nearby. Turns out, bringing the damaged items was a good idea, as Parax instantly noticed that they were farther from their quarters than they should be, but accepted their reasons for wanting to see the Enginseer. Leaving them a bit shaken, he departed at a brisk pace. Taking a deep breath they approached the Enginseer. Who, it turns out, wasn't really what they were expecting. A young woman, of the lowest rank of the Mechanicus that get their trademak Implants, pretty, with very little augmentation and perfectly willing to say some very true and shocking things that would make most sailors blush about not very dear Commisar Parax Patrias. When she followed that up with telling the PCs with a dry smile that the Dataslate they handed her for repair was one created for pornographic material that would probably get them shot if found on their person, Sergeant Ober made a decision. While Weapon specialist Pallas grabbed the Dataslate from the Enginseer for "save disposal", Ober told the Enginseer the truth about the tournament. Supplementing that with some high praise of their Commisar's poker skills did the trick, and a deal was struck. In exchange for giving her part of the Amasec the group was due she would try her best to recruit the Commisar. Scenechange to Commissar Vigilis quarters, some while later. Vigilis sitting at his desk, drinking a glass of cheap Amasec, where there is a knock at the door. In comes a heavily armoured form, introducing himself as Judge Taylor, one of the highest ranking Arbites on board the cruiser. Chatting with Vigilis under the pretense of wanting to improve communications between his Arbites and the IG on board, he in truth wants to check out if the Commissar is as suited for the Poker group as Enginseer Arcos told him. The chat goes well and Vigilis finds himself invited to the game that night. Some hours later, with Vigilis safely distracted, the PCs enter the ratfighting tournament with Pallas' rat Pete. In a clever move, Pallas is able to bribe the medic responsible for checking the rats with a dataslate filled with pornographic material and secure some more serious combat drugs for Pete. The first fight goes well, with Pete coming out on top without too much damage. Heartened by their victory and hoping for another easy win, they drop Pete into one more match. But an easy win is not what they get. The Pionieers from squad 1-5-3 drop a giant beast of a rat, so heavily mutated that it has grown horns and come through two matches already without so much as a scratch, named Smasher. What follows is the most intense and fun combat we have had in months, the course of which will live on in the memory of the 150 guardsmen present and that will probably become Regimental legend (the kind the Commissars' never get to hear). Over the course of a long and grueling fight that sees all three PCs that are present spend every single Fatepoint they have on behalf of Pete, Smasher gets wittled down bit by bit and finally disembowled. In the end, even Smasher's caretakers from 1-5-3 gratulate the PCs on Pete's victory, the seemingly impossible win of small and normal Pete over the dirty mutant seen as a good Omen for the Regiment's future fate. Meanwhile, quite some way away, Vigilis has a fun evening getting very drunk on fine Amasec and playing Poker with Judge Taylor, Enginseer Arcos and the Master of Weaponry of one of the Cruiser's Macrocannon Batteries. He ends up second, with Enginseer Arcos taking most of the wins by a large margin (rolled a 01). Though Vigilis doesn't mind his loss that much, especially after spending the rest of the night in the Enginseer's quarters. But everything good comes to an end, and when Vigilis returns to his own quarters he finds Commissar Patrias waiting for him. The regiment's companies are policed by individual Commissar based on informal agreements between them, with the younger ones taking less and the older, experienced ones taking care of 3-4. Now, Commissar Feindt, the regiment's oldest Commissar has decided to give one of „his“ companies to one of the younger Commissars and it is up to Vigilis and Patrias to decide who of them get the responsibility. Patrias, the opposite of Vigilis in nearly every way, hates the other's style of motivating his troops, what with not being based on shooting as many soldiers as possible in the head or flogging them publicly until they looked like they had been thrown into a shredder. They end up agreeing on a training exercise between the squads that were assigned to them. Each commissar has one squad that has the job of protecting him and helping him on the battlefield. The PCs' squad in the case of Vigilis. Whoever's squad wins obviously has the better style of Commissaring the troops and get responsibility for Company 5. Here endeth the session. End result: The PC Guardsmen got Amasec, lots connections and reknown, and a place in Regiment legend. The PC Commissa got some very good social connections, laid, and an enemy. Lots of fun where had
  14. sanguinemetaldawn said: See, this is actually one of the issues with the class. There is nothing stopping the Tech-Priest from acquiring the Agility Aptitude, making himself substantially quieter. In fact, given the massive number of Characteristic Aptitudes the TP gets, its likely a TP will be able to choose one (such as Agility) that he wishes, making him better at Stealth and good at Acrobatics, of all things. The Techpriest with Agility barely reaches the point of not being actively detrimental to a stealth focused squad, but the Operator will excel in it (there is much more to being a good infiltrator than just having a good stealth skill, and the Op gets the most comprehensive Infiltrator package of all the OW specialities, easily outpacing even Ratling and ST in that role). Honestly, the more I look at it the more I think the Operator is actually the all around better choice for a group than the Techpriest. The combo ST+Op seems much better balanced than ST + TP. The ST is wasted on driving a tank, with his access to one of the best weapons in OW every round that he doesn't shoot it at the enemy is a round that's badly used. The TP in the ST+TP combo would have to be the gunner, which isn't ideal. On average, the vecicle with ST+Op will be shooting twice as many weapons at the enemy as the vehicle with ST+TP. If a vehicle with ST+TP goes up against one with ST+Op, the former will be crushed, being seriously lacking in damage potential compared to the latter. Tech use is one the easier skills to increase via items, and I can't really think of situations where the Operator won't be 'good enough' for anything you might need Tech-Use for (TP starts with Omnitool, Operator with MIU). The knowledge skills are nice, but don't come into play as often in a OW campaign and are mostly reactive. The TP will outperform the Op in white-room personal scale combat situations, but the huge amound by which an Op outdoes a TP in damage potential while in vehicle combat pretty much balances that.
  15. sanguinemetaldawn said: The thing is, in play, I would always choose the ST over the Operator and select the Intelligence Aptitude, if I wanted to play an Operator. That is your prefference. But the ST with Intelligence comes with a marked decrease in ability to participate meaningfully in social scenes, doesn't have the complete set of Infiltrator abilities (though he comes close and could do in a pinch), and can't drive and fire boardweapons at the same time. I'd also reserve judgement on the usefulness of Comrades until Hammer of the Emperor has been released. As Into the Storm and Inquisitor's Handbook have shown well enough, the gamelines aren't really complete uintil these kinds of book are out. A few more Advances and special rules for Comrades may well lead to a massive difference in their usefulness before and after release. I just disagree with the assertion that the ST's pros you mention make him objectively better than the Operator. They just make him better at certain things, which depending on preferred playstile may not be enough to make up for the positive sides of the Operator. That some of those things are ones you might think the Operator should be best at is actually unimportant. sanguinemetaldawn said: RE the Tech Priest you are omitting the Tech Priests' massive Knowledges list, all of his cybernetics, implants and mechadendrites, and his MIU to communicate directly with the machine spirits of the vehicles, not to mention all of the TP only talents. And that is the part that I think is the kookiest. You have a guy here who can commune with machine spirits of a vehicle and is half-machine himself, yet a ST with the Intelligence Aptitude is better at Navigating the machine and Piloting it, than a Tech Priest or a Operator is, when the whole point of an Operator is to be good at piloting machines. I am omitting them quite on purpose, because they don't matter for the argument I was making. They help the Techpriest be better at some things, but do not help him be better at the things I that was pointing out at the Operator's strengths. The Mechadentrites will not help the Techpriest realize the guy in front of him is lying to him and is about to draw a weapon. The ability to communicate with machine spirits will not help him calm down a Catachan Barking Toad. None of the TP only talents will help him sneak into an enemy encampment, or allow him to then both drive the freshly hijacked Hellhound and fire its mainweapon without another PC present. Note: I do really like you analysis, so please don't take my critique personal. Some people, especially on these forum, seem contractually obliged to critizise any thread about looking at the numbers involved in the game as powergaming, min-maxing, 'rollplaying', and done by obvious WoW players. I don't want to seem like one of them to you! If one had to chose between ST and Operator, I would say the ST is the better choice, unless one really prefers the strengths of the Operator. Just, as soon as there are enough players interested in them that both being in the group is a choice, ST + Operator seems a much better choice than ST + ST. If the ST is Jason Bourne, the Operator is Macguyver. Because Only War is so much about combat, Bourne will normally be the better choice than Macguyver.
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