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Atheosis

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  1. MILLANDSON said: Kilbourne said: All Librarians, including Deathwatch Librarians undergo special training with the Ultramarines, and thus wear armor that is Ultramarine color based. Erm... where did you hear that? Because that's never been the case in anything I've ever read. Librarians just wear blue armour (not in Deathwatch though, other than kneepads and the like) to differentiate themselves from other Marines, just as Apothecaries usually wear white, Chaplains wear black, and Techmarines wear red. And it isn't all Librarians either, it's just Librarians from Codex Chapters. Non-Codex Chapters, as with most things, do whatever they feel like...
  2. HappyDaze said: MILLANDSON said: After all the current information repeatedly going "You must be male to become a Space Marine", they would have to go through a lot of background and piss off a lot of people to change that now, and for what? There's no gain in it for them to start allowing canon female Astartes. The gain would come if GW thought that a female SM army would sell minis. That's it. If they think they can make money off of it, they'll do it. If they think something won't make them money (like Squats), then it's doomed. GW's concern for their own canon is less extreme than that of some posters I've seen here, and certainly doesn't appear to be based upon loyalty to the line - it's loyalty to the money. Hell, I'd be willing to bet money that a sufficient bribe to one of the top GW writers would get them to include a canon tale of a group of female SMs in a White Dwarf article, even if there were no minis to be made. It won't happen. They aren't going to take a risk like that. Meanwhile they would be undercutting Sisters of Battle who have never been that popular (another reason they would be leary). Oh and yes they are mindful of their fluff. No they don't see it as sacrosanct, but they know certain things could hurt their customer base. I'm pretty sure they know female marines are one such move that could have such an effect. So I 'll repeat. There are never going to female marines in the canon.
  3. BaronIveagh said: I might point out that, the only canon article that space marines must be male came from the same Index Astartes series. (though by different authors). There's also that little detail of every single marine in every bit of fluff ever has been male...
  4. BaronIveagh said: HBMC will be declaring there are no FSM even if GW were to publish Codex: FSM and a whole line of minis to go with it. We've had this convo on other boards, I could swear, and there's just something about the idea that seems to push his buttons. What baffles me is that he never tries to refute the reasoning of people who suggest how to get around the issue (other then I think the female primarch one, he and kan did make a strong argument against that one) other then to claim it says it's impossible. Not: you're misinterpreting it and here's why... To be honest I'm starting to think he's taking the right approach as nothing can be said that will dissuade you from your bizarre notions regarding an issue that has been made very, very clear over and over for over twenty years... It really is as simple as he makes it sound. There are no canon female marines. There never will be canon female marines. Adding female marines to your game makes it non-canon. It's very simple. And there is nothing wrong with that. You can still have female marines. You can have female orks with pink skin if you want. It's your game.
  5. BaronIveagh said: SinisterCheshire said: BaronIveagh said: Peacekeeper_b said: So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex. Well, after the "Rocky Horror Roleplaying Session", the players strongly suggested that I adopt it as a new rule so that might never happen again. I approved it and have enforced it ever since. To give you some idea: they were playing Tzimisce. All of them. and, yes, it did end with everyone singing Science Fiction-Double Feature. They had gotten very drunk as the game went on. If they had fun doing it...is this really an issue? ( not that I endorse Rocky Horror in any form). Because when everyone sobered up and started to remember the things they did with thier characters, they were throughly squicked. Thus: "No Beer, No Fishnets" was added as the 13th Rule. Consider: They were playing Tzimisce in OWoD... Storytellers familer with Sabbat can tell you how bad this can get without Beer and without breaking character.... That's logical. Ban the cross-gender roleplaying, not the alcohol. It was clearly the cross-gender roleplaying...
  6. Fizzywig said: this was mentioned in one of the other threads,.... admittedly, trying to find the one idea on page 3 of a 25 page thread is not the most fun thing to do in the world... as to the NO XENOS TECH. the AdMEch has this group... Explorators? i think they are called, they are even a full RT careepr path.... and well.... they are all about going out and finding and researching the xenos tech. admech facilities pop up whenever necron ruins are found and im sure tere are labs workign away right now on finding out the secrets of tau weponry and tyranid bio-tech if only to know how to defeat it best. certainly some admech are all about only the STC templates, but the mechanicus is a large orginization with many of its different members persuing different goals with different means. If you want your skitarri to not have anything to do with the xenos tech he.she finds, more power to you, but mine, mine is going to gladly grab that pulse rifle and start shooting. (admittedly however, the idea of playing a dark angels librarian is more my style so no skitarii for me) Skitarii aren't researchers and they generally aren't going to violate the orthodoxy of the Machine Cult like a Techpriest might. By the way, Explorators are primarily supposed to seek out STCs. Xenos technology is officially forbidden. Techpriests fall into a Puritan/Radical spectrum much like Inquisitors, but Skitarii generally are going to follow the baseline Machine Cult beliefs, which involves the destruction and avoidance of xenos tech.
  7. BaronIveagh said: Fizzywig said: Just to add to the nerd-rage of this tread heres an idea, no female space marines, but you could play a feamle squat warlord in exo-armor I would laugh my ass off if this was allowed. Particularly since GW has been retconning squats hard. (See Gunheads) And: frankly, most of them have been unreasonable. Rather then posting and trying to actually debate my interpretation of this particular aspect of fluff, (21st founding being sufficiently different from 'standard' marines that a FSM chapter might not be impossible) most (some of them have made the attempt, but are unfortunately in the minority) have simply screamed that "YOU CAAAAAANT! Page x Says No Girls Allowed! IT'LL RUIN 40K FOREVAAAA!!!! You're Not Playing 40k if you allow THIS ABOMINATION!" I started on the FSM thing here because two of the female members of our group requested it (since I don't allow cross gender playing at my table. Too many games derailed by silliness) because they were tired of dying all the time as ascended DH characters. (the third has been playing a seriously OP psyker and has been keeping up with the Marines so long as she stays out of the line of fire.) And you say 'egalitarian' as though it were a bad thing... (And OWoD is Tuesdays, RT Sat and DW Sun) You don't allow cross-gender play? Well there goes whatever credibility you and your FSM arguments had in my eyes. At least your obstinate rationalization on the issue makes sense now, as you apparently painted yourself into a corner and needed to come up with some kind of solution...
  8. MILLANDSON said: Direach said: In the 40K fiction I've read (particularly 'Mechanicum' and 'Titanicus'), the skitarii are definitely not servitors. The Skitarii aren't, but Praetorians are Battle Servitors. However, an elite Skitarii would probably have enough genetic and bionic upgrades to make them pretty close to a Space Marine in power. Indeed. In terms of overall killing power elite Skitarii should be on-par with Space Marines. Some more militant Techpriests would be as well.
  9. Charmander said: Had to look those up According to the lexicanum, the elite of their number (Praetorians) fit somewhere between Imperial Guard stormtroopers and Space Marines, or alternately a counterpart to the Obliterator. The fluff is debated there as to whether or not they are human or servitor. Servitor woulnd't exactly make that interesting of a PC to me. The inclusion reasons are pretty sound though, they'd be all over recovering alien tech- though would the Deathwatch keep the tech for themselves and the Ordo Xenos or would they be willing to part with it or share? Sharing could make for an interesting joint operation kind of deal. They would actually be zealously against any recovery of xenos tech seeing as such things are seen as being devoid of the spirit of the Omnisiah and thus an abomination.
  10. FatPob said: hmm, though I applaud the effort above, I feel in game it would not work well, and after one tough fight the marines armour would be useless. Remeember that every time you reduce the AP on the marines you are effectively giving the enemy a +1 damage (up to +8/10). My only thought would be if the armour took a hit 3 times its ap in one hit would it lose a point of protection if you felt it was necessary. Myself, I doubt ever would use this as it's bookkeeping for bookkeeping's sake, It's not bookkeeping for bookkeeping's sake. It has a marked effect on the feel of the game, creating a more gritty experience and a sense of resource management in terms of their armor no longer being indestructible. Personally I like it, and it really captures the fluff of Space Marine combat (there's a reason a lot of the art and a lot of people's armies feature battle damage to armor). While I like it, I think it probably needs to be tweaked. I also tend to think a GM needs to be mindful of thowing too many truly dangerous combat encounters at the team during a mission as the attrition is going to take it's toll and progressively make each encounter more dangerous. It could turn into a meatgrinder very quickly if one isn't mindful.
  11. BaronIveagh said: Atheosis said: My point is that no one within Deathwatch would accept a female Space Marine, just as no one would accept a Marine that arrived with a third eye growing out of his forehead and tentacles for arms. Individual discretion isn't an issue in such a matter. In fact, after the "female Astartes" was forcibly detained, turned over to the Inquisition, and tortured for information, there would soon be an Inquisitorial inquiry instituted to hunt down her "Chapter" and destroy it for heresy against the Omnisiah (the tampering with the technology of Astartes geneseed being an afront to the Mechanicus) and the will of the Emperor (the Emperor's will being that Marines be male). Seriously that's how such a situation would be handled within canon. The Imperium is far from tolerant of such blatant transgressions against its traditions and sacred institutions. I'm not exagerating or making things up. If anything it might even be more harsh than I'm describing it. I don't understand why you don't get that. Except that is EXACTLY what happened in the 21st founding and only one of the chapters (Flame Falcons) was purged. Puritain elements of the Inquisition (!!!!) and the admech took it upon themselves to alter the sacred geneseed, since some cases creating entire new organs, not just tweeking things a bit. (Assuming that is, you consider Index Astartes canon. [WD 260]) And, the Relictors, despite being caught red handed consorting with daemons, were given three chances before they were excommunicated. What "exactly" happened? A Chapter was found that had Female Marines? Hardly. Let's reexamine the known chapters of the 21st founding which you really are misrepresenting in this thread. 1) Black Dragons: Have a serious mutation to the Ossmodula that causes serious mutations. Actively hide their mutations from outsiders and somehow continously provide normal geneseed to the Mechanicus. While their are rumors of their mutations and corruption there as yet remains no proof. They are not known to second marines to Deathwatch. 2) Fire Hawks: Never exhibited any abnormalities. Were lost in the Warp and eventually became the Legion of the Damned. 3) Lamenters: Have pristine geneseed exhibiting no mutations. However they seem to be cursed with terrible luck that has seen them the victim of many misfortunes. 4) Flame Falcons: Burst into flames in combat and were ultimately purged. 5) Minotaurs: No known mutations. 6) Sons of Antaeus: Metal-like bones. Very resilient in battle. Are not know to second Marines to Deathwatch. So we have one Chapter that has obvious mutations and another that has not-so obvious mutations. Neither is known to second marines to Deathwatch. In all likelihood, neither does (especially Black Dragons as they are pretty fringe in their behavior within the fluff). And in both cases their deviation from the norm isn't as drastic as female Astartes. What I described did not happen "exactly". Not even close. Whether or not they would be purged as quickly as I maintain can be argued. Whether or not they would be accepted into Deathwatch really can't be. It really is the equivalent of Deathwatch accepting a three-eyed marine with tentacle arms, or for that matter a Dragon Claw (a Black Dragon with adamantine sheathed bone blades coming out of his forearms). It just wouldn't happen.
  12. I'm really baffled why it's so hard to model the weapons in a way that is consistent with the fluff or with the other 40k Roleplay lines. These are professional game designers and I've written homebrew rules that were far more internally balanced and well thought out. In fact, I think I'm just going to finish my 40k adaptation of the Shadowrun system and be done with it. Then I don't have to deal with this nonsense or the other ridiculous design decisions FFG has made. I'm still pissed at them for including a mere six chapters, and then making the chapter rules completely non-modular and non-transparent so that custom chapter creation is a pain in the ass.
  13. BaronIveagh said: N0-1_H3r3 said: BaronIveagh said: "Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds." - Armada, Page 108. As I said, they don't navigate the warp like humans. I said nothing of the technology they use to travel between worlds, merely the nature of their navigation, which that quote notes as being peculiar. BaronIveagh said: I think that both the instantanious transfer across the galaxy without going to warp (DW, Page 289) and the arrival at a location that it would be otherwise impossible for them to reach might tip them off that there was something significant to this... Different, yes; significant... that's another matter entirely. The Kroot as a species aren't particularly widely travelled compared to anyone except the Tau, and may have no idea that the Warp Gate is either particularly unusual or that it conveys them across so vast a distance (to assume that anyone can accurately and easily pin-point their relative location in the galaxy upon emerging from the Warp is, IMO, a fairly big assumption, especially for any faction that lacks Navigators - it's not like the universe is signposted). As far as I'm concerned, the Kroot neither know nor care about how far they are from their home, nor are they particularly concerned about how they got there. The priority for them is finding something interesting to eat. Except that the kroot intend to return to Pech with thier fresh DNA and 'laden with wealth and trophies' (Into the Storm, page 86). This would indicate an interest in things beyond eating (they're not tyranids) and suggest that they're going to wonder: "Will it be quicker to go back through the gate, or go through the warp to get home?" As far as 'signposts in space' I can think of one, big, glowing one (admittedly it's 'Do Not Enter' or possibly 'Yield") that exists at this end of the Galaxy and does not exist at the other. The light from the Eye of Terror has only traveled for 10,000 light years. In fluff, human civilians bordering tau space seem to at least know the Eye exists. Thank You Ecclesiarchy. And if they didn't tell them, relax! According to Codex: Tau, page 17, it's not unknown for kroot to hire themselves out to the legions of chaos. And all of these are assuming that they've never fought in service to the T'au and met Gue’vesa. Curiosity is a basic trait of most predators. The reason is that on encountering something new, there's an advantage in checking to see if it's edible. Kroot do not interact with the soldiers of Imperium other than through the exchange of fire. Whatever the Kroot know or don't know means nothing in this context. The Kroot are a species virtually no Calixian Guardsman would even know existed, unless they were meant to actually be deployed against them, and they certainly wouldn't be exchanging rumors with them.
  14. BaronIveagh said: Atheosis said: The Cursed Founding may work for implementing female space marines into 40k (emphasis on 'may' as I tend to think it's as stretch even then). What it definitely doesn't do is provide a chapter that would second female marines to Deathwatch so that players could choose to play a fem-marine. A female or coed chapter would never be accepted by Deathwatch, or the rest of the Imperium for that matter, and would likely be seen as heretical and wiped out. The idea isn't a functional work-around regarding canon if that's what you're looking for. It just isn't. Sorry I have not noticed the Black Dragons purged for their obvious and well known mutations. (Though, granted, the Dark Angels suspect them to be traitors. Ironic, that) Frankly, the few occasions that Marine chapters have been purged have arisin from three reasons: Treason, Consorting with Daemons, and uncontrolled mutation (see Souldrinkers) And sometimes not even then (the Grey Slayers chapter was NOT excommunicated, despite their chaptermaster summoning Daemons from the warp...) Who gets into Deathwatch would seem to be entirely at the discretion of the Watchmaster. (I point you to Black Shields) The Black Dragons aren't in the habit of seconding marines to Deathwatch, and if they did they wouldn't second the battle brothers that have developed the bone growths. The degree of obvious geneseed tampering necessary to create female marines would make such a Chapter a priority target trust me. Female marines are as noticable a deviation from the accepted norm as Marines that catch on fire in battle (Fire Hawks) or marines who collect Chaos artifacts (Relictors). Such a Chapter would be declared traitors without hesitation, and I'm amazed that you don't get that. My point is that no one within Deathwatch would accept a female Space Marine, just as no one would accept a Marine that arrived with a third eye growing out of his forehead and tentacles for arms. Individual discretion isn't an issue in such a matter. In fact, after the "female Astartes" was forcibly detained, turned over to the Inquisition, and tortured for information, there would soon be an Inquisitorial inquiry instituted to hunt down her "Chapter" and destroy it for heresy against the Omnisiah (the tampering with the technology of Astartes geneseed being an afront to the Mechanicus) and the will of the Emperor (the Emperor's will being that Marines be male). Seriously that's how such a situation would be handled within canon. The Imperium is far from tolerant of such blatant transgressions against its traditions and sacred institutions. I'm not exagerating or making things up. If anything it might even be more harsh than I'm describing it. I don't understand why you don't get that.
  15. Wargamer said: Yeah, well we tend to play by the 'Rule of Cool' in our group and the guys weren't really serious when they suggested it but it still highlights the encumbrance problem. The real limiting factor in SM carrying capacity isn't, as I see it, a matter strength but of space. Those suits of power armour are pretty form fitting and marines don't wear webbing apart from the odd belt pouch or pistol holster. My ruling for the game I run is that a marine can carry the following: 1 Melee weapon or 2 handed ranged weapon 10 basic or pistol reloads (heavy weapon reload count as 2 basic or pistol) 6 assorted grenades 1 combat knife and 1 pistol other assorted kit (multi tools etc) this seems reasonable as the most a marine can cram into his armour in one go without needing some sort of external backpack or knapsack (like the backpack ammo supply). This isn't the first RPG with characters that are strong enough to carry absurd amounts of weight. The answer has always been pretty much exactly what you are describing: the use of volume as well as mass, and the use of common sense. If, for instance, a player thinks they can requisition a second ammo backpack for their heavy bolter because hauling it around would technically not exceed their carrying weight, they're being foolish and should be told so.
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