With respect, You missed one: 6. There will be plenty of ways to get ahold of these cards that don't include buying a raider, or spending anywhere near that amount of money. Why are people so afraid that there won't be tons of these cards to be bought off of friends/eBay/team cov.? 4 in the box means a lot of extras for a lot of people. I realize that this isn't super ideal for everyone, but it is far from being a **** move on FFGs part. The real problem is just too much hyperbole on everyone's part on these forums. There won't be plenty of ways. There will be the secondary market and no guarantee that the cards will be available or if they are that they will be priced fairly or in stock locally (important), as has been discussed. You cannot possibly argue from the basis of these assumptions. The only guaranteed way to acquire these cards is to buy the package, unless FFG does change things (which is extremely unlikely). These cards will also not be available in another package. Why would they be? Was C3PO? It's how they sell the epic ships. There is scant chance they will be prize support (and if they are it won't be for a very long time). Some cards appear in multiple expansions,but not with epic ships. I think it's wishful thinking at best.

But that is exactly what you have been doing this entire time...or at least how it looks to the rest of us. If you dont want to come off that way perhaps you should rephrase your complaint? The crux of your posts, as I have seen them, has been: I dont want to pay 70 pounds. They should release this in a cheaper form because that is what I want and that makes it a good business decision! So yes you have been complaining about the price. I know you are trying to frame it as a "I am not going to buy something I am gong to use" but you are failing in that attempt. If this new ship cost around the same as a normal ship or maybe the same as an aces pack I highly doubt you would be complaining about "having a ship you dont want." Now I know I am making some assumptions here and I do not know you...but this is the gist of what I have gotten from what you are saying. Yet complain they're unethically ripping you off. That's right. I want to support good decision making that benefits the community not just FFG. Do you not understand this? The current situation is deeply unfair to the players that have TIE advanced ships and want to use them. If that was changed I would support FFG. If that doesn't change then I won't suppor them because I have no desire to buy epic ships, let alone pay £70 for some cards for another ship entirely. Not sure why that's so contentious. Its contentious because of the way your argument comes off. You are coming off as a self entitled, whiny, crybaby who wants to moan and complain because a profit making enterprise released something in a format that YOU, yes YOU, and a few others dont like and dont want to pay for. You then come in and start whining to everyone else how this is a "bad business decision" (It is not), how it is price gouging and somehow wrong (it is not), and how it is unfair (fairness is irrelevant.) You dont like it? You dont want to support the decision? Then take everyones advice and dont buy it. No one said taking a stand for what is "right" is easy and lacking sacrifice. As I stated earlier you need to lose the "high horse" mentality you appear, to me, to have. There will be other avenues to buy this card elsewhere. You could cave and buy the ship and sell the stuff you dont need on said secondary market. (I believe I asked you before why those of us who buy the ship cant recoup some of the cost from those who dont want to buy the ship...you never answered me. But we all win that way.) The secondary market (small though it is) needs to get its pricing in line (which, judging by your responses in this thread, you will probably find proper pricing of that "unfair" as well.) If you decide you dont want to buy it that way or you dont have a friend who will split the cost with you fairly then maybe you need to just deal and realize your stand will cost you something. The question is are you willing to pay that cost? I dont know...thats a question only you can answer, and I'm honestly not interested in what you end up doing in the end. Your assertion that this is a bad move yet you will only buy from the company and no other avenue is a problem YOU and YOU alone face. Your self imposed limits are holding you back here. You have missed the point again: price is only a part of it insofar as £70 is the only way to get these cards. The point isn't that the Raider costs a lot of money, it's that I have no interest in buying it to get them. I'm not sure how I can make that clearer and I really don't want to have to labour the point. There is nothing self entitled about it at all and I'm afraid if you choose to read attitudes or draw conclusions of your own from what I have said then that is entirely on you. FFG has announced this product and I am expressing how I feel about it as a player-unfriendly decision.

Are you the CEO? Just a citizen of reality. Why are you so defensive? That wasn't defensive.

Are you? Obviously not, no.

There's no need for them to justify anything. The offer us a product that we can buy or not buy as we wish. If you don't find enough value in the product to buy it, that's on you, and requires no justification on their part. You are flat wrong about that. They have already offered prized cards in other sets to make them easier for people to get. So you will see that trend continue, that means cards like C-3PO or the Tie Advanced fix will show up in other packages down the road. Wow, so much cluelessness in one post. No it is not a bad decision. The Raider would of sold just fine on it's own, the sales of the other epic ships is proof enough of that. There was no need to put the Tie Advanced in there to make sure it sells. But including it will increase the sales, because doing so is what is know as added value. They are increasing the overall value of the package by adding in something people want, this is in no way a bad decision, it's a good one. It will improve the sales of this product, and that means it's a good decision. It may not be the most consumer friendly decision, but that doesn't make it a bad one, unless you're some sort of hardcore socialist who believes the whole point of company is to provide goods to us with no expectation of profit. My feeling on the matter is not contingent on whether they will respond or not. It isn't clueless at all. They could release these cards any number of ways. The success of their business is not dependent on the sale of epic ships which, if the shelves of my LGS are any indication, isn't all that. Arguing from the belief these cards cannot be sold to us any other way is both arrogant and ignorant.

Are you the CEO?

What was well said about it?

Yet complain they're unethically ripping you off. That's right. I want to support good decision making that benefits the community not just FFG. Do you not understand this? The current situation is deeply unfair to the players that have TIE advanced ships and want to use them. If that was changed I would support FFG. If that doesn't change then I won't suppor them because I have no desire to buy epic ships, let alone pay £70 for some cards for another ship entirely. Not sure why that's so contentious.

This will be £70 on top of whatever else comes out next year - including Wave 6 which, all in, is even more expensive. Also, people already own TIE Advanced ships. To argue that if they can't afford the cards that now make the ship viable they should stop buying video games or work extra shifts is massively missing the point.

Which is great because I don't think anyone has said that it is. However to blithely expect people to just spend £70 in order to get what they want is a little bit ignorant. Some people most certainly will not be able to afford this and it is for no one else to criticise them for it.

Well, we can split hairs over what people agree is the correct terminology. I'm not really interested in going down that rabbit hole because it's a distraction. I would like for FFG to justify this decision and explain why they cannot choose a different outlet for these vital upgrades. They won't, of course, because they never respond on these forums, which is disappointing. It is extremely unlikely they will release these cards elswhere as well since the whole point of including these cards, they know people will want, is to sell the Raider. This is most certainly a very bad decision. At best it suggests FFG has no confidence in selling big ships and with Armada round the corner i've no interest in big ships in x wing. I've certainly no desire to waste £70 on something that will rarely be used just to get vital upgrades. I would urge FFG to seriously reconsider.

People aren't complaining about the price.

there is no more guarantee of that possibility than the availability of the cards on eBay.

Or, surprisingly enough, some players want both. I know I do. Yes, that's what I said: some people want the raider.

Noone has disregarded the secondary market, even out of hand. It would be best if people actually read what was written instead of constructing straw men to argue against. I don't want to have to use the secondary market; imagine if there weren't enough Raiders on sale to the players because the stock had been snapped up not by actual players but by people looking to sell the components separately. Is that a good thing for the game and the community?

Or you get those cards on the secondary market for a sensible price rather than buying a Raider when you don't intend to use it (which is silly) or if you're not tournamenting them either proxy them or memorise what they do (which really isn't hard). That will be the only alternative unless FFG changes their mind, which isn't likely. The pro blem is that doesn't support the publisher nor the retailer. I don't want to proxy cards; that's a terrible way to play any game and, really, it just proves the point.

Noone is arguing that FFG don't know what they are doing. Noone has complained about a similar situation, because a similar situation hasn't existed before in x wing. THis is unique because it contains cards that fix a specific problem that shouldn't have existed - unless you assume the TIE advanced is balanced and didn't need these cards. This is different to C3PO for reasons i've already explained. Even Rebel Aces gave you new content and was much cheaper. Here you either want the Raider, which is fine, or you spend £70 to get a couple of cards to fix just one ship.

But that's just a massive straw man.

We can all come here and say whatever we like as long as it is done so with respect and without abuse. You have no business telling me that I can't accuse FFG of anything since you are not the forum moderator and I have not broken the rules. This is a deliberate decision made by FFG which is what makes it so cynical. I don't care for it, nor do I think it's fair on the community. Are you seriously going to tell me that FFG couldn't sell these cards any other way? They'd sell like hotcakes in an Aces pack.

So your contribution to the discussion is to laugh at people who don't want/can't afford the price tag? How mature of you. **** right! I have no pity for crybabies up here on our forum, knocking at FFG's backdoor with a mile long bottom lip. Call da po-lice there be a robber prowl'in round at da back dor! 911 911 911! :lol: I've no idea what your problem is, but noone is crying. Perhaps you should try being a bit more mature when you post.

By that logic the upgrades will always be pushing something out of the pack they are in. They could have included all sorts of stuff, but didn't. They choose these cards. The whole point of the Aces packs is that they offer alternate versions of established ships (such as the refit for the a wing), so that would have been an infinitely superior product. Telling people they can make do on ebay (assuming there are enough cards available for everyone that wants one) vastly misses the point. I want to support my FLGS and FFG, I do not want to support Mr Ebayer and his price gouging. If the Raider had completley new cards that would be fine. I don't even mind the new Advanced pilot cards. The issue is the upgrades that make it a playable ship. This is a cheap shot from a company that's done very well from this game. Is it so unreasonable that they reciprocate?

They are complaining because they don't want to have to buy one of the most expensive ships, only intended for a particularly and rarely used style of play, in order to get the cards that fix a ship they do use. I've no idea why that's hard to understand.

So your contribution to the discussion is to laugh at people who don't want/can't afford the price tag? How mature of you.

Part of an Aces package would have been perfectly acceptable. This is gouging the customer; worse it's taking loyal players/fans (whatever you want to call us) and exploiting them. It's poor practice and it needs to be called out and criticised wherever it's found. Unfortunately, and to put it bluntly, fanboys don't like that, and FFG has a lot of fanboys.

But people dont want to proxy; they want the option to support the company and their shops. Then they have to pay. It's as simple as that. If it's that important, then people will find a way to pay. If it's not, they won't. No one is being forced at gunpoint to open their wallets and give FFG money. It's a choice. By the way, since we surely have several months before it comes out, people can start saving $5-10 a week, and they'll have enough money to buy a copy. You're not listening: noone objects to buying the cards at all. Requiring that people instead support the secondary market is nonsensical. I don't want to 'save up', and i'm not a child who needs to be advised on how to spend his pocket money either thanks. I don't want the Raider. I've no interest in something that I will never use, that's too big to carry practically, just to acquire upgrades that fix bad game design. I have no problem at all with adding extra ships/upgrades to these packages. The existence of threepio is perfectly fine because it isn't something that fixes an existing problem. If i don't own him, i don't use him. That's not a problem. I own a TIE advanced, but in order for it to be balanced and playable i need to acquire these cards.