No one has to like the new game if they just don't like it and I have no qualms with that but what really bothers me is when they start actively trying to hurt its success by spreading nasty rumours and ugly gossip. Before Mr Pundit (of whom I had no former knowledge) decided to post his article (which I don't think is true at all, but even if it is true, I stand by what I'm going to say next), he should have thought of exactly what this kind of negative vibe-spreading actually achieves. If what he says is true and Rogue Trader isn't selling as well as was hoped for, that doesn't just mean that FFG is in trouble, it may well mean that the entire RPG business is in big trouble. Rogue Trader was highly anticipated and very well reviewed. In roleplay circles, I get the impression that it's very popular. If even a product like that is underselling, there's a good chance we are seeing the end of days of RPG development. It's clear that WFRP is an attempt towards widening the consumer base of RPGs, just like the new Dragon Age RPG developed by Green Ronin is. It is precisely these products, like them or not, that need to succeed if companies are to keep believing it's worth their effort to publish RPG material. Actively trying to hurt these products may indeed result in building up bad buzz (as intended by those who do it) which will indeed lead to the products' failure (again as intended), but what happens next? When companies see their last major expensive effort to reach a wider audience for RPG material, to finally gain some ground in today's videogame-infested world, fail miserably, what do you think they do? They pull the plug, not just on big experiments, but on all RPGs. They'll believe this form of entertainment is dead or dying or that only WotC has the clout and brand name to stick around. And they would probably be right. For that reason alone, even if you think WFRP3 looks like crap, please refrain from actively trying to see it fail. That would just be bad news for everyone, I'm sure. I know that I speak from the vantage point of someone who is in favour of the new edition and also that I am not well-versed in economics, but I think it's just a matter of common sense, really.

NezziR said: Peacekeeper_b said: And my final thought is the notion that the 2E system doesnt work or is not a playable as this new game and that the mechanicshad to be changed to save the game or make it profitable. That is a slap in the face to everyone who worked on Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader as they are 80% the same rules set. Did I miss something somewhere? I don't recall anyone from FFG saying that 2E didn't work and was unplayable or that the reason for the mechanics change was to make it more profitable. I also think, if I'm not mistaken, that DH and RT are going to carry on, business as usual. I'm not seeing a lot of slapping here (though that would make a great video, particularly if there were fish, animal bladders, or other moist floppy things involved). I also don't see anything wrong with trying to attract a larger crowd. As much as I like D&D, I think players are being cheated a little in that they are missing out on the phenomenal atmosphere of Warhammer. I hope you're right and that it wins lots of awards and it pulls lots of new player from other games so that they can play in the Warhammer world. I've spent my entire RPG career recruiting new players and telling them how great Warhammer is. I have a lot of stories to tell. I can't stop now NezziR said: Peacekeeper_b said: And my final thought is the notion that the 2E system doesnt work or is not a playable as this new game and that the mechanicshad to be changed to save the game or make it profitable. That is a slap in the face to everyone who worked on Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader as they are 80% the same rules set. Did I miss something somewhere? I don't recall anyone from FFG saying that 2E didn't work and was unplayable or that the reason for the mechanics change was to make it more profitable. I also think, if I'm not mistaken, that DH and RT are going to carry on, business as usual. I'm not seeing a lot of slapping here (though that would make a great video, particularly if there were fish, animal bladders, or other moist floppy things involved). I also don't see anything wrong with trying to attract a larger crowd. As much as I like D&D, I think players are being cheated a little in that they are missing out on the phenomenal atmosphere of Warhammer. I hope you're right and that it wins lots of awards and it pulls lots of new player from other games so that they can play in the Warhammer world. I've spent my entire RPG career recruiting new players and telling them how great Warhammer is. I have a lot of stories to tell. I can't stop now NezzIR, I'd like to state how pleasant it is to have someone with your sense of humour, relativity and friendliness on these boards. There is far too much venom and bile spewing in both directions and that's unfortunate since we are, after all, talking about something that should be a hobby, that should be fun and bring people together rather than divide them. Your posts are never aggressive or condescending and I admire that. On topic, as I've stated before, I'm impressed by the video. I know it doesn't actually explain anything about how the system works, but it does a great job of showing the vision and the passion behind the project. I'm running a Star Wars Saga Edition campaign right now and I'm currently trying to turn Force powers, skill uses and Feats into cards so that the players and I don't have to keep looking up their uses in the various books. It's quite a job to make those cards but I really think they're so much more convenient than having to look up everything in the books. For that reason alone, I think WFRP3 is a step in a direction that roleplaying games need to make to become more attractive and approachable for people who haven't already been playing them for years.

macd21 said: Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said: What about Star Wars? Just wondering, does anyone know how popular it is? Hard to say. I'd guess not very at the moment. Was reasonably popular while the films were being released. Are books still being released for it? Yes, new books are still being released for Saga edition. But I'm probably derailing the thread so I'll stop here:)

What about Star Wars? Just wondering, does anyone know how popular it is?

No Yes As soon as I can get it

Interesting ideas, both the Mission Impossible thing and the NPC sidekick. I assume it all depends on the nature of the campaign, which I plan to write myself anyway. The last and only pre-written campaign I ever ran was The Thousand Thrones and I got bored of all the constraints that such a big book puts on you.

And what about one player controlling two or three characters? It would be harder to roleplay but organisationally I think WFRP3 would be quite fit to do the job thanks to the skill cards etc. Perhaps a single character would die so many times it wouldn't be funny anymore (or it would be, but for the wrong reasons )

Thanks for your replies guys, and especially DagobahDave for your intriguing suggestions...

The guy at my FLGS is a real grognard but he's very positive about WFRP 3.

I've been wondering... Does anyone ever play a two-player RPG session? Just the GM and one PC? It would sure make it much easier for me to play a campaign with just my girlfriend as a single PC instead of getting all my friends together (most of whom are just beginning to start families and therefore don't have much time). I know we'd be missing out on the options the career sheet offers. I just wonder how well it would work. Has anyone tried it before?

I see your point and will have to agree with a lot of what you're saying. A Descent expansion would probably be a bad idea indeed. Still, I'd like it to be something more/else than just a book. Not that I don't like RPG books but there are billions of them and ultimately, there are more distinguished settings out there than Terrinoth. The one thing it that would make it stand out and that would make it feel like Descent would be lots of fiddly bits, miniatures and the same dice for combat. Simply because they're fun and nice to look at & play with. I know, I'm probably being terribly shallow here but I've been feeling for a while that RPGs need to expand into new territories, become more visually attractive and fun... without resorting to anything "electronic". Don't get me wrong, I love traditional RPGs and I would definitely love an expansive lore for Terrinoth

Frog said: I am not interested in thin books with no detailed history or lore. And the pics and writeups for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay look like that to me. The 4th Edition of Forgotten Realms also sucks as it is paper-thin on Lore/History unlike the 3.5 edition! It all depends on what will satisfy you of course, but don't think that WFRP doesn't have a detailed history or lore. It is in fact very, very rich and while the new box does indeed have thinner books, there are four of them. Two of those are almost entirely focused on background/lore and the rulebook also contains a fair amount of it. Just saying... you might like it, or not. That's another discussion of course.

"Tzeentch for a change" - Good one I can see what you mean and I'm inclined to agree, actually.

I can only speak for myself, of course, but this is the way I see it: I like "dark" by which I mean that evil is all around, a sense of dread pervades society as all seems to be on the brink of collapse. There is very little to hold on to so we must toil on even if we cannot see any hope in the foreseeable future that sort of thing. Corruption and the enemy within as major themes, the power of chaos seeming so insurmountable that many will join it out of fear and despair. I like that a lot, as long as there is still a small ray of light, a few good men and women willing to give it their best shot so maybe some day humanity can still thrive after all. What I don't like is an ultra-cynical, nihilistic world smeared in dung or something that resembles a naturalistic novel or a Belgian social-realist film (I'm a Belgian, I know what I'm talking about :-) ). I felt The Thousand Thrones, for example, had just a little bit too much of the latter at times. I still really liked many other aspects of that campaign, though. Setting the tone I want is a fine line to walk but I would describe it as "darkly heroic" rather than "not heroic". And heroic doesn't necessarily mean the characters have to be incredibly able, just that they're individuals, most likely quite flawed, who are willing to make a difference, who have some form of good will and courage. They can be obsessive, xenophobic, hedonistic or flawed in any way they like but I don't want them to be purely selfish, evil bastards. I just wouldn't enjoy a campaign like that. Does anyone else feel this way?

I would be very interested in this. In fact, this very topic has been brought up on the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Forums since the new edition of that game seems to have some Descent influences in it. I agree that Terrinoth is not an incredibly distinctive setting, at least so far, but... I think it could draw attention to itself and be distinctive in different ways. For one thing, the heroes and Overlord avatars of Descent could play various interesting roles in the lore which would be fun for fans of Descent. But more importantly, I think this game could draw attention to itself through its unique mechanics. It could incorporate strong boardgame elements straight from Descent. A lot of people are saying this about the new Warhammer already but I'm thinking of something more like Warhammer Quest with its light, smooth and fun roleplay elements, only with more options for social interactions and outdoor encounters. In fact, come to think of it, perhaps it would work best as an expansion to Descent: one that introduces roleplaying elements such as character interaction, fluff and the like and that changes the OL's role to that of GM... What do you guys think?

I assume there are duplicates but probably just enough for three players. For me personally, that is ideal as I prefer GM'ing with 3 players. I don't like large RPG groups at all. But I can see it being a problem for those who do like playing with more. Perhaps the adventurer's kit contains more cards? I wouldn't photocopy them, that would look so cheap amidst all the pretty stuff

One of my players recently had a charming encounter with a Nurgling in chapter V of The Thousand Thrones

If you look op Descent on www.boardgamegeek.com you can see lots of pictures of painted minis. I'd like to paint them myself but am feeling a bit daunted by this epic task

You can do all those things in the Star Wars roleplaying game, of course - but that would still be different from a Descent-type game and unfortunately (and illogically, in my opinion) the Star Wars RPG does use those randomly assorted collectible miniatures. I've had two years of great gaming with that game, though!

That's funny, the inability to discuss this game without senseless anti-version 3-attacks is the main reason I refrained from posting earlier, but I just cannot stand by and let people rubbish a new and different type of game before it's even been released :-) Besides... Since when is anyone a bad or lazy roleplayer because they don't like a particular dice system? So if I construct a great character and play it believably but I don't enjoy the dice system, I'm a bad roleplayer? I don't hate the d% system at all by the way, I like it better than some other systems but I, for one, do prefer a symbolic system over a numbers system because that's just the way my mind works. I guess that makes me an idiot who is not worthy of playing roleplaying games.

I think the difference between pointless raving and pointless bashing is that snide and cynical comments are not only pointless but they also sour the atmosphere for everyone else. You're not actually hurting anyone by blurting out "OMG this is great!" without thinking, but accusing the creators of a new game of being cynical money-grabbers who care nothing about the content of what they're making or worse, rapists of a beloved property... Well... That's just cruel. And hoping it will fail is very cruel. Who knows, maybe WFRP v.3 will indeed disappoint but that does not change the fact that it is in all likelihood something that a lot of people worked very hard on and invested a lot of effort and faith into. I'm pretty sure that everyone involved with the making of WFRP3 loves roleplaying games and loves Warhammer. They've decided to take the game in a whole new direction and they've done so in order to further the cause of roleplaying games -- whether this was a good idea or a bad one is beside my point. All I want to say is that at least they deserve credit for having a vision, taking a risk and working very hard. And I, for one, hope that they have produced a great game we will all enjoy, and which will not only succeed, but may actually prove to young people that there is more out there than video games and encourage them to play a game with their imagination.

Also, players will have boxes to store their own personal cards and stuff in, much like in the Descent: Road To Legend expansion. That way, they will have their skill cards etc. with them each session. No flipping required.

So far I've only managed to play through the first dungeon with me as the OL and my girlfriend controlling Runewitch Astarra and Andira Runehand. It was fun and I love the combat system; I only hope that further dungeons will provide a bit more traps & tricks and such.

Thanks for the tips! I don't expect Descent to be an RPG, but it does have a narrative quality, doesn't it? I mean, it does make the players feel like they're on an epic quest, I hope. The fact that the Overlord is a competitor is part of what made me want to buy this game. In my group, I'm that guy who buys everything and most of the time ends up being the GM. I enjoy GMing very much but sometimes I want a slice of the action too. We've had a lot of fun with Star Wars Miniatures as well, so tactical games certainly do appeal to our group. Anyway, I'll let you guys know what our experience was after the first session! Which should be this weekend if all goes well.

Hi everyone, I've recently ordered Descent and the expansion Road To Legend both at once because I felt so attracted to the innovations that expansion seems to introduce. I've played Warhammer Quest - the "Roleplay version" - with my friends for quite a few years now and while I love that game, it's getting quite worn and old and I felt we could use something new. Descent seems to be just that. I've also been GMing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay for the same group for a while so my friends are pretty used to "narrative gaming" if you will. Having an epic campaign to do, moving from city to city, encounters in the woods, all of these sound like a great way to get the group hooked right away. Here's my question: we've never played Descent before, so I wonder if it would be a good idea to jump straight into RtL right away. Or do you think we should try the vanilla version first for a while and then get moving with RtL?