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  1. cetiken said: I think that you're looking at it the wrong way. It's actually not hard at all to play a Deathwatch character in Dark Herasy. Nor is it challenging to have a Dark Herasy character in Deathwatch. What gets wonky is combining both systems together. Was that clear? Playing a character, and playing a campaign are not synonymous, and it's past the one-offs and the short series of adventures where the break down occurs. All of the 40K games have different acquisition models for gear. All of the 40K games have different token mechanics. What happens when my Space Marine buddies enter squad mode? All of the characters peak at different power levels. Which Psychic power mechanics should I use? The statistics for gear changes, and in some cases the overall power of the gear "slides", does my DH character use the DH Bolt Pistol, or the DW Bolt Pistol? In theory they all have different XP progression 'rates', DH characters max out far faster than DW characters. While I get what you're saying, the longer you play them together, the more integration points you have to take into account. Once you reach that point, the compatible nature of the games break down. I think it's a safe assumption to be a bit leery about seeing a similar thing happen to the Star Wars line.
  2. Venthrac said: Except that piracy is actually a serious and widespread issue that harms both the large and small RPG publisher alike, just as it harms home movie sales and video game sales. In the RPG industry at least, Paizo, Super Genius Games, Green Ronin, FFG (likely) and all the publishers who push product through sites like DriveThruRPG would probably disagree that releasing content on PDF = Gateway to Piracy. I know Paizo, definitely, in several conversations recognizes that while piracy is always an issue, whether it's print or digital, when you respect your customers and price products accordingly, you can still generate a VERY sustainable business. There's 'evidence' on both sides that support piracy being damaging on one hand, and beneficial in the long term on the other, whichever side someone takes is a personal choice. Regardless, the vast majority of gamers I know, prefer to read the books and game with the pdfs. Not having the PDFs option is a serious barrier to many, and I'm not going to fault them for that.
  3. GoblynByte said: You can make all of the main characters from the classic trilogy using only Edge of the Empire Beta. Which I think is kind of the point … If i can make all of the main characters, then why do I need another "CORE" rulebook to make them "better"? Core rule books imply a lot of things: dedicated supplements, gm screens, bestiaries, not to mention new sub-systems and rules tweaks. I don't trust FFG to stay at three, they didn't with 40K, and I get that that is my own personal issue to come to grips with. As mentioned in other threads, Cublice 7 pulled their multple core idea recognizing the same issue I am, and the 40K line is starting to feel like it's teetering on the edge of 'just too much' now too. Just asking philosophically, If I can already make a Jedi, why isn't a supplement good enough to make them better? What's the core book going to offer that a strong core rule set wouldn't? Setting? (Supplement). Advanced classes and options? (supplement) New vehicles and combat options? (supplement). Etc Etc.
  4. cetiken said: Its also incredibly hard to create material for some sort of omni-game that you guys are advocating. This part I disagree with. GMs and designers have been doing this in every version of the Star Wars RPG so far, and all of those games also went to length of describing in their GM sections how Star Wars was always about an ecclectic mix of characers coming together (A princess, a smuggler and a jedi walk into a bar…) and doing great things. It's been happening in D&D for decades (fighter, thief, cleric, wizard), and it happened in The Lord of the Rings, and the list goes on. The Knights of the Old Republic video game series did it too, as does the various Star Wars comics, as do the expanded universe novels. While there are certainly extremes, ie., you could always run an all politicians game, I personally feel that when you want to add a unique twist to the generally accepted setup, this is better done with supplements.
  5. I don't care if you want to spend money twice for the same thing. I care that the company is possibly releasing a "pretty much done" product under the auspice of it being a Beta, and charging for it, when they know full well that consumers will also buy the complete version. What you do with your own money is your own business.
  6. Venthrac said: If the beta book is close to the final version, there might be no need to buy the final version. Just saying'. Then what's the point of releasing it in the first place? If all "Beta Test" means is that for $30 I get to do FFG's proofreading for them… then the whole process has sunk to an all new low. Where's the Beta test feedback forum? The scheduled tests? The "stress testing"? Maybe it's coming, but if they charged $30 for a Beta, and the final version is just a spell check away, then that's a low blow.
  7. Unfortunately, the PDF issue is not unique in cases where a massive license like Star Wars is involved. Cubicle 7 seems to have run into a similar issue, and all of their PDFs have been pulled and all future PDFs on hold for their Tolkien based The One Ring RPG. While I recognize that LucasArts, Tolkien Estates/Enterprises, and others of their ilk, rely heavily on their partners to find a way to meet the needs of their fanbase within the bounds of the license, excluding PDFs from a 'gaming' license is just plain being out of touch, in my opinion.
  8. Malifer said: And the kicker is these aren't supplement books there full priced core rulebooks that will have stuff you already purchased. Which is where the 40K "trilogy" is starting to break down, and why a lot of people are questioning the need to have made Only War a seperate game. Personally as a 40K lifer, I'm really, really, hoping that Only War is the last one. The irritating part is that while a significant chunk of the game rules are the same, they tweak tiny little things (or big things like the way Psychic Powers work), which makes compatible easier said than done, and you're still shelling out $60+. What's doubly irritating is that to get a full bestiary or armoury you have to own all the settings - Tyranids and Eldar and several others are spread across all the lines, and tracking down a specfic creature can be a minor miracle sometimes, and quite often the systems (like vehicle combat) that could exist quiet happily across all the settings get two, three sometimes more variations. Much of the character creation, gear, skills and talents, combat rules, how to play, etc., sections are identical or close enough to probably feel the same if read back to back. For all intents and purposes the Dark Heresy system could have just been a generic RPG system with the other Deathwatch, Rogue Trader systems and and whatnot put out in supplements. While I think it's important to give FFG the benefit of the doubt, my faith is wobbly, and I'm not sure I believe that the lightsaber and force powers, or vehicle combat, or whatever will be the same by the time 2015 rolls around, and interchangeable is not what everyone thought it was. People can critiscise those of us who have concerns about how FFG is going to handle the line, and it's their right to do so, but there is building evidence elsewhere that this multiple release/core system has flaws, and there's very little word from FFG about how they are going to fix them.
  9. awayputurwpn said: Disingenuous and simplistic, eh? I've never had both of those descriptors applied to me in one forum post. I also don't think "disingenuous" is the right word. I was being sincere when I typed that Haha - fair enough. Likewise, while it could be interpreted as an insult to say simplistic, it was more in reference to the singular content of the post itself, and was not intended as a reflection of you, the individual. Clearly you're well spoken and fairly intelligent! awayputurwpn said: I offer my previous statement, reworded: If you don't like the "club" or agree with its purpose, don't join. It's not simplistic; it's sensible. If you're really not going to enjoy being a part of the club, don't pay your dues and don't get involved. There are several clubs that you might like more. Which I appreciate, but I think when it comes to a property like Star Wars, which while there are certainly sci-fi alternatives, there are few that scratch the same itch. awayputurwpn said: I could also flip that around: (speaking, once more, to a hypothetical detractor) If you like the "community" surrounding the "club," and you value the "emotional" connection, then you need to ask yourself if that "je ne sais quoi" is worth more than your prejudicial opinions regarding the edition. If so, then try and enjoy the new edition! Sadly that seems easier said than done… I only need to refer to every major D&D edition release, 40K release, and whatever else us passionate people seem to endlessly debate about. awayputurwpn said: I mean, if none of the extant Star Wars RPG systems are to your liking, then what RPG system do you like? Maybe the solution is to just port rules from one system over to the Star Wars universe. Which gets to my point about community. As I get older, travel more, have more responsibilities, etc., etc., I find that the vast majority of the people I know, or gamed with previously, get the VAST majority of their game time in either through organized play events at conventions or through organized play in their local store. These tradionally means if you want to play, you play the latest version.The point I'm trying to make is that, while it's easy to say "just play what you want", it can be frustrating when a new edition doesn't scratch an itch and you bow out for the next unforeseeable amount of time. But I also agree with your point that it's too early to tell, and without even a playtest out yet, most of us do not know how this actually feels to play yet. awayputurwpn said: Having discussion about how to improve or make houserules to an edition is one thing, but to bait the forums by accusing the game devs of money grubbing won't get you what you want. Personally, my issue with the 'money grubbing' is that the 40K line is starting to feel like that, and FFG "seems" to be moving towards that model. My issues with it: - a 3 core line, became 5, and who knows how more. - Compatible game systems does not mean interroperable and interchangeable. - Originality in those lines have taken a significant drop - Proofreading has become ATROCIOUS and the number of basic errors plaguing the later releases is embarassing. When your forum goers offer to proof read your product for free, you know you have a problem. In other words, my pesonal concerns about their ability to maintain multiple lines successfully without alienating a chunk of their population is based on my legacy as one of their fans, and I haven't even brought up the concerns about whether or not FFG has the rsources to maintain all of these RPG lines (WHFRP I'm looking at you in particular) simultaneously. But, to each their own. I'm here largely because I want to see how this all pans out before making my ultimate decision to jump on, or off, board. Being able to have a decent dialogue with multiple points of view is a good start.
  10. awayputurwpn said: 1) If you really don't like the look of the game, don't buy it. No one is reaching into your pockets or compelling you to pay for something you don't want. Realize that FFG can't please everyone at the same time, stop whining, and go play something else until they publish something you do like. While I do agree with you in theory, in the practical world, I'd dare say the sentiment you present takes a far too simplistic view on the world. There's a certain "je ne c'est quoi" in being able to participate in the rush of community and emotion that surrounds a new edition of a favorite game, or a game that has a long legacy between editions. There's people on these boards that have probably been waiting for an edition of Star Wars they like for longer than some of the other participants have been alive. Telling them to stop whining is a bit disengenuous. Game editions are like a little club, or a shared language. There's a certain comraderie in knowing that when you go to play "Star Wars" you're all going to understand what that means, and organized play is for some, the ultimate expression of that fact. It sucks when you don't feel like you're going to be a part of that community, for whatever reason. It sucks even more when someone says 'hey, maybe in 20 years they'll finally get around to making that game you like'. Just sayin'
  11. Replicant253 said: Well as you allude to it is what they started out with in 40K and it seems to have worked. Started with 'normal' humans in Dark Heresy as the lower power setting and built to Death Watch as the third release which introduced Space Marines. At the start a lot of 40k fans were frothing at the mouth about no Marines and were calling it commercial suicide not to start off with the 40K poster boys. The analogy is pretty strong, just change super human god like Marines to super spiritual warrior-monks. Personally Dark Heresy remains my favourite of the 40K settings. Interesting that they inherited this approach from Black Industries and ran with it. How different things may have been for both 40K and Star Wars without Black Industries. Oh don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the irony in my own concern. While it seems to be working for 40K, I wonder how well though, and for how long. Some may recall that Only War was originally a Dark Heresy supplement, and not a whole line, and there's certainly a lot of concern that it may be an indication of FFG finally jumping the proverbial 40K shark. For all intents and purposes it remains to be seen if Only War isn't actually an unofficial Dark Heresy 2.0 and releases for DH stop after Only War's release. The releases for the older materials has slowed down substantially, and even the new lines are starting to feel like they're dangerously close to rehashing the same materials/format (GM Screen, Player Supplement, 3 part adventure, Bestiary, random assortment of supplements). As someone who has the complete collection of all the 40K products I know first hand that it's no small feat to invest in a setting with multiple "Core lines", and I also know first hand that getting buy in for play of the entire collection is generally difficult with a single group. I also don't believe that FFG will hold themselves to the 3 Core Line format. The 40K line started as a trilogy as well, and was proclaimed as such across multiple media types by then head of the line Ross Watson. Look where the line is now. I, personally, don't need another 50+ book RPG line just because I'm a setting junkie and want all of the options. I suppose it's safe to say then, that while I have little concerns over the actual gameplay, I do have concerns that FFG has a cash cow on it's hands, and they will either intentionally, or accidentally, handle the line knowing that all it will take is for them to build it, and the fans will come.
  12. While making people wait to play a full "Force Users" campaign, ala Old Republic is probably fine in theory, particularly if you're of the "Space Marines ruin 40K RPGs vein", I do think it's going to cause a rift in the community. Why? Because according to the day 3 Gencon video, the full power of the force isn't officially available until 2015. So essentially an entire segment of the fan base is either forced to play a version of Star Wars they are not interested in, or they won't play at all, and they'll wait until the version they like comes out. Personally, I think that's unfortunate. There is enough 'canon' out there now where a core rulebook could have had the rules material required to run Star Wars in any era, and leveraged sourcebooks to enhance the experience of a specific era, much like Saga Edition did. Now, I get that rehashing that release model puts FFG in an awkward situation where they have fans who will have both versions in their collection, but I think ultimately it would have been a whole lot better than having people wait years to get a full ruleset. Having not seen the Beta rules ($40 plus exchange rate is a bit rich for me for a beta) I'm willing to be proven wrong on the flexiblity and completeness of the rules, but I'm not holding my breath.
  13. MILLANDSON said: This is basically the same as the printed version of the Pathfinder beta, and there wasn't all that much complaining about that, from what I remember. The PDF for the Pathfinder Alpha/Beta, if I recall though, was free, and the book was optional for those who prefered that option. Seems a shame. I know a lot of people who skipped the WotC era of Star Wars and kept with WEG editions waiting to see what future versions of Star Wars would look like. In the few people I've spoken to in that crowd now, the opinion seems to be that this feels like an unfortunate cash grab for what FFG knows is going to be a license to print money.
  14. GM Chris said: Plus, each core book will have numerous supplements for it. GM Chris as in D20 Radio/Order 66? This is my only real issue … while I certainly don't think it has harmed the 40K line to do the same, per se, I do think even that line is starting to really collapse under it's own weight if you're a setting junkie or collector. The 40K line was also supposed to be a "3 Core Game" line, and we're at what … 5 now? Each with the requisite GM screen, Bestiary, 3 part adventure, player supplement, etc. In a matter a few years that RPG line is upwards of like 50+ products. While it sounds appealing at first, I know from experience with the 40K line that following the line can get overwhelming when all 3 start pumping out supplements on a regular basis. Otherwise, sounds cool, and if you are the GM Chris I think you are, I can't wait to hear you guys dig into the game. Personally, the $30 Beta fee is a bit steep for me, but I'll be paying attention from the outside.
  15. Product suggestion: I'd really love some hard plastic, with graphics, card coffins. In particular, sized for each chapter pack release cycle (360 cards) with card sleeves. Bonus points for the coffins having art based on the chapter pack set.
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