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Erik Bauer

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  1. Within the V2 forum people is trying to recreate V3 strong points within the V2 gaming engine. That is: V3 of course has it's strong points and not just few of them... too bad they are countered by weak ones (namely marketing philosophy). So apparently people is trying to recreate them within V2. Why am I posting this there? Well to tell that it is not necessary to fall in the collectable spiral in order to play a narrative dice system with die pools and cool rules. Ah of course that there is no need of cards and tokens neither... everything can be done without fancy and expensive materials, believe me. I know I will not get any constructive answer to this thread but I feel it is right that the people know that because knowledge is freedom.
  2. commoner said: Well Eric, I gotta thank you for your thread-jacking here. This thread was supposed to be for people who had questions about how stuff worked in the game and it's instead turned into a debate over the validity of the core game set. Fantastic. Well since this thread has been derailed, I might as well take it right over that cliff. Waaaaaagh. Rally, you could believe it or not I'm not used to thread-jacking. But in this case I feel something is wrong and I have to clear up my mind about it. Sorry it had to happen in your thread. BTW wise readers can use this debate to answer what is in my opinion the key question about V3: Is it worth the investment? Is the new gaming system worth a spiral of "you have to buy this in order to play things you could have played out of the basic box if it had been done with V2 philosophy? commoner said: Anyway, I have to say it for the billionth time, yes you'll have to buy more stuff. Yes, it doesn't cover all that the 2e core covers. But that's like someone complaining the 2e core doesn't cover vampires, Bretonnia, or Skaven. It's also like saying the 3e core should also cover Bretonnia, vampires, and Skaven because, after all, there is a 2e book out for them already as well. You see my point? Furthermore, did you ever buy any other suppliment for 2e? Have you ever bought any suppliment period? Because if you have, then you're shooting your entire complaint in the foot. You buy secondary products, yet you refuse to do so with this game. Fantastic. Honest answer? I DO have plenty of V1 and V2 supplements, almost everything that has been printed. But that is not my point... Re-reading my previous posts will enlight your mind on the fact that it was a "Let's pretend I do not have any supplements" situation. commoner said: Really, I think the issue here is how you feel personally slighted that you're not going to be able to keep your four year running campaign going under 3e. Well, if you really think about it 4 years is a long time and no matter what you did, you would had to have taken time to convert over to this edition anyway, because not everything lines up squarely. If you're willing to do that work, just go a little further and make up the career stuff you need to play and be patient for the rest. Especially since you level slowly, it'll give time for the support products to come out and all will be squared away. Or, as many people have said, do you even have an intention to buy? If not, a whole lot of people are wasting their time trying to highlight the points while you stick to your guns over how your four year campaign can't make the cross, perfectly. I ran a game for twelve years, still going from time to time, and it's crossed over so many systems it's not even funny, many of which did not even support the core powers, etc. All my players and I had to do was spend a couple of hours one week, tweaking things, and the game ran perfectly smoothly. You could do the same. You could start right now (as I have been doing with 3e) tweaking things in your head to match the needs you have and be ready to start adapting those ideas to the system once 3e comes out. You could tell me you don't have the time, but you sure seem to have time to come here and banter over how your needs aren't being met. Here again... my examples were meand to put in light my point but you are starring at the finger, loosing the beauty of the full moon I'm pointing it at. Let's try to explain it again: V3 has come out as a successor, substitute and an evolution of V2, right? No trouble here. Easy to understand. Now, what defines a successor, evolution and substitute? A good guess is something that does the same things in a different, hopefully better, way. Now let's face the gaming possibilities V2 Basic book offered for a price of roughly 50€. Roughly 60 basic careers and 54 Advanced careers. (I'm taking careers as an example because I feel them as one of the core points of WFRP), giving us quite a lot of freedom and possibilities. I can start a low level campaign aswell as high level campaign with the basic book. In fact I do have wizard and priest careers ranging from apprentice to Lord, from Initiate to Arch Priest. Talking about wizardry and religion, other two key points of WFRP, with V2's basic handbook I can choose from the entire spectrum of magic as each school has it's own spells and rules. Same thing for religion, one can play priests from any religion as there are rules and spells from any of them. Oh and there is a minimum background for both magic schools and religions aswell. Now let's talk about V3 Basic Box. Many careers are not there, restricting player's choices: he can't play a priest that is not from the three religions in the basic set, he can't either be a wizard that is not from the three schools that are in the basic set. A GM obviously can't start a high level campaing unless he plans not having high level wizards or priests within the party, thus limiting the options he would have had in V2. Oh, I agree with you, V2 had lots of expansions, but do you see? Realms of Sorcery is not mandatory in order to play the full spectrum of wizards, neither Tome of Salvation is mandatory in order to play the full spectrum of priests. With V3 you are forced to buy the equivalent expansions in order to play the full spectrum of wizards and priests. With V2 you could not play Skavens and Vampyres without the appropriate expansions and that it's true, but not a limitation: V2 is a sequel of V1 that did not allow it too. V2 was a good sequel because it's basic book contained the same thing as V1 did but renewed. What about V3? Can't say the same thing. commoner said: Last, but certainly not least, support products are good because they sell more games. Selling more games means a company can stay in business. A company staying in business means we get more games. More games means we have more fun. So absolutely it's a marketing scheme, but should you crucify them for it? No. Not all businesses are Microsoft and the pennies roleplaying pulls in proves they are more of a labor of love than profit. But the writers still need to eat, feed their children, buy health care (in the US), have some toilet paper to wipe their a** with, so all in all, it's probably best for them to sell products in a way they can keep eating so they can keep writing. You see you could go build them a chicken coup and grow them chickens so they can have eggs and tasty soups just so they can write gaming books you love to play when you're done screwing around with chickens, but isn't money just easier instead? It could be worse. You could be getting price-raped on a car after your transmission just blew out so you had to buy one, even though, about ten years from now, cars won't even run on oil and you know that, but you're buying one anyway at a 60% mark up knowing full **** well, in ten years, gas is going to be about ten bucks a gallon here in the states because most people won't be using it anymore and the "costs of the product" will be too high. Or every time you pump that gas at an extremely high price and somebody on the news is telling you the mark up is due to a shortage, just that morning you read that exxon made record breaking profits. Honestly I don't know why people hate buying things to support what they love when they're so willing to pump money down McDonalds, and Microsofts, and Car Companies, and Drug Companies bloated ceo-******-bags without blinking a **** eye. Or, better yet, they'll go to the movie theatre and give 2012, or wait Jumper their ten bucks without second thought (or reading the absolutely horrible reviews) that the value of the product they're purchasing is piss. Nope. Be damned they want to view a motion picture and that trailer sure was flashy. And believe you me, 3e has gotten way, way, way better reviews than 2012 has and 2012 is the largest grossing movie since summer over the weekend even though, everyone, and I mean everyone, thinks the film made to make it would have been better put to use wiping Michael Bay's ass. I know suppor products allow companies to sell more and thus to live more. That's why I bought more or less everything I found about V2: I was free to choose if to buy them or not, I could have run my campaign without but I knew it would have been better with them. V3 in that aspect is more about forcing players and GMs to buy things that's the similarity with collectionable games that i totally dislike. commoner said: So really Eric, get over it or get off it or do whatever you need to do to make up your mind. 3e is fantastic....period. I admit there are things I still love about 2e and 3e will never replace, there are flaws as well with 3e. But really it's apple and oranges, or looking at a computer made in the eighties (with the big green font of doom) compared to what we have now. I'm a computer guy myself and I do know well the evolution from 8Bit computers with 4kb of ram and tape loaders up to today's Quad Cores with 4Gb of ram and Terabyte Hard disk drives. But you know what? Computer always come more powerful, more capable and with more options that the previous incarnations. V3 is like having to buy a custom FFG computer, at the same price of a complete one, with just a mouse and an HDD. You want to write texts? Buy a custom FFG made keyborad! Want to install games? Buy our own custom FFG made CD-Rom drive. Want to listen to music? Buy our custom FFG soundcard! At the end of the day you spent the double to have the same thing of a normal computer. V3 is fantastic... period. Mmmm.... quite a strong point here don't you think? You're going to absolutes here, removing withi your sentence my freedom to think diversely. I can tell V3 has a good gaming system, yes, but is it worth the risk of having to collect lots and lots of components just to have the same things basic V2 had by default? Now that is a question we have to answer for V3 newbies!
  3. dvang said: While 3e does have a few fewer things than v2 ... www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp There is actually more information overall in the 3e books total than the v2 book. See my pics, and thumb through both the v2 and all the 3e books. So, yeah, if you play every week and force your group to advance as quickly as possible, you will probably 'cap out' the Core Set before the rest of the advanced careers get released. Yes, you'll need to buy some expansions that contain some of these advanced careers. Would it have been nice if they included them in the Core Set? Sure. One thing to keep in mind, that the careers of Wizards and Priests, for example, are different each rank. Unlike v1/v2, where Wizard 1-4 are the same career just with different "levels". In 3e, they will be customizing each rank of wizard with some different available advances in skills, actions, etc. I'm just saying. For me, it's not really that big a deal. I was already going to buy that WFRP Companion/Tome of Salvation/etc expansion. Now, it also comes with the advanced careers for wizards/priests. Woohoo, bonus! <rant>Got it... that's the kind of answers that make me think if the answerer really cared about the core of my topic before answering like an advertisement</rant>. I'm not minding overall information, I've seen your pics and yes the three books stacked are the same thickness ov V2 main book. We know that already. It's not a matter of forcing my gaming group to play every week (in fact it is them to force me GMing every week!) or to give them lots of advances to rush careers. Actually my campaign is running since 4 years and they are entering in the 2° advanced so maybe we have the opposite in my group. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. My point is: in V3 starter box you have, for a higer price, less gaming options, less coverage of the careers spectrum than you had in V2 and that is limiting my gaming options quite much. If I pick V3 I decide to barter my freedom of playing a whole set of campaigns without buying anything else than a starter set. I did it with V1, 25€ in the '95 and ran a 9 year long campaing bringing my players to 4th advanced career without the need of any expansions. The same thing I could do with V2. What about V3? I can't. I HAVE to buy more expansions or to write down them by myself. That's the point. Now let's go to counter some of your weaky weak points 1)You state that in V1-V2 wizards from Apprentice to Wizard Lord are the very same career just with different levels... wrong game, that is D&D. In WFRP, my dear friend, class concept does not exists. They are different careers with their own advance scheme, skills and talents. Believe me, a Magister is much more than a 3rd level apprentice! 2)Quoting you "For me, it's not really that big a deal. I was already going to buy that WFRP Companion/Tome of Salvation/etc expansion. Now, it also comes with the advanced careers for wizards/priests. Woohoo, bonus!" I have to correct you, your last sentence should have been "[...]Woohoo, getting where V2 Basic Book already were!". You see, all those advanced careers were within V2 core book, no need to buy Realms of Sorcery or Tome of Salvation for playing them.
  4. NezziR said: Erik Bauer said: Ok. That's what I wanted to hear. Now my even little possibilities to purchase that thing are completely gone. FFG can keep my copy in the warehouse. LOL - you come in here every day to say that. You've said, "I'm not buying this thing!" like 50 times. We get it man - it's not for you Oh, I did miss that answer... you know what? I continue to reiterate this opinion because i'd REALLY like V3 being of my tastes and while some of it is (Some rules and solutions seem very smart and innovative, WFRP speaking), there is something behind (read: marketing philosophy) that really stops me from purchasing it.
  5. commoner said: NewTroski said: I really don't get how it's that different from v2, or any other RPG. There's going to be additional sourcebooks that provide additional detail. If you want to go somewhere in your campaign that isn't explicitly covered in the core set/book, you have two options: buy the product that covers this area, or make it up yourself based on whatever info you have. If I want to run a v2 game in Kislev, I have two options: get the Kislev book, or make it up myself. It [is/will be] the same for v3. True, there's not the same information in the core set as v2, but it looks like there's more detail on some things. If I was running a long term campaign with JUST the v2 rulebook, I would have to make up a lot of stuff myself. I don't see how v3 is going to be much different in this regard. There aren't as many schools of magic detailed, but there's a more detailed bestiary. So in v3 I would have to make up more spells whereas in v2 I would have to make up more creatures. (Please note, I haven't actually seen v3 yet, I'm basing this off of what I've read.) I also don't get the losing cards/components thing. Am I really the only one that is careful with my things? I still have childhood toys with all the original pieces (my Galvatron still lights up and makes noise!). I am planning on getting sleeves for all the cards in the new set, and putting the other things in clear page folders - I started doing this a long time ago for Battletech record sheets so I could use dry erase markers rather than pencils, works great. Before somebody asks, the people in my gaming group probably don't have quite as high a standard as me, but they do have respect for other people's belongings and wishes. So if I tell them that my things are to be handled in a certain way, they will honor my request. Couldn't have said that better myself. It's not like v2 didn't also have a Wizard tome, a priest tome, that brought in all new forms of magical components. The core is a base system, then kit out the way you want. Personally, I never liked the huge amount of detail concentrated on spells in a core because it seemed to overshadow (and is never well balanced) compared to everything else in the game. I'd rather see it done properly without a bunch of reprinted spells in the suppliment as the v2 did and just concentrate with the core, giving us a tour for the setting, then detailing it out later. I really don't get the losing thing either! Find a storage solution and get on with it. Those round, plastic bead tins work great for Arkham (I highly recommend them by the way, makes set up way, way faster) and they'd work great for these chippies as well. I have yet to lose an Arkham chip as well and we play in a house with 6 cats. Wow that sounds bitchy and was not intended as a so nyahhh! Ok... let's try to put it in other words... Let's put that I've got just V2 Handbook because I've very few money to spend, and I'm GMing a campaign since 3 years. My Pcs are quite high level and differentiate. Let's say among them I've got a Jade Magister and an Annointed priest of Ulric... Of course it is a simulated situation, but we are roleplayers and we should not have problems pretending it real for a moment. Now I go into the GDR shop and I see the new-shiny V3 Box, I fall in love for the quality of the product and want to GM my campaign converting it from V2 to V3... I try to evaluate if V3 is for me... when I discover that in the basic box there is enough material for running wizards up to Journeyman and that Jade lore is left for future expansions. Same thing for Priests... I'm a moneyless GM and the basic box alone costs 100$ at the shop! My first reaction would be to turn back and go out of the shop without V3. My example is sort of an extreme situation but I think it serves well it's purpose: creating the basis for my question "Why on Earth is V3 Basic box containing less gaming material and providing less gaming opportunities than V2 Basic book other than for an overpushed marketing philosophy?" Now, maybe someone can give me a good explanation for this, maybe some FFG staff reading my posts (I'm sure they do read us). I'm not accusing anybody, I just want to be assured that this product is not a collectionable roleplaying game before buying it, as I'm totally against (You have to buy that expansion in order to play this) products. PS: the "do yourself the careers you do not find in the base product" answers are not valid for two main reasons 1)I pay A LOT for the basic box, so I ask from it to provide me at least what I found in V2 basic book 2)With all the cards, tokens, actions, custom career sheets and the like, self producing careers is no more matter of putting down an advance scheme but a more demanding job so GMs with not much free time are in fact out of this (mmm I see a pattern here....)
  6. Necrozius said: Hellebore said: @Necrozius, if they wanted to have the cooldown reflect the effort, they could have done many things other than simply 'it takes X many rounds to use power again'. For example, I previously mentioned a fatigue cost of these abilities. If your character can only sustain 6 fatigue and the ability costs 3 fatigue, then it can only be used twice before resting (or even less if you suffer fatigue from other areas). Another idea would be the number of rounds required to make the attack again is =current fatigue level (afaik you gain Fatigue as you go), thus the more tired a character is the longer it takes for them to psyche themselves up for the next big hit . These create a similar game balancing effect (that is, a 'cooldown/x times a day' mechanic) that also blend into the story in a logical manner. This is what I think is the problem with a lot of rules these days in RPGs, they favour abstraction over simulation, despite the fact that you can achieve similar results in both and simulation has the added bonus of working within the story as well. So to me, it is simply the most logical to have rules that reflect the story and work as game mechanics, you shouldn't have to sacrifice one for the other. Especially in an RPG. Interesting. Now I have a better idea of what you mean. I guess that my difficulty with this debate is that, from my perspective, both systems (recharge time vs. automatic fatigue poitns) achieve the same end results. Whereas with the recharge system you allow the player to pace himself and take a bit of time to recover from such strenuous actions, while still giving them a RAW way to speed up that process by taking fatigue points or spending fortune. In the end, I don't see much a difference except that there's less book keeping with your optional rule (which is awesome, by the way). Nice and interesting reading indeed... I loved Hellbore explanation too, that puts things into perspective. And also gived me some ideas: Hellbore, do you mind if I try houseruling your musing for my V2.5? I'll post them as soon as I've written them down.
  7. NewTroski said: Erik Bauer said: Well, seems that someone actually reads my posts properly before answering them. To those that responded V3 marketing philosophy is equal to V2 one, try re reading this post... do you still think the same? And now for something completely different... Nope, it's right back to the condescending attitude and thinly veiled insults. No veiled insults... I just stated that because I sometime have the impression that some people posts answers to my posts without full reading them. In fact most answers to my cricicism tend to run around my argument rather than confronting with it... a thing that can get frustrating over time. And your answer makes no difference...
  8. Loswaith said: Interesting point Erik has. How long a campaign do you think you can get before you HAVE to buy an expansion to handle, how far can the mechanics take you. Is there a third tier (advanced career from advanced) equivlent powered careers or greater? How big can the group get before you need to get more stuff? In 2nd ed you could play a game as long as you like with as many as you like and never NEED to get anything else, all the mechanics were in that one book. Well, seems that someone actually reads my posts properly before answering them. To those that responded V3 marketing philosophy is equal to V2 one, try re reading this post... do you still think the same?
  9. Navar said: Erik Bauer said: Nope... my concern is not the fact things are missing... my concern is about "Things are missing in the Basic Box so even if you have to pay 60€ for it you'll have to buy other expansions in order to have the same material you could have with V1 - V2 Handbook for much less". My concern is the philosophy behind it... and that will not change in a couple of years for sure. That is most probably my last post in V3 forums, so goodbye to everyone that will not follow V2 forums. Be careful not to let the door hit you on the way out. It tends to do that. Be sure my back is well guarded... maybe we will see again when the "Buy'Omatic" philosophy will start to kick in.
  10. dvang said: <shrug> Can't get the fatigue/stress, stance meter, dice pool, action cards in v2. So 3e has "basic" things v2 doesn't. 3e also has information on Wood Elves, and a lot more information, IMO, on the colleges of magic and the religions and how to play those types of PCs than the v2 book (for example). The information is different, and sometimes about different things, but there still seems to me to be about the same amount of info overall between the two basic books. Anyway, I'm sorry you just can't see all the stuff that is in 3e, and instead are still picking at what isn't. (Good thing you didn't do that when v2 came out). WFRP v2 is still an excellent game, so enjoy and I hope you try back later. That's exactly my own concern. V3 trades freedom for tools. What do I mean with that? Simply enough: In V2 you could decide to play a low level campaign aswell as a high level campaign. You had 8 + 2 = 10 magic schools with each one having it's own different spells, almost the same number of divine lores with different spells. Enough background material to start playing wizards and priests. EVERYTHING needed to run a long term campaign with more than 5 players was included within the basic book, the other books were additions to an already complete game. Realms of Sorcery added details to magic and schools, even added spells. But you did not need it to run a campaing with a 4th level player/NPC. Same thing could be told for Tome of Salvation. Moreover, not only, with the same rulebook you could GM 3 different campaigns to 3 different gaming groups without having them to buy extra materials, without fear of leaving-loosing cards-markers. I'm not just picking at what is'nt... if you read carefully my "Damned if you do - Damned if you don't" post, you'll see that I recognize several strong points in V3, but the bad ones are just too bad for my point of view, first of all that Modular/Collectable philosophy FFG kicked in. What I'm talking about? Here it is: You want to play a high level campaign/convert your ongoing V2 campaign to V3? You have to pay for the Basic Box AND for the expansions. You want to play a Jade Wizard? Ok, go to the shop and buy the appropriate expansion! You want to play in my campaign? Oh, sorry, we are already 4 players! Basic material is yes enough for everybody but a 5th player will require more sharing and bookkeeping so maybe it's better if you buy your player's kit. Long story short, everything in V3 screams out "Collectionable"! The fact you need cards to play, the fact "some" careers, included in V1 and V2 books, are missing, everything lends to the fact that a gaming group wishing to start a V3 campaing will HAVE to think it as a continuous money investment. My keyword is HAVE. Most V1-V2 gaming groups would anyway do it, but you see, being pushed buying things is not my view of an hobby. I can see the point of view of FFG, they are a company and need to make money... but that philosophy is just too much for me and I'm not surely going to promote it in any way.
  11. Nope... my concern is not the fact things are missing... my concern is about "Things are missing in the Basic Box so even if you have to pay 60€ for it you'll have to buy other expansions in order to have the same material you could have with V1 - V2 Handbook for much less". My concern is the philosophy behind it... and that will not change in a couple of years for sure. That is most probably my last post in V3 forums, so goodbye to everyone that will not follow V2 forums.
  12. Ok. That's what I wanted to hear. Now my even little possibilities to purchase that thing are completely gone. FFG can keep my copy in the warehouse.
  13. Erik Bauer said: dvang said: No rituals, yet, as far as I can tell. There are a set of "basic" generic spells, plus each college has their own set of spell cards. Spell cards are ranked, with higher ranked spells costing more power and having better effects. There is information about hedge wizards, dark magic, Dhar, Necromancy, etc. Remember, though, this is the Core Set. So, like v2, a lot of the detailed information will probably need to wait until the "Realms of Sorcery" and "Tome of Corruption" for 3e get produced. Are there, within the basic box, rules for Necromancy, Hedge and Chaos magic to build NPCs or evil Pcs or do we have to wait for the respective expansions? Funnily enough threads that talk about the strong point are full of demo GMs posts, while these questions find themselves lost under tons of other threads. Is there someone that red the books of the Start Box answer this question please?
  14. HedgeWizard said: Erik Bauer said: Honestly speaking and after reading news, contents, marketing strategy and all? To me, Yes. I know from my own case and a handful of others the reasons we say yes are: We are interested in trying the game before passing judgement. Maybe we won't like every decision, but there could be gems in there to incorporate into our v2 games. We are fortunate to have an income that allows us to try things on our own terms. And we're not going to be terribly upset if the game ends up being not for us. I do know there could be hidden gems within this new edition and I already started yesterday evening to discuss their integration in V2 with my gaming group. As for my anger, I feel and express it because I feel betrayed by FFG. I've bought anything possible from V1 and V2, I GM almost nothing but WFRP since 1996 as I believed both it's format, setting and rules were some of the best things we could have on the RPG market (and I DO have played lots of other systems and settings). Then I discovered that they did not just completely scratch and redo the whole gaming system but also decided to follow a "Collectionable Game" marketing strategy. Those two things in my mind have conseguences and namely: - V3 Material won't be rulewise compatible with V2 to a much larger extent. So let's forget to have new careers, rules and dedicated expansions. I know conversion will still be possible, but this days i lack time to do them. - If V3 results in a commercial success, thing that I do fear will happen, more and more gaming companies will choose this marketing strategy to sell their products and in a decade we will be all remembering the past days when with a single handbook you could run year long campaigns ranging from paesants to 4 Level wizards power level.
  15. NezziR said: I heart Sunatet. That was no marketing spiel or fanboi rant. That was honest, from the heart sentiment. I feel much the same way. Don't you think that also opposite toughts can be as honest and heartbound, just...well...opposite?
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