Wow! did the French Nationals have a better tournout than GenCon this year? It's great to hear the game is still doing well in France. Will any of the Stark players in the top 8 be posting deck lists? Stark doesn't seem to be doing nearly that well on this side of the Atlantic. Congrats to all the winners.

I was commenting more on the difference in opinion between "casual" and "competetive" decks. It seemed to me that the post Black Friday V analysis from the DC meta claimed that Lanni kneel, Targ burn, and Greyjoy hand destruction were the only 3 real "competetive" builds. I think other metas would argue that there are other "competetive" builds, therefore "competetive" is being defined differently from meta to meta. So what DC considers a "casual" build may be considered a "competetive" build in the NYC or DE/PA metas. Until there are more frequent inter meta events, I'm not sure the greater community will come to a concensus on the definitions of "casual" and "competetive". For the Record, I think Greyjoy is still a top 3 house, and probably number 2. Targ does have too many moving parts so that the player must either play targ incessantly to think of the parts as 2nd nature or risk making many mistakes during the game. Greyjoy is a little more straightforward. But I would point to both Targ burn and Greyjoy hand destruction as examples of decks being defined by their player. The average player will not pick up either deck and make them work well. A really good player will take those decks and make them work great.

CaseyVa said: I know I can be a little caustic, it's part of my charm, but I hate the word "casual". It's a word I hear a lot in 40k, a game I play much more competitively than AGoT, and usually "casual" is the word people use to explain why they lost and to try to make the person that beat them feel bad for taking something effective. I'm sorry "casual" has that meaning for you. While I would agree that casual often means "not perfectly honed" or "not the optimal build", I don't see why that would have to lead to making the person who beat them feel bad. As someone who brought a "casual" deck to Black Friday, I would say that it would explain why I lost to better decks that were better built and better played. But it was my fault that I went 1-3 with a bye. No need for players with better decks to feel bad that they played a better deck in a better way. If you went to win, you should take the optimal build that gives you the best chance to win. If you went to have fun playing games with your friends you rarely see, bring a deck you enjoy playing and have fun with your friends. I think the problem comes that different players would define whay is "casual" and what is "competetive" very differently. And right now I don't know that there are enough inter meta events to determine those definitions to everyone's satisfaction. Lanni kneel is obviously competetive. But is Greyjoy rush competetive? Greyjoy hand control? Targ burn? Bara rush? Bara control? I think these questions are answered differently meta to meta. How much is deck and how much is player? I'm not sure there is a universal concensus on these questions and until there is we may not all be speaking the same language on the Greater Metagame.

Greyjoy Chris said: As a note on this topic. in a field of almost 6 greyjoys at Black Friday, the three lannisters made it all to the top 4. I think its safe to say that lannister is still the top tier when it comes to houses. And the 4th was Targaryen to boot. To my mind, this event confirmed to me that Lanni is the top house by far and that the other houses do well with a good player playing them.

Here's the deck I ran yesterday. I built it last Friday and had some fun playing it locally so I figured I'd try it out at a big event to see how it ran. Black Friday 5 (Stark - The White Book) - Plots (7) avg income: 3.8 - Siege of Riverrun x1 Kings of the Sea F49 A Song of Summer x1 A Song of Summer F20 Mutual Cause x1 Core Set B182 Rains of Autumn x1 Core Set B184 The Power of Arms x1 Core Set S200 Rule by Decree x1 Core Set T206 Fury of the Wolf x1 Ancient Enemies F25 - Characters (36) avg cost: 2.4 - Robb Stark x2 Kings of the Sea F33 Randyl Tarly x1 Kings of the Sea F45 Ser Mandon Moore x1 The Battle of Blackwater Bay F117 Ser Osmund Kettleblack x1 Secrets and Spies F98 Sansa Stark x1 Tales from the Red Keep F61 Syrio Forel x1 Tales from the Red Keep F77 Eddard Stark x2 The Tower of the Hand F41 Ser Preston Greenfield x1 The Tower of the Hand F58 Catelyn Stark x1 A Time of Trials F21 The Hound x1 A Time of Trials F37 Ser Meryn Trant x1 City of Secrets F17 Northern Cavalry Flank x2 Scattered Armies F103 Northern Infantry x2 Scattered Armies F104 Bolton Refugee x3 Refugees of War F83 Theon Greyjoy x1 A Change of Seasons F48 Maester Vyman x1 The Winds of Winter F26 Ser Arthur Dayne x1 The Winds of Winter F34 Carrion Bird x2 The Winds of Winter F35 Jeyne Westerling x1 A Song of Summer F6 Carrion Bird x1 A Song of Summer F16 Arya Stark x1 Core Set S7 Hodor x1 Core Set S12 Lady x1 Core Set S15 Jon Snow x1 Core Set S136 Ser Barristan Selmy x1 Core Set B146 Knight of Flowers x1 Core Set B147 Jory Cassel x1 Calling the Banners F101 Old Nan x1 The Battle of Ruby Ford F81 Dacey Mormont x1 Epic Battles F61 - Locations (16) avg cost: 0.4 - Bay of Ice x3 Kings of the Sea F30 Storm Dancer x2 A Time of Trials F23 Northern Fiefdoms x1 Core Set S26 Northern Fiefdoms x1 Core Set S27 Lord Eddard's Chambers x1 Core Set S28 Great Keep x1 Core Set S29 Great Keep x1 Core Set S30 Great Keep x1 Core Set S31 Narrow Sea x3 Core Set S33 Street of Steel x1 Core Set S139 Street of Sisters x1 Core Set B149 - Attachments (3) avg cost: 1 - Icy Catapult x3 The War of Five Kings F12 - Events (11) - The Hand's Judgement x3 The Tower of the Hand F59 Bound by Duty x3 City of Secrets F4 Lethal Counterattack x2 Core Set S158 To Be a Wolf x3 Sacred Bonds F44 I expected to see alot of Lannister and alot of Greyjoy with a smattering of Baratheon, Targaryen, and Stark. I figured with Greyjoy winter being so popular I'd be able to use some of the Winter tech without having to run the White Ravens myself. I hoped the Whitebook would allow me to win enough power defending challenges to put me over the edge. It didn't. After this event, maybe run the Whitebook out of Martell, maybe Targ, but never Stark. Game 1 versus Paul(the eventual champion) /Lannister I opened with a Bay of Ice and decent flop and I should have used my Fury plot to establish board. Instead I opened with Siege of Riverrun. By plot 3 I had to use Vyman to satisfy claim and had no reliable cancel to his kneel effects. Paul was able to win by plot 6 so he didn't have to use his Valar to let me back into the game. He outplayed me and the game was quite enjoyable. Even though Paul isn't well known outside the NYC meta, he's a really good player and can be fun to play against. I guess now his days of anonymity are over. Lost Game 2 versus Josh/Greyjoy Josh has played since Westeros and spent a stint in Bruno's LA Meta. He had a Sea of Storms Greyjoy House Card which I haven't seen in forever. The first few plots were fairly even. He should have Valared earlier, when he had 3 saves on the board to my 0. But he waited to try to rebuild his hand, and he never recoverd well from his own Valar. He probably should have won this game, but I appreciate him taking it easy on my crappy Stark deck. Unfortunately, after that I thought somehow the deck might work which set me up for disappointment in rounds 3 and 4. Won Game 3 versus Jay(Bloodycelt)/Greyjoy Summer Agenda He had a great flop, a great drawback, and saved from my lethal Counterattack during his first Military Challenge. After that it was all down hill. I thought I forgot to cancel his save(which I found out after the game that I couldn't have canceled anyway) and I was out of the game both cardwise and mentally. Jay played a great game and it seems like we always end up playing at NYC events. Well played Jay. Lost Game 4 versus Chris(Greyjoy Chris)/Greyjoy See post above. Lost Game 5 Bye Deck Analysis: Bad build. The real good cards all day were Bay of Ice, Catelyn, Ser Arthur Dayne, and To Be a Wolf. Robb and Eddard and Agenda Armies were Ok. Even though I had a bad build, I don't think Stark has a strong top-4-at-a-major-event build. Hopefully the next cycle of chapter packs will change that. Or Princes. Event Analysis: Well Organized by Jason. Once again everything ran smoothly. And the T-shirts look really cool. Thanks to FFG for the huge banner with the AWESOME Night's Watch art. Everyone agreed that the the banner would be great to take home as a prize. And Also Thank you FFG for the extensive prize support. Almost everyone went home with something. It was great to catch up with old friends and meet new players in the NYC meta. Jason, Chris and the rest of the NY metas are doing a great job of growing the local meta and deserve alot of praise for that. I think this Black Friday had the most local participation of any Black Friday event. Many thanks to Mike and Lars for all the time discussing and prepping for the event. The trip there and back was a blast and I think I laughed more yesterday than I have in a long time. Thanks to all the NYC guys for being friendly and making us provincials fell welcome. Bob, Randy, Mike, Tom, the Braz, the Triplets, Rick, Ethan, John, Mainn, Melnick, Where are you guys?! It doesn't feel like an East Coast event without you guys. The thing that kept running through my mind yesterday was the flashbacks in Storm of Swords to the Tournament at Harrenhall where all the great players of the Game of Thrones came together and the events that led to Robert's Rebellion started brewing. That's how the Black Friday and East Coast Regionals used to be. Now, it doesn't quite feel the same.

Congratulations on the win. Sounds like a good time. I was surprised to see so many Stark decks and so few Lanni and Greyjoy decks. I know Stark is always popular in Europe, but it still surprises me.

Then maybe there would be a prize I want.

On a different not, did anyone else notce that Darkstar is 4 gold. He's always been 3 gold in the past. Renown that expensive these days in the Martell?

There have always been strong non-uniques who have a Westeros flavor. I'm not against them at all. In order for your house to be strong, you need both strong uniques and non-uniques. What I'm against is an optimal deck not needing to run uniques. I think the best cards should be uniques, not that nonuniques should be weak or unplayable. And as long as the LCG keeps the feel of the series, it will never be a race of uniques. Valar Morghulis, all men must die.

I think its a negative if your houses' strongest cards aren't unique. I don't play the game for Castellans of the Rock and Enemy Informants. I play because I like the Ice and Fire Universe and enjoy having Dany or Tyrion on the Board. If the best cards in the games are non-uniques, then I believe there is a flaw in the design of the game. Unique strong characters from the books(POV and Importyant non-POV characters) should be the Game Breaker/Game Changer characters in the game, not generic ally/army character. I realize this is more of a Ned Perspective, and the Jaimes and Shagga will howl. But that's why I play the game and that's what I want from my play experience. Strongest Uniques probably go to Baratheon, though Targ is right there behind them. Targ's problem is that all their strong uniques clog up the 4 gold spot. Baratheon has some stronger uniques in the 3 gold slot. I like the Greyjoy uniques, but they are a distant 3rd. Stark's uniques are more integral to their success as a house than Lannister, but card for card, I think Lannister has much stronger uniques. Lannister uniques tend to be less situational than Stark uniques and their redundant uniques aren't really that conflicting. There is usually a superior version of the Lannister unique that makes the choice obvious.

I really hope that works out for you and your meta. I haven't heard much about the continuation of Standard once the Martell expansion hits, It seems most of the Standard holdouts are coming around to LCG. Our meta prettty much splits with the new guys playing LCG and the old time players playing mostly Legacy or straight Classic. If you guys do go with Standard, I would be interested in seeing what the play environment was like(Strong houses, strategies, etc.) Also, would you guys keep the erratas and bans from LCG? We are thinking about playing LCG without the bans experimentally.

Lars said: LetsGoRed said: (~unless Lars has changes for me to make ). heh, none this time around pencil us in for 3 shirts 2 XL one L....i not 100% on the other 2 but i'm guessing they would be okay with it. Lars was right in speaking for me. I definitely want the shirt and will pay more for it.

Absolutely gorgeous art. I have another question. How much do the events in the book directly effect your art? Do you try to recreate events or are The books merely material you consult to give your art the right feel for the game?

dormouse said: As to World Champion cards always in print and playable as is... I really hope not. First Snow wrecked entire deck types that were nothing about Weenie Swarm. Martell and Greyjoy both had a number of 3 Gold utilitarian characters with 2 STR or less and there was just no way to protect them. My actual swarm decks generally laughed off plot resets because 40 characters with 30 of them at 2 Gold or less always bounced back, and it was extremely easy to force my opponent to play it early. Certain Plots wreck Certain deck types all the time. That's part of the point of having a variety of plots.

I think Bara Summer wanted Targ to keep it summer. Bara Summer rush could normally Rush past Targ before they could lock, though maybe that was a local phenomenon. But didn't Alec's Bara Summer deck place higher that either Dan or Luke's Summer Targ decks at Kingsmoot this past July? I would normally Rank house/build like this right now, based on build not player. 1. Lannister/Kneel 2. Greyjoy/Winter 3. Targaryen/Burn 4. Baratheon/Either Rush or Control 5. Stark/Anything 6. Martell/Anything To me, 3 and 4 are somewhat interchangeable and Stark is 5 only because Princes hasn't hit shelves yet. As soon as Martell gets its Resource base and key uniques, they will probably jump into the top 3.

With streets being 1 per deck, they are fine. I think the environment needs more free, non-limited, conditional reducers, like Summer Port. Income in LCG is too hampered by the Limited Key word.

Kzer-za said: Others plots are generally bad for the game. First Snow shouldn't be reprinted as is. It really cripples any character with 2 strength just because it exists, would make a lot of balanced and interesting characters unplayable or close to it. It would be okay with a restriction - maybe sparing uniques, or allowing saves, or letting each player choose one or two low-strength characters to spare (similar to Wildfire). Threat from the North would probably be too good with Targ. I completely disagree. Either would be a great reprint. A Weenie Reset is Definitely needed right now. I personally would like to see All the World Champion designed cards reprinted as is and to Always remain in the environment.

I was hoping to start a similar thread, so thanks for saving me the time and effort. I was more interested in deck archetypes specifically, but this broad analysis should cover that and more. This is my take on the Three houses listed so far. Stark-I really hope winter is coming , because all they do is win military and lose games. The Winter Mechanic doesn't seem to help them because they can't balance the resources well enough to handle the -1 gold. Multiplayer works for them because they have the time to gradually build up, but a slow start in Joust will kill you. Shadow tech seems too much based on winter to really fill in their holes in Joust. I'm really hoping that the next cycle of chapter packs will fill help fill out the Northmen and take them out of the basement in Joust. It's been a while since Stark has been this bad in Joust. Right now I would say Stark is ranked 5th out of the six houses in Joust, and the only reason they aren't 6th is the Martell expansion has not hit. When Princes of the South releases, they will be firmly entrenched at 6th unless the expansion provide the key cards Stark lacks. Lannister- Absolutely nothing lacking In House except alot of Renown. Gold-check. Draw-check. Effective Character Control-check. Attachment control-check. Location control-check. Play Either Season-check. Strong Shadow Tech-check. They may not play themselves, but they sure as hell can build themselves. The fact that they are still perceived as the top House after Greyjoy won GenCon speaks volumes as to how strong they are. I still would say they are the Top House in Joust, with Greyjoy being their only strong Foil. And with the lack of Rotation in LCG, I don't think their place in the top 2 is in serious jeopardy for long while to come. Baratheon- Always the Bridesmaid....Until the release of the Greyjoy Expansion, Baratheon was the second best house in LCG behind Lannister. With their Summer tech, Vigilant, and alot of Renown, they could hold their own and with a few breaks even beat Lannister kneel occasionally. Their control elemants got stronger with their Shadow tech. But I haven't seen or heard of either Bara Control or Bara Rush being able to consistently hang in there with Lanni and Greyjoy. RIght now I would put Baratheon third in Joust, but they actually have more versatility in deck building than any other House. Baratheon is the only House I can think of with 2 strong builds.

THis was the first thing to jump to mind when I read the article. It's from William Blake's The Everlasting Gospel. The vision of Christ that thou dost see Is my vision’s greatest enemy. Thine has a great hook nose like thine; Mine has a snub nose like to mine. Thine is the Friend of all Mankind; Mine speaks in parables to the blind. Thine loves the same world that mine hates; Thy heaven doors are my hell gates. Socrates taught what Meletus Loath’d as a nation’s bitterest curse, And Caiaphas was in his own mind A benefactor to mankind. Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.

Lars said: sweet, going to see who is able/willing to come form down here. I expect Kevin and I at the least. Yeah, definitely count me in for now. Looks like its time to start building a LCG deck.

dormouse said: People are clamoring for attachment control because attachments are finally having a noticeable effect on games. I don't consider this a bad thing. I am clamoring for attachment control because one of the four houses in the core set and one of the historically most popular houses(Stark) has ABSOLUTELY NO ATTACHMENT CONTROL WITHOUT SPLASHING OUT OF HOUSE. If anyone should have to splash out of house it should be Lannister because they can **** well afford it. And characters with attachments are protected from some of Stark's primary kill cards. When Stark has no players in Joust at GENCON, you know things have gone too far. Stark has always been amply represented at GENCON even when they were not a top tier house. You have the view that it is a good thing for attachments to "finally have noticeable effects on games." I for one have always seen attachments splashed in decks here in the East Coast metas, and thought that their inclusion was equal to their importance. I would say that right now, their effect on the game is disproportional to their cost. Part of the reason attachments were undercosted was their fragility. That fragility has vanished except for Targ and Lannister. I guess on this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

If it's ok to have global character control like Westeros Bleeds and Valar, why is it bad to have global attachment control? Characters are much more essential to avoiding an NPE than attachments.

RJM said: One of the only things I've really missed is any sort of attachment control whatsoever. I would like to see the return of global attachment control in PotS, like Where Winters Last a Lifetime or Weapons at the Door.

dormouse said: The point I was trying to make was we aren't going to see reprints in a Chapter Pack. So we can just ditch the idea of 5KE hatchlings coming back without a Targ expansion or CS2.0. Now new hatchlings is a real possibility in a Chapter pack. I hope the next set will see that happen. I would like to see some sort of trade up ability in the hatchlings if they don't have the ability to dupe. I'm thinking of somthing like Black Hatchling 2 Gold Unique 1 STR Mil Creature. Dragon. Ambush. Black Hatchling may be played on Drogon as a duplicate. Response: After a character's STR is reduced to 0 and killed search your deck for Drogon and put him into play then discard Black Hatchling (cannot be saved). Each hatchling could have a different trigger. Not to be a jerk, but has it been explicitely stated somewhere that we won't see reprints in CP's? If modified reprints are good enough for the Core Set and major expansions(Kings of the Sea, Prince of the South, etc.), why aren't they good enough for CP's?

Not really. We've had new versions of Jaime, Robert, Ned, Cersei, etc in the Chapter Packs. Why not a Chapter pack with new dragons and a separate chapter pack with hatchlings. I'd rather get dragons than "generic Free City Ally" or "generic Dothraki character". I too want the 5KE hatchlings or new hatchlings that become dupes for the Dragons.