DagobahDave
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Posts posted by DagobahDave
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Te compadezco. (I think I'm doing that right.)
For those of you who don't read Spanish, the gist of the post is deep displeasure about the board game feel, the cards, the dice, the 4-player limit, and a sense of betrayal about what has been done to WFRP.
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monkeylite said:
For the record I don't believe I violated anything. As a playtester I can't really say anything about the game...
I take my NDAs very seriously and have acted exactly as instructed, afaict.
I'm sure you do, and I believe that you've been careful about sticking to it.
Cool-guy-smiley is not as effective as I would like in conveying the playful mood I wrote that in.
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Yeah, more than anything else I've seen or read, RuneFang's possibly-NDA-violating posts have been the most encouraging and revealing.
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I'm under the impression that the Adventurer's Toolkit will contain just one complete player's kit, along with those other extras.
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Yeah, nothing new, really.
I think it's going to be a major hassle to exceed the 4 player limit with the core game. You probably won't have enough cards to go around. I'm not crazy about the Adventurer's Toolkit containing just one player kit plus some new careers, since it looks like you're pretty much stuck buying it whether you need the extra player's kit or if you're just interested in the new careers.
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John Tansen said:
So are they getting rid of the talents or are they basing these new actions on the old talents? Or are they career specific?I don't know. I haven't seen anything that resembles a Talent from V2 yet. I'm not sure what governs the kinds of action cards are available to your character, but I'm pretty sure there's a second side to the career card that we haven't seen yet.
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The card packs have a factory-sealed looked to them, but might not be. Other than that, yeah, they look like mostly mockups.
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It wouldn't surprise me if some regular numerical dice end up in there.
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I would guess that all of the card effects are available on their own -- either in a book or in a big cheat-sheet. Pure guess, though.
And some of those "books" definitely looked like mockups. The character sheets look like laser copies. The cardstock miniatures are hand-cut. You can tell they rushed to get it together!
After GenCon I'm sure we'll see lots of good photos of the stuff they laid out.
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Hellebore said:
I'm worried WFRP3's books will look like D&D4th's books. That is, a maths textbook with lots of junk that in the end allow you do to exactly the same as WFRP2nd ed's rules, but take 10x the space to tell you.I can't remember where, it but was mentioned that there's very little chart-referencing at all. It's apparently all on the cards, or otherwise right in front of you.
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Doombot, since you didn't attend the seminar, is it fair to say that your opinion of the game is based only on looking at the materials?
Were you able to deduce very much about the game system? What impression did it give you? You wrote "No, no way" but could you explain why? I can't really tell what your problem with the game is just based on a gut feeling.
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GreyLord said:
It also appears that though you don't need the minis...minis and a tactical map are useful and almost necessary (like 4e, you don't actually NEED them per se), and they even toss in what appear to be stand up replacements for minis and probably a board...err I mean piece of grid paper you put on the table for you to use as well. AT least I'd imagine they were playing something with the WFRP new rules with the minis on the tables...Same as before, you're seeing a game board where there is none. In fact the game's designer said "no game board, no maps."
Cardstock miniatures do not automatically indicate that a game is like Descent, or even like D&D4. It's very common in RPGs. Maybe not the ones you've played, but it is common, or was at one time.
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My previous post is in the wrong thread. Sorry. But everything I wrote is still awesome.
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Kriegtanzer said:
Yeah but the moment of critical injury or death is too late to make that decision. Hmmm...I could have my leg lopped off and bleed to death or run away...
If we're lucky, it'll be this scenario:
You're hurt bad. If you don't run away now, your next hit will be a critical.
Rather than:
Critical hit! Do you want to run away instead?
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John Tansen said:
Do you get all the abilities of the class at once? Say I level from a Troll Slayer to a Giant Slayer, Do I now have ALL of the new classes’ powers? That would be a drastic jump in power instead of the gradual gain in the last two editions. What if some one is slightly behind on EXP, this happens all the time as folks have school and real life issues that might cause them to miss a game, are they going to be behind one career and now are way weaker than the rest of the party?From the looks of the character sheet, advancement is going to be not unlike WFRP2, but it's hard to say. On the character sheet I think I see spaces for "Completed Career Advances" and "Next Career Advances" which looks like it's a little more sophisticated than WFRP2, since it asks you to plan your next advance.
The skills all have three check-boxes, and there are around 20 basic skills. That's identical to WFRP2, and indicates a sort of incremental advancement that we're used to.
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John Tansen said:
Also, the point about how great the cards are because you don’t have to flip though the books to find rules seems pointlessIt looks like many cards are double-sided, and are more than just for reference. It looks like each action has a 'conservative' (green) use and an 'aggressive' (red) use. The same ability can have different effects depending on how you employ it. For the Ranged Shot action card, there are four different results on one side of the card (I can't remember if it's conservative or aggressive). Presumably, the reverse side has a different list of results.
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GreyLord said:
If everything else he's stated seems to be showing up as accurate thus far, why would his other statement of being a hybrid be wrong?
We've been assured at least three times in three places, by credible sources (the lead designer and a playtester, and the game's description) that WFRP3 is very much a roleplaying game.
What does hybrid mean to you, and why is it the focus of this thread? Is a hybrid a bad thing? We can see that the game uses cards and funky dice. That's not unique among RPGs. So what's left to make it a hybrid with a board game? If anything, it's a hybrid of an RPG and a card game.
There are board games that use cards, but they're still board games. Why couldn't WFRP3 be a roleplaying game that uses cards, and is still a roleplaying game?
Check out the snapshots of the character sheets taken at GenCon. Listen to what Jay Little has to say on the FFG GenCon video. I don't think the word hybrid can overrule the other descriptions we've received. Graham actually wrote: "It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but".
But is the important word there.
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This double posting brought to you by FCKeditor.
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Emirikol said:
Don't your players buy you stuff? Maybe you could ask them. I tell my players to buy me stuff they want me to run.
My players don't buy me stuff, but I think it's awesome that yours do. In the end though I think WFRP3 is really going to be a GM's purchase. For what they pay for it, the character sheets and everything will stay in the box, with the GM. Players who spill soda on their character-keepers will find out pretty quickly the cost of the Adventurer's Toolkit -- which looks like it's pretty much a must-buy if it contains new careers.
That $100 price tag is right at the breaking point, I think. It's just high enough to make you hesitate, even if you're like me and really interested in it. It's about $30 higher than most RPGers would be willing to pay for their favoritest game, even at a stretch.
It'll be interesting. In reality I think most of us will be clever enough to get it for less than sticker price.
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GreyLord said:
If everything else he's stated seems to be showing up as accurate thus far, why would his other statement of being a hybrid be wrong?
We've been assured -- at least three times by three credible sources -- that WFRP3 is very much a roleplaying game, and that we can run old WFRP adventures with it.
What does hybrid mean to you, and why is it the focus of this thread? We can see that the game uses cards and funky dice. That's not unique among RPGs. So what's left to make it a hybrid with a board game? Where's the game board? Where's the grid?
There are board games that use cards, but they're still board games. Why couldn't WFRP3 be a roleplaying game that uses cards, and is still a roleplaying game?
Check out the snapshots of the character sheets taken at GenCon. Listen to what Jay Little has to say on the FFG GenCon video. I don't think the word hybrid can overrule the other descriptions we've received. Did you notice that Graham says it's a roleplaying game three times, and says hybrid once? And he actually says "It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but".
But! he said. That's an important but.
Later in the blog entry, Graham reaffirmed that it is, indeed, a roleplaying game. And something about a holy grail. I can't write it without hearing John Cleese.
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ClockworkGecko said:
However FFG seems to have chosen to go with a route intended on competing directly with D&D 4, using many new concepts, and similar lines in relation to D&D4 to gain interest. In the long run it may work. Then again it may be a big flop. WHFRPG as it stands is a good alternative, and doesn't need to be more like D&D. That's one of the cool things about the game. However what's done is done and there is nothing that can be done unless FFG wills it. The new system may turn out to be fun and a good time, and if it is, and it is supported well, then all this talk and complaint is moot.
I definitely think WFRP3 could be an answer and a challenge to D&D4E. WFRP1 and WFRP2 were almost the anti-D&D. If you didn't quite like what D&D was doing and you happened to get in on a WFRP game, you had a fair chance of being converted and never looking back. For me, WFRP1 was the only fantasy game I'd played that let me enjoy my character's flaws as well as their strengths. I appreciated the fact that when I looted a dead Goblin there was nothing of value in its pouches.
My hope is that WFRP3 is still that kind of a game. It needs to set itself apart from D&D by having rich social play and the ability to move at will through the world in an unstructured way, without any guarantee of reward other than the fun of telling the story.
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Silent Star said:
The difference as several posts have already mentioned is that you can spread the cost over several weeks/months and you can buy a book for say $35 read it think it's rubbish never buy anything again. With WFRPv3 your being asked to pay $100 up front with no real idea of what your getting and the hints are that expansion sets will be needed to create a complete game system.
FFG has really great previews of their games, and I'd expect the same for WFRP3. And there will be loads of "sell me" threads on RPGnet and elsewhere to help you make a decision.
And I'm not sure that $100 is really a lot of money any more. I think most GMs do the buying for their groups, and maybe (in spite of the kind of toy-like appeal of the "game pieces") the game is targeted not at younger players necessarily -- but their parents who will buy the game for them, and for old farts like me, and maybe you, and a lot of other Warhammer enthusiasts creeping toward middle age.
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Silent Star said:
Dave on another note I think we get that you are in favour of WFRPv3, now rather than calling us silly or other insults, why don't you try a little human empathy. A large group of people have just been told out of blue that their hobby is ending they willl never get another supplement or any future support for it. The natural reaction to this is anger, the disapointed fans being rude (like I am now) and shouting about how terrible the new game looks is a way of releasing that anger. Once the anger dies down they will most likely become curious about the new edition and then they can approach the game with an open mind. Unfortunately you seem to have decided you need to argue with everyone that is already angry and upset, which makes them even more upset, angry and unreasonable. If you truly want to help your fellow gamers come to terms with the new game then SHUT UP, stop arguing, take the weekend off, let us vent our anger, get it all out of our systems and then on monday explain why WFRPv3 is a good thing. I think you'll find a much more receptive audience at that point.
Some of those people I've argued with (if that's really how you see it) have changed their minds, or softened their initial opinions about the game. Maybe this weekend I want to drop in and be able to discuss the merits of the game without it devolving into this sort of thing, again. It's real tough to post anything positive about the game here, so I have to fire a lot of shots in order for one to get through.
I don't think I've said anything here that would get my a warning at RPGnet, and I certainly haven't made any personal attacks. I've made disparaging remarks about the way others express their frustration, but after the first couple of dozen, it does all start to look like a whole lot of wasted effort. If you look more closely at the material, you see that there's a lot less to worry about.
There I go again.
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That's really old news now, but for the sake of completeness it's a good thing someone posted it here. I'm going to highlight the sections I consider most pertinent:
once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.
The holy grail of any roleplaying system? We're talking about a vessel worthy of holding the blood of a god-king, people. You don't get a better review than that.
which is a good sign in any playtest.
You can say that again!
Overall, I really liked the changes to the game
He really liked it.
I’m liking what Jay has done with the game, and there’s a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World
He's liking it, and a Warhammer game that fits properly into the Warhammer World is a good thing, isn't it? Unless you had some other setting in mind.
Graham McNeil's Post and the future of WFRP...
in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
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Luther said:
There are several books from both editions that seem to wander away from the spirit or intention of the game, depending on your perspective. If I knew more about Graham's writing, I'd probably be able to make a better guess as to whether he'd prefer The Enemy Within over Doomstones.