macd21 said: What they mean is that you can, if you so choose, look at the results on the dice and concoct a story around it. This isn't much different from any RPG with dice (I got a 20 to hit!!! My axe slashes into the monster's hide, spilling his guts onto the floor), but 3ed adds the fact that you can tell what factors influenced the results. For example, Grognar the trollslayer charges the enemy recklessly over dangerous terrain. He rolls his ability dice (2 successes), his reckless dice (1 chaos symbol) and two misfortune dice (1 chaos symbol). Result: a basic hit, but the enemy gets a free attack on him. Looking at the dice, the player desides that Grognars mad charge through the bushes caused him to trip and stumble into the Orc leaving him vulnerable to it's blade, but he manages to maintain enough control to connect his axe to the greenskin's thigh. Had the reckless dice been a success instead of a chaos symbol, he would have scored a critical hit. He could have then described Grognards reckless leap through the bushes, catching the Orc by surprise and smashing his skull in. What'll be interesting is if the game has a solid way to follow up on those story-based effects. Like in the OP's example, will the GM be able to easily make a spot call such as, "Your enraged Dwarf's mace strikes so deep into the Goblin's chest that you need to take a half action to pull it out or switch weapons." The GM could have a "weapon stuck" card to hand out for those occasions. But you don't even need it. You're the GM. If you want to invent some system-appropriate tweak, there's nothing that could possibly stop you. It just won't look as nice, but that can't possibly be a complaint if you're looking for rich roleplaying and don't care about the visuals on the cards at all.

The dice don't seem to dictate anything story-wise. They seem to help, but never force. Apparently you can ignore the story-affecting results if you want. PEACEKEEPER_B: Im just skeptical and still in the court of sure we could create a new edition, but do we have to? It seems the best thing that dedicated V2 players can look forward to is mining V3 for its good ideas and rocking out with WFRP2.3 editions.

Peacekeeper_b said: Sounds to me, based on your theories and idea, like the system is overly complex and you need to cards or you are lost. Like doing Calculus without a calculator. You should be able to record all of the information from the cards onto paper, no problem. The cards are a convenience. That's all they can be in this kind of game. You probably could play it without the cards, but I'll bet it would be really slow and inconvenient. Yeah, it's a marketing strategy but it might also be a great idea for gaming. I think the intent was not that they wanted to build a complex game just for the sake of complexity. I think they wanted to do more than the previous editions and that's necessarily going to be a more complex game. I think they looked at cards and tokens as a way to keep the complexity manageable.

vyrago said: "you must spend a half-action to free your blade or switch weapons." Those are kind of meta-descriptors, too -- half-action, switch weapon (which would involve a free action). See what I mean? You're using rules and game terminology to help tell a story. Same thing in WFRP3. And you'll be using most of the same terms from earlier editions. (Probably not half-actions, though.) Attributes are almost all the same. Skills look like they're about the same, and used in very much the same way. You have careers and gradually get better in them. The GM is in control of the story, from everything that I've seen.

vyrago said: a real test of this game will be revealed by its handling of experience or rewards. if this game starts to award experience weighted towards combat, its a good indicator that this is more of a party/battle/action game and not really a roleplaying game. I suppose I may have to accept that this game will be more of a romp than an epic tale. I even read somewhere that although Fantasy Flight is following the D&D 4e trend, they went a step further with the dice and actions cards to discourage 'piracy' and illegal downloading of PDFs. You're getting the wrong impression. And listening to us speculate about the dice mechanics isn't going to help. Did you read The Facts About WFRP3 thread? That's the place to start. It looks like a board game. It's an RPG, and it looks like a **** fine one to me. It might not be your thing, but it's not what you're thinking it is. If it matters to you, I'm a 20+ year WFRPer and I love both of the earlier editions. If you don't like what you see, I understand because it doesn't look like an RPG to me, either. Somehow, it is.

Good stuff, mac21. macd21 said: These three results can all result from a single dice roll - so you could get a critical hit, but still suffer a free attack from the enemy. Or miss, but get a free manoeuvre. I've thought a little about if you can get multiple results from the same card. I'm not sure you can. Since there's a 1-hammer result "You hit the target for normal damage" and a 3-hammer result "You hit the target for +2 damage" it might be that you can only take one of them, since they overlap. However, maybe you can apply 4 rolled hammers to attack twice (with one of those attacks at +2 damage). If you roll enough hammers to trigger effect A and enough eagles to trigger effect B, are they played in the order they're presented on the card, or does the player choose? I think the 'bad' symbols are Chaos stars, or maybe skulls? I wonder if those trump all other rolls. But since they're at the bottom of the card, if you take all effects from top to bottom, then you might get in a decent attack but still end up with a nasty counter-attack coming your way. Lot of neat possibilites there, but it seems like it could be really slow to resolve rolls that trigger lots of effects. This makes me think that you only get one result per roll, but I've got no real idea how you'd go about choosing which symbols get used and which don't.

You're not the only one. Check out this thread, which covers just about every fact and opinion and rumor: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=176741

I'm expecting that the box kind of flips open and becomes a playset. You set up your miniatures on walls and behind battlements. The cards will be loaded into spring-guns so that you can fire them at the minis you've set up.

Ron B. Stard said: In my opinion I too have presented valid arguments why this game will 'suck', and nobody has confronted my views on this game either. Are you really going to stand by that statement? All of your arguments have been discussed. I'm not saying that your opinions are wrong, but they have been addressed and confronted with arguments that are just as valid. You're making it very difficult to speak directly to you because of your abrasive and dismissal tone. You know, I've noticed that the trolls from the last few days are gone. They're gone. Apparently the moderators are here and they're doing their job. You've probably got one of your snide posts left before they come down on you. Fair warning. Because I'll be the one who reports you. I thought you'd have cooled down by now but you're continuing to troll. Play nice or go away.

Ron B. Stard said: So there's still hope for you then, and with the Emperor's guidance we may yet guide you to the light! You just might. Cheers!

Ron B. Stard said: Besides, if all of your posts about WFRP 3rd edition are always 100% positive, and if you always charge to the rescue when ever bad remark is made of the game, then in my books that makes you a fanboy. Well if that's what it takes to be a fanboy, I haven't seen anyone be 100% positive about the game or defend it on every level. There are lots of aspects of the game that concern me and I hope we'll be able to discuss them in the future without seeming hostile to one another. I really hope to see you around later when we're all a little cooler.

There's a little tiny symbol in the lower corner. You can see it on the Troll Slayer and Hired Swords cards. It's a tiny wreath, I think. For the core set. Aww. For those of you who don't play card games, it's common for each card in a set or expansion to be marked with a unique symbol. You can easily exclude cards from sets that you don't want to use. I don't see why you'd want to do that with an RPG, though, so I'm not expecting the wreath symbol to have any function.

Ron B. Stard said: I care enought about WFRP that I have been playing it from 1988 or thereabouts, what I don't like is they way it seems to be headed, ok? You seem to be expressing more anger than I think is appropriate for a game that's just a casual thing for you. I'd say that makes you a fan of something. If I wanted to be insulting I could easily add -boy to the end, but let's not do that.

Server Goddess would be happy, though.

You're probably right, jadrax. V2 might be as healthy or healthier than those games. I've been looking around for the GenCon RPG events schedule, but I'm failing. It'd be interesting to see how many games were going, and for what games. In retrospect, it's easy to see that V2 was finished. FFG is a big operation compared to some of those other game companies. With a larger payroll and overhead, FFG expects their RPGs to sell better. In game-board-company-think, that means they have to be loaded with things that players will find valuable. It's the perfect recipe for a big-scale dramatic revitalization of the brand, appealing to a broader audience than just WFRP players, and even beyond just roleplayers. I don't think they could have continued to support V2 through the end of its natural lifespan and still met their bottom line. Black Industries didn't seem to be able to pull it off either, and the game really felt like it was in its prime when they boarded up. V2 probably got as far as anyone could have taken it without considering another line of work. By the way, it's awesome to see so many WFRP fans showing that they value something that can't easily be put onto a card and think they're unnecessary for a good RPG. They might be right.

Youch, Hellebore. I don't think V2 is as popular as we'd like. I'm just judging it by the forum traffic on FFG, Strike-to-Stun and RPGnet about this game, as compared to Vampire: The Requiem discussions on White Wolf's site alone. Maybe we're just not as vocal as some other gamers, but considering the sudden show of love and support for V2 that's cropped up recently, I have to wonder what those folks have been doing this whole time. I'd love to think that it's because they were all playing V2 so much, but I don't really believe that.

Ron B. Stard said: I know full well that you don't need to pay fanboys anything, they'll happily proclaim the 'superior' nature of their infatuation to the end of the world. That is the nature of the Internet. Fanman. And don't try to be passive about. If you think I'm a fanboy, call me one. Are you only somewhat interested in Warhammer? If you have only a passing interest in either of these games, I'll keep that in mind. But it looks like it matters to you enough to come here and talk about it. What's your interest in it?

OGULETH: Lack of taking advantages of stuff not out for 2nd ed (or 1st ed for that matter), and instead the same thing done over again, not refreshing anything. (Or if they are remaking it as heroic fantasy with stances and challenges, well, that's even worse). Sounds like you won't be happy either way. If it isn't different, you won't like it. If it is different, that's worse? OGULETH: Boardgame/cardgame/flashy replacements. Having played rpgs for over 15 years now I think, the amount of extra "junk" I have gotten from boxes and so on is astounding, yet not once has it helped much. (Earthdawn 1st ed cards for some items and monsters etc seemed a good idea when buying it, but quickly got scrapped. I have to agree with you about the cards in Earthdawn. They're still attached to my ED1 rulebook! (Oh man, I want that Wrestling Mask of Oltion.) The cards in Earthdawn were strictly for reference, though. V3's cards are used to look up information (how does my ability work?), keep track of new things you acquire temporarily or permanently (such as wounds and insanities), and some of the cards are dual-sided to take advantage (or to be an excuse to introduce) the stance system. They're not just reference cards. They seem to doing a lot of useful things, from a roleplay point of view. But you really need to buy into the idea of stances before you're going to like the cards. If you don't like stances, the cards are probably going to make things worse for you. OGULETH: The moment I want to change anything, it ends up being WAY more difficult, or would remove some of the appeal with post it notes on the careers, items or other things instead of having one in my book for easy reference - or a handwritten sheet of paper added onto the gm screen. All RPGs have this problem. Adding your post-its reduces the aesthetic appeal. I'm sure we'll cope with that. I'm hoping that FFG releases blank card templates or includes a few in the core set, though. OGULETH: From what I see about 3rd ed, it tries to shoehorn players into something... much like boardgames or cardgames That's a possibility, but I don't see any evidence for that. I think what you mean by "shoehorning" is that the GM won't have control over the story, or that the game will be focused on combat almost the exclusion of social interaction. I don't think that's the case at all. The promo includes a description of what V3 thinks roleplaying is all about. The stress tracker, which looked really restrictive and board-gamey to me, is actually controlled entirely by the GM's sense of how the PCs are getting along. I love that part of it. There's a second aspect to it, where players can add some of their abilities to the whole party -- which sounds card-gamey to me and I'm not sure if I like it. But maybe that's not as restrictive as it looks, either. Fingers crossed. OGULETH: Even having a player cap included! If you read the promo again, you'll see that there's no player cap. The game is "best suited" for four players but adding extra players is "easy". People at GenCon reported that you could play with more than four players using the core set, no problem. Your extra players will probably have to go back to using just paper rather than cards (which might be as simple as photocopying a couple of pages from the rulebook). OGULETH: The cost. I know. I know. $100 is a lot of money to drop on a game you're not sure you're going to like. Wait for the player reviews. If they're all five-star, drop hints that maybe you'd prefer bookstore gift cards for Christmas.

I've noticed that oldscool calls it "wuhfrup" on Small But Vicious Podcast. I usually just call it "Warhammer" -- around here, it's synonymous with WFRP.

ChaosChild said: I'd just like to pick up on this point if I may, because I agree with this 100%. I can't help thinking that someone at FFG who's more familiar with the boardgame market (no, it's not a boardgame, I accept that now) came up with the idea for all the components. Guys, we gotta make this fit into a space designed for this, using only these.

Forum posts from November, 2009: Guys, I'm downloading the new rulebook PDF now. Are the cards included in there? Do I just print them and cut them out? Auughh! Why'd they get rid of the cards between first and second edition??? That was my favorite part of the game! What happened to my WFRP? Sorry, but if it doesn't have hammers on the dice, it's NOT Warhammer. They shot my puppy. No, really. Chris shot my puppy. I was walking along, looking for some snow to shovel, and out of nowhere -- BANG. Dead puppy. And I look up and there's Chris. He's like, haha! FFG pwnz you!

Ron B. Stard said: It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG. Why would they, since I'm already doing that for free? Ask yourself what I have to gain from doing that. All I want is a good game I can design fan-made supplements for. Since those don't make me any money whatsoever -- and since I don't work in the games industry and I don't even pick up freelance work based on my WFRP stuff -- this becomes a big investment of my time. It's strictly because I love Warhammer. Also, I like to roll with the new. This looks like a great game, but I'm probably better-informed about it than you are. I certainly know more than you do if you still think this is a board game. I'd be happy to point you toward many other sources that have convinced me of that -- but I've got a feeling you'd reject those out of hand, since I probably can't be trusted.

Ron B. Stard said: What's wrong with all these cards and the dice etc. is that it all leads to less roleplaying, simply because the players will think 'I need this card or that to improve my skill/chance/whatever', or 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' and so on. It leads to board game mentality even if the game is NOT A BOARD GAME! (methinks mylady protests too much...) Most of the cards seem to be taking the place of ordinary RPG effects. Players might think, "I really want that skill or talent -- it would help me out in that situation." That skill or talent might be written on a card, instead of in the rulebook. Instead of copying down the skill when you finally have the XP to acquire it, your GM hands you a card to save you the trouble. It doesn't seem to be all that much different from V2 in that respect. The party mechanics do seem to have that "I want that card, how do I get it for my use next turn?" aspect to them. I hope they're not too gamey. Also, we currently think "I need to roll a 33 to hit him", so it's not a big difference if you start to think "I need 5 hammers". I can't be any worse than thinking about percentages in the middle of a fight -- which are anything but immersive.

Captin', that helps me see where you're coming from. I really appreciate that you wrote out an answer. You might be right -- that could be the experience that we're going to get. Let's hope FFG posts up some previews this week, since it really does seem to be a lack of information that's leading a lot of people to form a negative opinion.

CHERNOBYL: This mechanic sounds an awful lot like Arkham, where you have to set all your points every turn. A few other people have noticed that, but I've never played it. Anybody care to explain how Arkham does it? CHERNOBYL: So are they [cards] not in the books? that's my question. better hope we don't lose a card. I'd really like to know that, too. I think it was Hellebore on the Strike-to-Stun forum who wanted to know how NPCs are handled. Are they on cards? Are they in books? How detailed are NPCs? Are there going to be NPC party cards, just like for PCs? Maybe they use the same cards?