DagobahDave
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Posts posted by DagobahDave
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I should make it clear that I don't know that FFG is going to preserve the "purely a game aid" idea throughout the design of the game. They might throw in a bunch of story-dictating language and miss the whole point of roleplaying as we WFRPers have come to understand it.
But now that the idea has been articulated, I hope others will latch onto it and make more of it in their own games.
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GreyLord said:
DagobahDave said:
Dagobah Dave said:
Why would anyone design a big-name, big-budget, must-succeed game that would be full of such obviously poor design choices? I mean, those would be horrible choices. Awful.http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome
[sarcasm on]
Wow, OD&D, D&D, AD&D, all by TSR really killed the industry
and now by the above linked page...
4e seems to have lost them the entire RPG industry...WOW!!!
[/sarcasm off]
Actually though, I thought you were ALL FOR this new system...weren't you?
You've been singing enough praises to it that I thought I could sell you beach front property in the middle of the Sahara if I just called it WFRP v4 and mentioned a that it would be grim and dirty as well as having new dice and a new dynamic.
And from what I see, this new system is going to have similar, as you put it..."obviously poor design choices? I mean, those would be horrible choices." as per your statement.
Hmmm, interesting.
When it's out of context, it's not clear that I was talking specifically about WFRP3. I'm referring to WFRP3 as the "big-name, big-budget, must-succeed game".
So the design choices that would be bad for WFRP3 (identical starting characters, mooks that use different rules) might be good for some other game -- and in fact have been. I'm not disputing that.
And yeah, I like a lot of what I've seen in V3. I've also expressed plenty of doubts. You can check out my profile and read all of my posts if you want to see for yourself, since I'm not going to repeat them over and over.
The good stuff is worth repeating, though.
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I'm cross-posting this from Geek-Do (with a few edits):
rpg.geekdo.com/thread/433057/page/3
Some people like GM's screens, but I find them obstructive. Cards are a much better way for me to find what I need and still be able to see my players.
So what has my GM's screen become now that it's on cards? Am I playing a card game yet? Maybe. But I'm still just roleplaying. The cards aren't forcing me to change anything about the story.
What if I want to use both sides of the cards? It seems like an awful lot of wasted space to just use one side. What can I put on the back sides?
Well, the problem is that if I put information on the back of a card I'm using the front of, it's not very convenient at all. So I kinda need to put something on the back that I'm only going to use once in a while -- or when I'm not using whatever's on the front of the card.
Hey, you know what would be a cool way to make use of both sides? You could have two different 'modes' to be in -- like, you could be aggressive, or you could be more laid back. When you want to change your mode, you just flip the card over.
It's a little card-game mechanic (flip a card over) used for roleplaying. Do you think that makes it a card game, or a board game? Is it a hybrid?
I'm still just roleplaying. The cards don't dictate my actions to me -- I use them as I would use any skill or talent. Except now I have two ways to use each of my abilities.
Once you've got this cards-helping-the-game idea in mind, you're going to look for ways to expand on it. Using larger cards to place your little cards on might be a neat way to organize things, so that all of your fighty actions are over in one corner and your social actions are in another. Just for convenience. (And maybe we can come up with some interesting ways to make use of where we place our cards. That gives us a third function from the cards, if we want it.)
So what's happened to my GM's screen? Heck, I've got half a new game worked out just because I decided to put things on cards. And it's still just an RPG. The cards aren't telling me what to do; I'm the one choosing how to use the abilites described on them.
Comments most welcome.
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I'm one of the Reverse Engineers of the Concurrentist First Wavers Advance Group.
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You only get points for Drei.
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I got tired of talking about the game. I already pretty much know how it's all gonna work anyway.
It's like you use the dice to create pillars, and then you put the character-keeper boxes on the pillars to create roofs. Instant minis terrain.
The minis talk to each other using the cards. The cards have a single word on them like "Rat" or "Chaos" or "Pickle".
You play your cards until you have a sentence spelled out, and then you have to stand up and read the line in character.
The GM decides who gave the best line, and then moves that mini one die-width in a random direction. That character gets dHammer experience points.
Okay, your turn.
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Foolishboy said:
Perhaps we should explore some more constructive alternatives before considering Mass Suicide.
No, no. It's usually somebody else who puts us up there.
It's all in fun, guys. Just noticed how symbolic my avatar is. It's like the story of WFRP in one image -- the games, the fans, the grimdark. I knew I picked it for a good reason when I switched to it couple of months ago. But at the time I just didn't know there would be Three.
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That my avatar is freaking awesome. Yes. They shall all hang. The grogs. The bois. The newbs. All of them. Three. The magic number.
I'm a fanatic and a hater of all three. We may all hang. But they shall never lose sight of us. Say it with me:
For Sigmar!
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Necrozius said:
Some of these bleeding heart, martyr WFRP v2 fans made some of the worst inflammatory and nasty posts I've ever read on these forums.
This message board is now a better place without their frothing nerd rage and condescending trolling.
You know, if Foolishboy is telling me to calm down, it's probably worth looking back over the posts I've made this week and see if maybe I'd dished out more than I should have. So I looked back over the threads. I definitely did some slinging, but the angry reactions really were out of hand.
What bothers me about this topic -- now that I've taken the time to answer the questions -- is the way the points are phrased. You have to step over insinuations of poor design or wrongdoing before you can get to something worth discussing.
I want to be helpful here, so I've thought of some ways to pose the questions so that FFG won't feel backed into a corner before answering.
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1. Are you concerned that the game's price may keep it out of reach of most gamers' budgets?
2. Can you tell us how you arrived at the use of cards and tokens for the game?
3. How will we be able to replace damaged or lost components? Will there be blank cards or extra tokens for this eventuality?
4. The game seems radically different from earlier editions. Will it be easy to convert characters?
5. Should we expect the new game to match the look and feel of more recent Warhammer games such as Age of Reckoning?
6. Were you aware that many fans were expecting new releases for WFRP2 prior to the announcement of the new edition?
7. Are there any plans to continue producing material for WFRP2?
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The following post is as cool as I ever am, and I do apologize if anyone feels I've been unfair to them.
PRICE POINT: The high price is for the convenience of not having to keep track of everything with a paper and pencil. They could bring the price down by drastically changing the way the game works and eliminating the convenience of the cards and tokens, and the game would probably look more like a 'normal' RPG.
In the end, it seems that FFG is banking on the convenience of the game to sell it to Warhammer players. If that's not what we want, their sales will show it. There's no question that WFRP3 is designed to appeal to all kinds of hobby gamers, too, and I expect that there will be some crossover customers just based on the looks of the materials you get for $100.
Really, I'd guess that the $100 tag is the result of design choices that were probably guided by sales expectations. Nobody said capitalism was pretty!
TOO MANY BITS: This complaint is really related to the game's design -- the fact that there's a use for bits in the first place. Hopefully FFG will have an easy way to replace missing or lost parts so that this is not a problem.
TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE: It doesn't look like a complete overhaul. It's very different, but I see lots of resemblances to the earlier editions. Conversion doesn't look terribly difficult from where I'm standing. You remember how Attacks worked in V1, and how they were changed for V2. I think the differences are going to be like that. You can't easily translate V1's Attack characteristic to V2 because they work differently -- incompatibly, since V2's Attacks don't even come into play unless you use the Swift Attack which didn't exist in V1.
Some of V3 will be easy to convert, I think. Some of it won't. But I'm sure somebody will figure out how to translate characters from V2 to V3 and they'll post those ideas online. It won't be a perfect fit, but I think it'll be possible.
SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY: The setting is what it is, and we can't expect FFG to present a darker, grittier version of the Warhammer world than is currently being promoted by Games Workshop. Jay's recent thread is encouraging on the grim-and-gritty angle, though.
THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR: I don't remember being promised any new WFRP books specifically, so maybe they pulled an Obi-Wan. "What I told you was true, from a certain point of view." It's not cool, but I'm trying to keep in mind that FFG doesn't owe the fans nearly as much as Black Industries does/did.
This point is an emotional one, and so it's going to be different for everybody. FFG didn't force me to buy anything or swindle me into buying the PDF rulebook when V3 was already in development. I'm the only one who's responsible for how I spend my money. Knowledge is power, evidently! You don't give away your secrets if your secrets are making you money. That's just business as usual. But if I'm being totally honest, I want FFG to be better than that.
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LUTHER: None of whaty I posted are questions. They are collected points.
If that's true, then what did you mean when you wrote this?
LUTHER: All my points are the results fo collecting the concerns of posters spread all over this board and puttign them in a form that Jay or anyone else who has played the game can answer.
So they're not questions, but you'd like answers. They're just a collection of things that you think are flawed about the game and its marketing that no one is expected to answer.
Yeah, I had kinda figured that out.
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jadrax said:
I am not 100% sure that driving people away before they can even see the previews is a achievement actually a worth cheering over.
I don't know that Jay's even the right person to ask about the whole V3 "sneak attack". FFG has other people for public relations, so that's probably a quesion for them.
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LUTHER wrote: All the bits and bobs necessary to the games function push the price point up too high. For a starter set, it is out of the range of most (sensible) gamer's budgets and will most likely cause a more than a few new gamers to pass it up for D&D4E or some other, cheaper, substitute. To add to that, there is no way to 'preview' the game, say by flipping through the books, to know if it is a worthwhile use of a C-Note.
That's a loaded question. Actually, it's not a question at all. What is this asking?"It costs too much for sensible gamers. Without a preview, how can we know if it's worth $100?"
Before he can address that issue, Jay would have to diplomatically dismantle your assumption that only stupid gamers with a lot of money are interested in this game.
It might be some good news to you to know that Jay's already said previews are the on the way. And you can always wait for customer reviews to help you make up your mind
Luther, it was easy to pick apart your question for what it was (a rant) and answer your question about previews without insisting that the game designer (who is busy) pay attention to you and the disappointed fans that you want to represent.
That's a dwindling number, by the way. You can see the shift in opinion from six days ago on every forum where they're talking about it. Rants like these will keep cropping up (and being compiled into new posts and posted up again) for a while but eventually we'll turn to the game itself and discuss its merits and flaws in a reasonable way.
Until then I'll still be here, eating crow.
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vyrago said:
As I understand it, there are those who have already seen this game in action at Gen Con and been to seminars held by FFG. I wont comment on the playtesters since I know they are bound by an NDA. but seriously, what is all the secrecy about?
I think it was just a presentation, not a working demonstration. But Jay wrote that he's working on designer diaries and previews to show us what's up. I think he's gonna need an asbestos keyboard, no matter what he tells us.
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Luther said:
TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE
One of the big complaints about 4E was the lack of backwards compatibility with previous editions. From the looks of things, WFRP3e does this to the nth degree. Outside of setting material (which may also be different), it appears that using 1-2e stuff with 3e and vice-versa, will be extremely challenging if not downright impossible.
Shadowspawn, where's the room for discussion in there? How can anyone make the impossible seem possible to Luther? He doesn't invite debate or discussion. It's a list of complaints and that's all. Not a single positive (or even hopeful) thing to say about the game.
And if Luther had really read every thread here -- even just the first post on the facts about WFRP3 thread -- he could have listed some of the reasoned explanations that have been offered for his complaints before expecting anyone to re-hash them for him.
But he's ignored or dismissed every one of them already. So how can anything we say here change that?
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LUTHER: I've been reading over al lthese threads and decided to gather the most realistic complaints ('it isn't an RPG' is not one of them) into one thread to try and clarify why so many folks are up in arms and try to work those out.
Nope, it's just the same rant we've seen many times before. You haven't left any room for argument that the game might actually be a good one. If, after reading all of the these threads (which even I can't claim to have done), you still have these complaints, then there's nothing any of us can say to convince you.
So don't try to pass it off as anything but a rant. Give us something that you do like about the game that we can talk about.
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HELLEBORE: There's no way Str1 can balance against PCs with Str4 due to the reliance on specialist dice with a small chance of rolling successes.
When you're reverse-engineering a game system based on fragmentary information, the words "there's no way" should never be used! Help us figure out how they solved it, not how they put up with it.
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Hellebore said:
Are PCs identical at chargen? Are all sword masters 3 dice WS and 2 dice Dodge? Do NPCs use the same actions as PCs? Ie the oft touted 'ranged shot' ability. Is that a PC only ability or is it just 'an ability' that anyone with a ranged weapon can use?Why would anyone design a big-name, big-budget, must-succeed game that would be full of such obviously poor design choices? I mean, those would be horrible choices. Awful.
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Cat that Walked by Himself said:
Yes. And my favorite LP ever is The Pet Sounds. Make out of that what you will
I have no idea how we got onto this topic.
My roommate recorded himself doing the entire Pet Sounds album using only his body and voice, no instruments. Crazy stuff.
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VYRAGO: I think this narrarative dice issue is going to cause problems for some. new players will probably love it, as it 'spices up' otherwise mundane dice rolling. but creative roleplayers will start to see the same results over and over and wish for something more.
Bear in mind that I only know what I've picked up from the internets. This is what I've put together so far, for what it's worth.
Think of any action you might roll for, whether it's a combat action, lockpicking or a drinking contest. Each situation should be unique, because you're roleplaying. Each lock is different -- the lighting, the amount of time you have, the picks in your kit might not be good for this one. Whatever. You've roleplayed your way to this point, now it's time to roll. The dice add some story element. Hourglass=Time was a factor. Comet=Faith was a factor. Sun=Smarts were a factor.
Succeed or fail, you would have some story element to work with. It's totally random, so you should ignore it if it doesn't help. But if it does help the story, then that drives the next action, maybe in a significant way.
It's going to be different every time, because each situation will be different. No two locks are the same. Now, no two swings of the axe have to be the same. That's pretty cool, I think. It only becomes repetitive if the GM keeps putting the characters into the same situations all the time, right? The game can't make you a good GM, but it sure looks like it's trying to give you every advantage.
VYRAGO: lets assume the dangerous terrain is a shallow swamp and the player says he wants to wade into the swamp and taunt the orc into joining him in the mire and would like to prepare a savage blow for him when he takes the challenge. how would 3e handle that? I suspect there is no action card for taunt...I don't know how much you can get done on your turn, or how many actions you can take or anything, but I think this is how it's going to go down:
Taunt should be covered by the skill Intimidate. (Or maybe it's its own action. If not, I've created the first house rule for V3. Use Intimidate.) That skill is actually listed for the Troll Slayer.
So you'd make a skill test. Opposed test: your Intimidate vs. the Willpower. I don't know how opposed tests will be handled but I'm sure the game will have them. If the Orc wins the opposed test, your taunt fails. (Oh, and you rolled a Comet.) Something about faith, faith... You threw a religious symbol at the Orc and told him to come taste Ulric's wrath. But he laughed at you and threw back a rude gesture, then told you to come get some Waaaaah! if you really think you're so tough, manling.
Now let's say your taunt is successful and you rolled a Sun along with it. Smarts. Well, that's easy. You quite calmly point out to him that he's the smallest Goblin you've ever seen, and he loses his mind with rage. Here he comes!
VYRAGO: I suspect there is no action... for readying an action to be used later.Seriously, after the awesome you just read, do you care? Okay, V2 has a Delayed Action. If there's any place for them in the V3 combat system, I'm sure they'll be there.
VYRAGO: im betting its all self contained within your turn and you can do about 7 different things either cautiously or recklessly. Im gonna guess Charge,Melee Attack, Ranged Attack, Manuever, Cast Spell, Use Item and Dodge.There are also around 20 basic skills listed on the character sheet, so I'd expect to be able to do a lot more, as well. And there are ways to contribute some of your character's abilities to benefit the entire group using the adventuring-party cards, which are going to affect your character (and others) in ways that we haven't really seen yet.
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macd21 said:
In this case, Grognar suffered the free attack because of his recklessness and the fact that he was moving through difficult terrain. The player could choose to take that into account when describing what happened - or not. It's a factor that some people will like and use, others ignore.I think mac's saying that those effects -- the words I've highlighted in the quote -- those are the kinds of story-based effects that the dice should give you. It's nothing more than flavor (well, difficult terrain might have a mechanical effect, but let's skip it for now).
I'm not sure they're entirely story-based, but at least two people from the GenCon seminar mentioned this aspect of the dice.
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vyrago said:
I hope the action cards have really cool names like "strike of the winter wolf" and "Thunderous Smash of the Thunderous mountain thunder" so that all the non-wizards can sound like theyre doing something cool too!!!So far we've seen one called Ranged Shot, which is just what it sounds like -- shoot a ranged weapon. There's also Dodge and Melee S[trike] (I think). Looks pretty standard to me.
Very likely, there will be some cool-sounding action cards -- but probably nothing more snazzy than the Talents in V2. "Grudge-Born Fury" is pretty flavorful, but why change a name that fits, if you don't have to?
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REQUETE: WTF kind of sissy crap is that?
Maybe it's just like a Fate Point from either of the earlier editions? Maybe you only get a limited number of those. I wouldn't assume too much about that rule just based on that short description. It doesn't tell us anything about how wounds or criticals work, or what they do to your character exactly.
REQUETE: More D&D4E style "your character is a beautiful snowflake rockstar azzkickr and nothing bad ever happens to him" nonsense? Or full bore narrative-indie "storytelling cooperative hippie drum circle where our ludopoetic commune collectively decides what happens... and of course we all live and win and are groovy, man" ultranonsense?
Un-flipping-believable.
So it's like D&D4E. No, it's like an indie game.
Nail in the coffin? No! It must be piton! Or, it must be a needle! Could not possibly be a nail.
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Foolishboy said:
A fact that will impact play, if and I stress the "if" you need to use cards and all the other Board Game stuff it will cause issues, Players will mess about with the bits and bobs rather than play.Maybe. My players doodle and strum their guitars during play. No matter what's around us, the game's happening in our heads. I can't see that it would hurt to have a bunch of lush Warhammer imagery in front of us at all times, and having the full details of almost any action we want to take placed right in front of us so we rarely have to reach for a book.
But if your players start getting rough with the pieces, you just go, "HEY. I paid A HUNDRED DOLLARS for this stuff. Take it easy." Bad joke, but somebody's gonna end up saying it for real some day.
Why are there cards in this RPG? Here's my best guess.
in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Posted
As I understand it, the game is "best suited" for four players, but apparently you can add more. I think it means that there might not be enough dice or cards to fully equip every player beyond the fourth one.
There's an Adventurer's Toolkit planned that's supposed to make up for it. I'm not sure what's in it. It might contain only enough materials for a single player, but I've also heard that it contains more than that. Wait and see, I guess.